 |
| 
Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 12/20/2004 12:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | A month or so ago a guy visited my small group and we all got to talking about the end times and what the Bible says about it, and what the Bible says that the anti-Christ (Satan) would do during that time. We talked about the prophecies that Jesus made about the anti-Christ and what is written in Revelations and the epistles about him and the new guy said that he believes that Satan, because of all that he's sees is written about him, will do something different than what is written in the Bible, since it would be stupid to just go ahead and fulfill prophecies that clearly show he's going to fail and be condemned forever.
Do you understand what I mean? I'm not sure if I'm saying it right. This guy thought that since the Bible clearly shows the actions of the anti-Christ, the anti-Christ can look at that and go, "Hmmmm...that's not going to work, so I'll just try something different," thus, in effect nullifying the Bible and the prophecies therein.
It's like if someone went to a fortune teller and was told that he'd get hit by a bus on 1st Street after leaving the fortune teller. Well, that person would simply just not walk on 1st street so that that wouldn't happen. So, wouldn't the anti-Christ just do the same thing? I'm not saying I believe what this guy posited, but it is an interesting theory - and he actually believes it! It sort of makes sense except that we know that the Bible could never be wrong because it is God's Word. Therefore what's written in it will happen, but why would Satan just go ahead and do all those things if he knows they're futile? Does he have no choice - no free-will - in this matter? And what does that say about the Open View?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
 |
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/22/2004 7:23 PM (GMT -6) | | For what its worth, the futuristic / dispensation/ "Left Behind" reading of the Book of Revelation is not the ONLY available interpretation of this book, and is not even the dominant one in the Church tradition. (See Four Views of Revelation, published by Zondervan). Most have seen Revelations as either A) symbolically describing present realities (God and Satan and the Beast [world government!!!] are presently battling, with God presently in the process of winning) and/OR B) the book describes events that were fulfilled in the first century (but which have transtemporal lessons).
Personally, I think BOTH of these are right. (e.g. the 72 weeks of tribulation correspond to the 72 week seige of Jerusalem ending in 70AD/ Nero Ceasar = 666). If true, all this obsession on the anti-Christ, world ruler, mark of the beast etc... is a tremendous waste of time. It also is damaging to the work of the Church because it leads people to an escapist theology rather than an Incarnational theology. It tends to produce Christians who want to be "raptured" AWAY from the world (another recent invention in theology) instead of following Jesus' example and Incarnating themselves INTO the suffering of the world. It's also dangerous in that there is presently a lot of pressure being put on the Bush Administration by dispensational Christians who DON'T WANT PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST because they think Israel is SUPPOSED ot have the whole land to fulfill "prophecy" (much to the chagrin of our Palestinian brothers and sisters).
(For a GREAT easy book on this, see Barbara Rossing's The Rapture Exposed.)
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/23/2004 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc,
quote:
Personally, I think BOTH of these are right. (e.g. the 72 weeks of tribulation correspond to the 72 week seige of Jerusalem ending in 70AD/ Nero Ceasar = 666). If true, all this obsession on the anti-Christ, world ruler, mark of the beast etc... is a tremendous waste of time. It also is damaging to the work of the Church because it leads people to an escapist theology rather than an Incarnational theology. It tends to produce Christians who want to be "raptured" AWAY from the world (another recent invention in theology) instead of following Jesus' example and Incarnating themselves INTO the suffering of the world. It's also dangerous in that there is presently a lot of pressure being put on the Bush Administration by dispensational Christians who DON'T WANT PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST because they think Israel is SUPPOSED ot have the whole land to fulfill "prophecy" (much to the chagrin of our Palestinian brothers and sisters).
Whether the prophecies refer to the future or 70 A.D., Tigress' question still needs an explanation. I have difficulty assuming that the 10 kings of Revelation are not the same 10 toes of Daniel's prophecy. If they are, then why would "kings" mean something different in Daniel's prophecy referring to the 10 toes than would the term, "king," means in any other passage in Daniel? If, on the other hand, they DO refer to kings, we need a historical reference to explain it. That's my problem with a radically symbolic approach to John's prophecy - it assumes a radical departure of hermeneutic from book to the other. But again, whichever view one holds, Tigress' question must be addressed in a coherent way, eh?
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/23/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
I have difficulty assuming that the 10 kings of Revelation are not the same 10 toes of Daniel's prophecy. If they are, then why would "kings" mean something different in Daniel's prophecy referring to the 10 toes than would the term, "king," means in any other passage in Daniel? If, on the other hand, they DO refer to kings, we need a historical reference to explain it. That's my problem with a radically symbolic approach to John's prophecy - it assumes a radical departure of hermeneutic from book to the other. But again, whichever view one holds, Tigress' question must be addressed in a coherent way, eh?
Hi Jeff,
Preterists I've studied (and I'm not completely convinced preterism is 100% correct) and even some dispensationalists I've studied have noted that there were 10 major persecutions (under 10 different emperors) of Christians in the Roman Empire prior to 315 A.D. Not sure if that answers the question, but I seem to recall reading that somewhere. (I'll have to do some digging this weekend to find a precise reference for you).
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 12/24/2004 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | To suggest that the end time things of Revelations have already occured to me just does not make sense. I think there is a verse of scripture which states something like that when the time of the Ten Kings is present the Son Of Man will set up his everlasting kingdom....none of which occurred back in history....Also the description of 1/3 of mankinds population being destroyed by something which seems to be talkin about nuclear weapons has never taken place. | | Back to Top | | |
|
scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 12/24/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Before taking all the end-times apocalyptic imagery (whether from Revelation or Daniel) so literally, I would suggest one first mull over the significance of apocalyptic prophetic fulfillment in the past, in which the literal details of apocalypse have generally served as literary embellishment and emphasis and not exact prediction. Consider Isaiah's proto-apocalyptic oracle against Edom (Isaiah 34, NIV):
quote:
1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.
And consider Peter's excited proclamation that Pentecost marked the fulfillment of Joel's end-times prophecy (Acts 2, NIV):
quote:
15 "These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’"
And then consider the import of the fact that the sun, moon, stars and sky are still here, for the idea that every apocalyptic word is specifically predictive of a future space-time event.
Also consider the popularity of apocalyptic imagery in the culture of the time, as evidenced by the reams of other extra-biblical apocalypses that symbiotically inspired and indulged in this imagery: 1 Enoch (with its Apocalypse of Weeks for example), 4 Ezra (2 Esdras in the Apocrypha, with its 12-winged 3-headed eagle), etc, etc.
Where all this leads is to a conclusion that apocalyptic prophetic imagery is meant to be literary and not specifically predictive in nature - the purpose being to hyperbolically, vividly and viscerally emphasize the hand of God in contemporaneous times in a way that would inspire and excite the reader.
As a preterist and idealist who agrees with Greg Boyd on this,
Scott
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/24/2004 2:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Scott,
quote:
Before taking all the end-times apocalyptic imagery (whether from Revelation or Daniel) so literally, I would suggest one first mull over the significance of apocalyptic prophetic fulfillment in the past, in which the literal details of apocalypse have generally served as literary embellishment and emphasis and not exact prediction. Consider Isaiah's proto-apocalyptic oracle against Edom (Isaiah 34, NIV):
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would agree that the language is hyperbolic and phenomelogical. But it doesn't follow that to those on the earth it won't appear as it is written (at least hyperbolically). Mic. 7:15 predicted that, "According to the days of the coming out of the land of Egypt will I show him marvellous things." So I can't rule out physical marvels, signs, and wonders as dramatic (or more so) as those of Exodous. Now I suspect from our previous correspondence that you believe the Exodous is mostly mythological, so I can see why such verses as Mic. 7:15 would not have any significance to you.
quote:
And consider Peter's excited proclamation that Pentecost marked the fulfillment of Joel's end-times prophecy (Acts 2, NIV):
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 "These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then consider the import of the fact that the sun, moon, stars and sky are still here, for the idea that every apocalyptic word is specifically predictive of a future space-time event.
The passage does not require that the sun, moon, and stars cease to exist - only that they would appear different in marvelous ways. Nor does it follow that those events had to transpire shortly thereafter. Christ specifically told the apostles that He didn't know if the kingdom would be restored in that time (KRONOS). He knew it was conceivable but didn't know if the Father had determined it to be in that KRONOS.
quote:
Also consider the popularity of apocalyptic imagery in the culture of the time, as evidenced by the reams of other extra-biblical apocalypses that symbiotically inspired and indulged in this imagery: 1 Enoch (with its Apocalypse of Weeks for example), 4 Ezra (2 Esdras in the Apocrypha, with its 12-winged 3-headed eagle), etc, etc.
But what does that prove? Indeed, how do we know that prophetic imagery was not influenced by an actual dream by the king of the world - Nebuchadnezzar - and it's interpretation.
quote:
Where all this leads is to a conclusion that apocalyptic prophetic imagery is meant to be literary and not specifically predictive in nature - the purpose being to hyperbolically, vividly and viscerally emphasize the hand of God in contemporaneous times in a way that would inspire and excite the reader.
I can't assume that it wasn't intended to be predictive when Christ and the apostles took it just that way and made predictions of their own - or are those predictions not really predictions either?
quote:
As a preterist and idealist who agrees with Greg Boyd on this,
Scott
I realize that my views are probably in a minority on this forum, but I must act consistent with my own mind. In other words, I will defend what seems most reasonable to me just as you do. If I'm ever convinced that the views held by scholars and academe are correct, I won't bother to defend them, because scripture will have no relevance to me at that point. I realize that you and others can find some kind of relevance in a radically errant bible, but I simply cannot.
Since this forum is coming to a quick end, I will miss being able to correspond with you here, for you have given me much food for thought. And you may eventually be able to convince me I'm wrong. I would like, if you don't mind, to have your email address so I can ask you questions as I have time to read thru the books I have bought at your recommendation. In any case, thanks for the time you have invested in posting here. And may we be brought to one mind "In God's Time!" 
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 12/28/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
J.N.Darby
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 124
| Posted 1/20/2006 10:00 PM (GMT -6) | | For what it's worth...
I'm both an open theist and a futurist (premillennial dispensationalism). I feel dispensationalism tends to get a lot of misrepresentation and mischaracterization, similar to how numerous Calvinists misrepresent and mischaracterize open theism - and just as some Christians only hear about open-theism from the Calvinist point of view, it seems some Christians only hear about dispensationalism from the anti-dispensationalist point of view. Certainly there are those who abuse the system, and I'm just as weary as Mr. Boyd is against "Newspaper-eschatology", escapists, and those who work against peace out of a misguided quest to "help" fulfill prophecy. But inasmuch as I understand genuine dispensationalism, none of these negative portraits are inherent to the system, or required by it, but have been added onto it by misunderstanding and abuse of the system.
But rather than argue on behalf of dispensationalism specifically, for now I would like to argue on behalf of premillennialism in general (the belief that the Lord Jesus Christ will literally return to this earth to usher in a thousand year reign over the nations of this earth, prior to the final judgment and the New Earth). It seems to me to be the most natural reading of the relevant passages of scripture, most notably Revelation 19 to 21. It is also arguably the understanding of the earliest amongst the Pre-Nicene Christians (until Augustine came along and introduced both theological-compatibilism and amillennialism in his later years):
Eusebius, citing Papias: Among these things, Papias says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth.
Justin Martyr: I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built... for Isaiah spoke in that manner concerning this period of a thousand years.
Irenaeus: Now God made promise of the Earth to Abraham and his seed. Yet neither Abraham not his seed (that is, those who are justified by faith) presently receive any inheritance in it. Therefore, they will receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful. For this reason, He said, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
Hippolytus: The Sabbath is the type and symbol of the future kingdom of the saints, when they shall reign with Christ after He comes from heaven, as John says in his Revelation. For "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years."
There is a teaching called "preterism" which claims that almost all of the prophecies of scripture were fulfilled in the 1st Century, in the year 70 in particular. This is based largely on the assumption that Revelation was written before the year 70, and that the fulfillments can be discerned from the histories of Josephus. I have 3 objections to this view:
1) Preterists are amongst the foremost who accuse dispensationalists of "Newspaper-eschatology" - but attempting to find fulfillment of scriptural prophecy in the histories of Josephus is the exact same error, just using a much much older "newspaper".
2) There is testimony amongst the early Christians that points to Revelation being written by John in the last decade of the 1st Century (around the year 95 A.d.), especially Irenaeus, who writes: "However, I will not incur the risk of dogmatically pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." [Note: "towards the end of Domitian's reign" would be the mid-90s of the First century A.D.] Certainly this is testimony that the Apostle John was alive in the last decade of the 1st Century. It would seem that John, of all people, would have known whether the majority of biblical prophecy had been fulfilled in the year 70, and it would seem likely his student Polycarp would have learned this from him, and Irenaeus would have learned it from Polycarp. But apparently this was not the case. And then there's the problem of Revelation being written around 95, more than 2 decades AFTER the year 70. It just doesn't add up.
3) It would seem that, if the biblical prophecies had been fulfilled in the year 70, the Pre-Nicene Christian writers should have known something about it! For example, preterism typically claims that Nero Caesar was the Beast of Revelation 13, and the Anti-Christ. By way of contrast, consider these statements (along with the quote under point #2 from Irenaeus) from the early Christians:
Justin Martyr: [Christ] shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, will venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians.
Irenaeus: By means of the events that will occur in the time of the Antichrist, it is shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be worshipped as God... For he is endowed with all of the power of the devil. He will come - not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king in subjection to God - but as an unholy, unjust, and lawless one... He will set aside idols to persuade men that he himself is god... Daniel, foresaw the end of the last kingdom (of the ten last kings), among whom the kingdom of those men will be partitioned and upon whom the son of perdition will come.
Irenaeus: Once this Antichrist has devastated everything in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem. And then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds.
Irenaeus: This number [666] is found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of Revelation]. Furthermore, those men who saw John face to face give their testimony to it. Reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six.
Hippolytus: The deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God... Christ is a king, so the Antichrist is also a king. The Savior appeared as a lamb. So he, too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf... The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles... The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he [Antichrist] will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem.
Hippolytus: By the beast, then, coming up out of the earth, he means the kingdom of the Antichrist. Any by the two horns, he means him and the false prophet after him... He will act with vigor again and prove strong by reason of the laws established by him. And he will cause all those who will not worship the image of the beast to be put to death... Being full of guile and exalting himself against the servants of God, he desires to afflict them and persecute them out of the world, for they do not give glory to him. He will order censers to be set up by everyone, everywhere, so that none of the saints may be able to buy or sell without first sacrificing. For this is what is meant by the mark received upon the right hand. And the phrase, "on their forehead", indicates that all are crowed and put on a crown of fire - of death, not of life.
Hippolytus: The prophet sets forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who will be shameless, a war-monger, and a despot. Exalting himself above all kings and above every god, he will build the city of Jerusalem and restore the sanctuary [the Temple].
Hippolytus: With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly - not as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it. Rather, we can only conjecture about it. For when [the Antichrist] appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know... But having the mystery of God in our heart, we should in fear keep faithfully what has been told us by the blessed prophets. That way, when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them and not deceived. [Note: compare this, and Irenaeus' similar statements, to the preteristic claim that these prophecies were already fulfilled in year 70, and that Nero was thus the beast/Antichrist. It seem pretty certain that the early Christian writers, after the year 70, were not preterists, but futurists].
Tertullian: After the destruction of the Antichrist, there will be speedily transacted the great process of the resurrection.
Having provided this sampling from some of the earliest post-apostolic/pre-Nicene Christian writers, I would argue that their understanding of scriptural prophecy was both futurist and premillennial. Since many of us who are open theists and/or Arminians look to these early Christians for their testimony in favor of free-will theism (and against theological determinism and/or compatibilism), it would seem to me inconsistent to dismiss their testimony concerning Biblical prophecy.
For a great and easy book which explores this further, I recommend "the End Times Controversy", a collection of essays, with Thomas Ice as the editor.
-------------------------------------
GregBoyd said...
For what its worth, the futuristic / dispensation/ "Left Behind" reading of the Book of Revelation is not the ONLY available interpretation of this book, and is not even the dominant one in the Church tradition. (See Four Views of Revelation, published by Zondervan). Most have seen Revelations as either A) symbolically describing present realities (God and Satan and the Beast [world government!!!] are presently battling, with God presently in the process of winning) and/OR B) the book describes events that were fulfilled in the first century (but which have transtemporal lessons).
Personally, I think BOTH of these are right. (e.g. the 72 weeks of tribulation correspond to the 72 week seige of Jerusalem ending in 70AD/ Nero Ceasar = 666). If true, all this obsession on the anti-Christ, world ruler, mark of the beast etc... is a tremendous waste of time. It also is damaging to the work of the Church because it leads people to an escapist theology rather than an Incarnational theology. It tends to produce Christians who want to be "raptured" AWAY from the world (another recent invention in theology) instead of following Jesus' example and Incarnating themselves INTO the suffering of the world. It's also dangerous in that there is presently a lot of pressure being put on the Bush Administration by dispensational Christians who DON'T WANT PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST because they think Israel is SUPPOSED ot have the whole land to fulfill "prophecy" (much to the chagrin of our Palestinian brothers and sisters).
(For a GREAT easy book on this, see Barbara Rossing's The Rapture Exposed.)
Greg | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:07 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|