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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/21/2004 11:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone,
Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
Now we may ask, "Who makes people be born in one nation or another?" God does, and thus we must conclude that man's choice is not primary in salvation, most Jewish people in Isaiah's day, in Paul's day, and in our day, have not had a really free choice, most of them cannot come, while they are on earth, until their turn comes again, and thus salvation is based on God's decision, and not ours.
Blessings,
Lee
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 11/21/2004 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Now we may ask, "Who makes people be born in one nation or another?" God does
please explain what you mean by this. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/21/2004 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi all-
(1) Why think God determines each person’s birth and so “makes” people be born in one nation or another? What’s wrong with imagining God to have given to humanity the ability to have babies? Imagine that. To argue that God “makes people be born” is begging the question. Does God do that? Well, he’s certainly able to. But must he? I don’t see that he must, or that he’s less than God should he actually leave the general business of getting pregnant to human beings.
(2) No free will theist I know argues that human agency is “primary” in salvation. It doesn’t have to be primary, Lee. It can be secondary. It just has to be real and responsible when it does come in to play.
(3) You go from arguing that our choice in salvation isn’t primary to excluding it altogether. Why do that? Why can’t God be the primary agent in salvation (stategist, provider, pursuer, lover, convicter, sender, savior) AND our choices play SOME real part that’s NOT played by God, i.e., we can’t say “yes” without his help but we can say “no” in spite of his help? We certainly live with this kind of reality in all our other relationships, so one can’t argue libertarian free will doesn’t make sense if how we live the vast majority of the time assumes such agency.
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/22/2004 1:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
My responses are based upon my contention that the FUTURE regeneration of ALL Israelites seems to be prophecied clearly.
quote:
(1) Why think God determines each person’s birth and so “makes” people be born in one nation or another? What’s wrong with imagining God to have given to humanity the ability to have babies? Imagine that. To argue that God “makes people be born” is begging the question. Does God do that? Well, he’s certainly able to. But must he? I don’t see that he must, or that he’s less than God should he actually leave the general business of getting pregnant to human beings.
If the future regeneration of ALL born Israelites is true, as a literal reading would suggest, then it just seems improbable that ONLY and ALL Israelites will be regenerated in the future kingdom if free-will is to be the deciding factor. Not only that, but it would prove that God knows free-will choices beforehand.
quote:
(2) No free will theist I know argues that human agency is “primary” in salvation. It doesn’t have to be primary, Lee. It can be secondary. It just has to be real and responsible when it does come in to play.
Your right philosophically, of course, but the verses taken literally seem to rule out your argument on probablity grounds.
quote:
(3) You go from arguing that our choice in salvation isn’t primary to excluding it altogether. Why do that? Why can’t God be the primary agent in salvation (stategist, provider, pursuer, lover, convicter, sender, savior) AND our choices play SOME real part that’s NOT played by God, i.e., we can’t say “yes” without his help but we can say “no” in spite of his help? We certainly live with this kind of reality in all our other relationships, so one can’t argue libertarian free will doesn’t make sense if how we live the vast majority of the time assumes such agency.
Ditto my response from #2. As I told Lee, if you don't take the verses literally, then you come out looking quite different. But why shouldn't they be taken literally? Why can't God regenerate ALL Israelites in a future kingdom? Maybe this argument has already been hashed out on this forum, but I'm not aware of it.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/22/2004 4:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Jeff: If the future regeneration of ALL born Israelites is true, as a literal reading would suggest, then it just seems improbable that ONLY and ALL Israelites will be regenerated in the future kingdom if free-will is to be the deciding factor.
Yes, that's a good point, God predicts both ways, "Most of these will not be saved, and yet these others all will be saved."
quote:
Lee: Now we may ask, "Who makes people be born in one nation or another?" God does…
GIT: please explain…
TGB: Why think God determines each person’s birth and so “makes” people be born in one nation or another?
Well, where in the Bible does it say people can bring children into the world? Everywhere I look, I see God claiming he does this:
Genesis 16:10 The angel of the Lord also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude."
Psalm 105:24 And the Lord made his people very fruitful.
Psalm 127:3 Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him.
Ezekiel 36:10 And I will multiply people on you…
Genesis 30:1-2 When Rachel saw that she was not bearing Jacob any children, she became jealous of her sister. So she said to Jacob, "Give me children, or I'll die!" Jacob became angry with her and said, "Am I in the place of God, who has kept you from having children?"
quote:
TGB: Why can’t God be the primary agent in salvation (stategist, provider, pursuer, lover, convicter, sender, savior) AND our choices play SOME real part that’s NOT played by God, i.e., we can’t say “yes” without his help but we can say “no” in spite of his help?
Well, then the verses Jeff mentioned are pertinent, if "all Israel will be saved," then they will indeed all say "yes."
And also, I believe free-will people hold that everybody must get a free choice, if God does not offer them a choice, then we have reprobation, just a surely as the Calvinists.
But most of the Jewish people on earth from Paul's time until now cannot come, though this will change when it is their turn again, and this also is God's decision.
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/23/2004 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Sahid: "Be fruitful and multiply." God considers childbirth to be within our abilities at least some of the time.
God also says "Be perfect!" But that doesn't imply that this is within our abilities.
And wherever the source is, I can still make my point, I think, that God says that most of the Jewish people, most of the strong, and the smart, and the noble, cannot come, which means they do not all have a really free choice.
quote:
Lock: "Go, then, to the exits of the roads and WHOSOEVER YOU MAY BE FINDING, call to the wedding festivities" and his servants gather BOTH WICKED AND GOOD, and the wedding is full.
Well, this is a difficult passage, are wicked people in heaven, still being wicked? I don't think so, so this may possibly mean some earthly invitation here, for instance, in the millennial kingdom...
Blessings,
Lee
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/23/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Lock: "Go, then, to the exits of the roads and WHOSOEVER YOU MAY BE FINDING, call to the wedding festivities" and his servants gather BOTH WICKED AND GOOD, and the wedding is full.
Well, this is a difficult passage, are wicked people in heaven, still being wicked? I don't think so, so this may possibly mean some earthly invitation here, for instance, in the millennial kingdom...
Blessings,
Lee
Matt 22 also supports the wicked and good both called to the wedding feast. The wicked that come unclothed in the righteousness of Christ come to their destruction, the righteous come to their blessed eternal life. The same feast offered to both, it was their preparation that determined whether it was destruction or blessing.
“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.
Spen Lake
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/23/2004 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
quote:
Matt 22 also supports the wicked and good both called to the wedding feast. The wicked that come unclothed in the righteousness of Christ come to their destruction, the righteous come to their blessed eternal life. The same feast offered to both, it was their preparation that determined whether it was destruction or blessing.
“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.
Yes, but notice the final sentence! "Few are chosen," not "few accept the invitation," or "not everyone comes in a wedding garment."
So again, it's God's choice, even when the servants are sent out to bring in "all you can find"...
Aren't you and Lock some of the "non-free-willers" here? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your points...
Blessings,
Lee
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/1/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
quote:
Sahid: "Be fruitful and multiply." God considers childbirth to be within our abilities at least some of the time.
God also says "Be perfect!" But that doesn't imply that this is within our abilities.
Hi Lee,
So it is your contention that no one is able to love their enemies?
If so, why then does Jesus, in the same portion of the Sermon on the Mount say, "that you may be sons of your Father which is in heaven?" :
Matt. 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Doesn't sound to me like Jesus meant to hold before us an unattainable goal when He commanded us to "be perfect" in loving our enemies. It's just another way of expressing the golden rule.
John
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