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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/21/2005 11:51 AM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said...Corey:
I think the ceremony of baptism is instructive here. I hold that it's not essential to having a relationship with Christ, but nonetheless it is normative.
Of course, some churches believe that baptism is ESSENTIAL to having a relationship with Christ. But that's neither here nor there. Let's take the "symbolic" stance. Baptism wouldn't be the same thing as marriage here. Why? Because baptism is inextricably linked to one becoming a participant in the life of the community of faith. (As is communion) whereas, with our conception of marriage, it is NOT. This is where the consistency of the Orthodox ring very clear. To them, marriage is ALSO inextricably linked with the life of the community of faith BECAUSE the marital relationship is one place where the Church is spread and the Kingdom is lived out. (Recall what they say about having children and WHY it's important!)
At any rate, with your beliefs, I don't see why a marital ceremony would be normative, given it is not DIRECTLY related to the life of the community of faith in any essential sense.
I think I'm miscommunicating here, or maybe I'm not hearing you correctly. I'm just trying the same pattern I looked at before with the assurance of salvation/lifelong marriage analogy. I'd expect that one should also be consistent with how they think about baptism as ceremony to publicly formally declare union with Christ and with the marriage ceremony as being a public formal ceremony to declare a new marital union.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/21/2005 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | John:
My response to this is that what we today call "casual sex" fits the biblical definition of forncaition, while sex within the context of a committed, loving relationship, with the intention that it be "til death do us part" (as Jesus said it should be) is really what the spirit of marriage is. Anything additional to this basic essence of marriage would be cultural constraints, which would not necessarily be wrong, but also would not guarantee real love, either.
Sweeeeeet.
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Selah:
come on. Are you telling me that emotions don't cause people to do things on whimsy...even if those things were never their original intention? can you imagine how many times people emotionally threaten divorce or say "they've already got the papers?"
Marriage counseling can work for these people simply because it bring them OUT of emotional whimsy and back IN to their original intention.
2 years, 7 years, 20, 40 years...doesn't matter. The desire to satisfy self is strong. If someone doesn't "feel" happy anymore (they fall out of love, their partner isn't the same as when they married them, temptation down the street, whatever) it's easy to throw everything out the window based on emotion. We're talking about people who really believe they had a Christ like love when they got married. It really isn't for us to question. They will tell you they did. In fact, many will also tell you that ending a marriage where people aren't "happy" is the MOST Christ-like-loving thing to do. This happens especially if they live in a context where marriage is devalued or seen as outdated etc.
Soooo...the option is to make them feel boxed in by saying "Hey, you made a vow before God...and that means that you stick it out and work it out?" Is THAT what marriage is supposed to be?? Hey, I've seen couples. The ones that basically say that divorce is NOT an option because they got married before God. And yes, this forms a PRAGMATIC basis from which they would be willing to try...when otherwise they wouldn't. But look at what the marriage "commitment" has become! A contractual agreement that one feels that they CAN'T get out of...so they MIGHT AS WELL work it out. That sucks. Surely, you can't say that THIS is what a marriage "commitment" is about!
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selah: Corey, do you believe there will be sex in heaven?
corey: Hmmm... never thought about it. Don't have much to go on here. Kinda hard for me to think of heaven as a mass orgy, though.
Say, man. Don't rule this out. Not trying to be funny, but think about this. What if our uninterupted communion with God is the MOST PLEASURABLE EXPERIENCE imaginable...and EVERYONE in heaven had that experience and shared it with each other. What if the orgasm is truly just a FORETASTE of the bliss and pleasure that awaits us in our continual communion with God? This is EXACTLY what Doc conceptualizes in his idea of the "trinification of Creation" Everyone experiences the insurpassable, esctatic, lovely existence of the Triune God forever.
A big orgy of PERFECT love. (Doc's ACTUALLY used that term.)
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/21/2005 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
about the boring thing. If one thinks about heaven as ever-increasing, joyful, communion with the Triune God and all other beings in Christ...ever-increasing deepening of knowledge of God...I don't see how the conception "boring" could even come into play. It would be the ANTITHESIS of boring!
Cool Meph,
I agree in the "ever-increasing deepening of knowledge of God". (Do you have any resources for reference?)
I think that every moment in heaven will increase in infinite love using the previous moment as a comparative. That’s one reason why I don't believe all love relationships will be equivalent during our journey through the heavens. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | John:
It seems to me that the MAIN point of the 1 Cor. 11 passage you cited IS head coverings. Paul brings in the creational order concept in to support his argument for women wearing head coverings. He is not primarily discussing the marriage relationship/home in the passage.
Dr. Craig Keener's IVP Bible Background Commentary - NT really seems convincing to me, that in 1 Tim 2, Paul was dealing with a cultural situation, and was not intending to make univerally applicable truth statements concerning men and women.
Additionally, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates (an evangelical Bible scholar of Greek Cypriot extraction), in his Complete Word Study New Testament footnotes on 1 Tim. 2, argues that in context what Paul is saying is essentially, "I do not permit a wife to dictate to her husband," not, "I do not permit women preachers/teachers in the church."
In either case, I personally think Keener's argument that this was a culturally conditional statement, and not a universally applicable one, is solid.
I don't disagree at all. Really. What I'm saying is that Paul brings in the creational order concept to validate his point 1)because he believes its AUTHORITATIVE and 2) because he believes it's TRUE. He uses the his points about Creation to argue for his MAIN point about head coverings. We still have to deal with the implications of his points about Creation. Just because that wasn't his MAIN point doesn't mean it was any less of a theological assertion that Paul believed was true. It is this that we must wrestle with.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Corey:
I think I'm miscommunicating here, or maybe I'm not hearing you correctly. I'm just trying the same pattern I looked at before with the assurance of salvation/lifelong marriage analogy. I'd expect that one should also be consistent with how they think about baptism as ceremony to publicly formally declare union with Christ and with the marriage ceremony as being a public formal ceremony to declare a new marital union.
Oh, I think I see what you are saying. In both cases, we could say that these things are HELPFUL for the sake of identification within a given community of faith, but not ESSENTIAL to being a Christian AS such, right? If this is the case, it's more of a PRAGMATIC issue than a divinely ordained one. "Hey, do something to tell the world who you are!" That's a nice pragmatic reason, but of course this is far from saying that the marriage ceremony MAKES anything holy or whatever. Did I get it right this time?
Right. Now we're connecting.
I'm going one more step in saying that since Christ instructed/expected that we would in fact be baptized, not just "say a prayer" or whatever and leave it at that, that likewise we should expect that a marriage ceremony ought to be normative, but not "essential" in the strict sense.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | The idea of heaven being "one big orgy of love," while certainly provocative, has absolutely no biblical basis whatsoever (that I'm aware of). If anyone knows of any passages which would demonstrate this to be the case, please let everyone here know.
All of the descriptions of heaven that we have in scripture involve worship of GOD, not the pursuit of lustful passions. I find it very hard to believe that what's denounced as a sin here would be all of the sudden given carte blanche in heaven.
Jesus said that in the resurrection people would neither marry nor be given in marriage, and He goes on to argue that the reason for this is that "they will be like the angels."
Paul's argument in 1 Cor. 7 about celibacy being the highest form of devotion seems to me to strongly weigh against the idea that we would be any less devoted to God there than would be ideal down here (celibate).
JohnPost Edited (JEE) : 1/21/2005 11:18:09 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | The wedding/jumping over the stick is not an empty, strictly formal or decorative ceremony.
You're making your commitment vows in front of your parents, families, friends, tribe, village, community, poker club.
Hopefully, should you ever be seen flirting with the milkmaid, the village blacksmith will come out, lay a big hand on your shoulder and remind you of the commitment you vowed in front of all those people.
It's all about community, donja know.
 THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES, BUT THEY CAN NEVER TAKE OUR EYEROLL PICCIES!
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
The wedding/jumping over the stick is not an empty, strictly formal or decorative ceremony.
You're making your commitment vows in front of your parents, families, friends, tribe, village, community, poker club.
Hopefully, should you ever be seen flirting with the milkmaid, the village blacksmith will come out, lay a big hand on your shoulder and remind you of the commitment you vowed in front of all those people.
It's all about community, donja know.
I hear what you are saying, man. But that's more of a PRAGMATIC reason that a DIVINELY ORDAINED one. That's all I'm saying.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Selah said...
I mean JOhn. Can you imagine an eternity - celibate? Really?
I don't think we can really imagine eternity in the first place, selah.
I'm assuming we will no longer have the urge to merge (procreate), though, and so I'm gonna say it won't be too difficult. The sex drive is almost totally the result of testosterone (a physical substance). In 1 Cor. 15, Paul said our new body would be "a spiritual body," and would no longer be subject to the physical corruption that is inherent in this mortal existence we now live in, which physical corruption, we can safely assume, would include the hormones that govern the sex drive in mortal bodies.
at least think about it. God made sex.
Certainly. But God made sex for what, precisely? It's main purpose is not pleasure (though that's certainly an added side benefit and added incentive to pursue it, and there's nothing wrong with pleasure in and of itself, in the proper context).
In my opinion, God made sex so powerful and so thrilling so that we would have little or no problem fulfilling his first command to us--"Be fruitful and multiply," in addition to the obvious emotional bonds it would entail.
Do you know of any descriptions of "heaven as one big orgy" in the scriptures? I've never seen any, but I obviously could've missed something.
John
Post Edited (JEE) : 1/21/2005 11:56:45 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Don't take this as some big celestial porn flick, brah!  Okay, if you somehow mean it will be a "spiritual orgy," I guess that's more figurative, right?
But that's not what I'm hearing Selah saying.
By the way, I find it REALLY, really amusing that I would be called "church lady" or considered prude for objecting to this idea--I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being a prude. 
John | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/21/2005 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Laika:
The wedding/jumping over the stick is not an empty, strictly formal or decorative ceremony.
You're making your commitment vows in front of your parents, families, friends, tribe, village, community, poker club.
Hopefully, should you ever be seen flirting with the milkmaid, the village blacksmith will come out, lay a big hand on your shoulder and remind you of the commitment you vowed in front of all those people.
It's all about community, donja know.
I hear what you are saying, man. But that's more of a PRAGMATIC reason that a DIVINELY ORDAINED one. That's all I'm saying.
But it is divinely ordained. You're making a covenant with the other person in front of everyone.
Abraham did some things to broadcast that he had made a covenant with God (piling up of rocks, having a circumcision)
Can I get a witness?
That's why you just don't believe with your heart, you also confess with your mouth. Romans 10:9,10
 Post Edited (Laika) : 1/21/2005 12:09:56 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/21/2005 1:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said...
But it is divinely ordained. You're making a covenant with the other person in front of everyone.
Abraham did some things to broadcast that he had made a covenant with God (piling up of rocks, having a circumcision)
Can I get a witness?
What is sex when it’s left in the seclusion of darkness? Not good. The Marriage ceremony is a public confession of faith brought out into the light of God where all can share in His blessings…unless you’re gay of course.
In that case, any civil union will suffice. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 1/21/2005 12:14:06 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/21/2005 1:11 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
Laika said...
But it is divinely ordained. You're making a covenant with the other person in front of everyone.
Abraham did some things to broadcast that he had made a covenant with God (piling up of rocks, having a circumcision)
Can I get a witness?
What is sex when it’s left in the seclusion of darkness? Not good. The Marriage ceremony is a public confession of faith brought out into the light of God where all can share in His blessings…unless you’re gay of course.
That's why we don't just believe with our hearts, we also confess with our mouths, Romans 10:9,10.
The public confession is part of both processes.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/21/2005 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said...
sparknheart said...
Laika said...
But it is divinely ordained. You're making a covenant with the other person in front of everyone.
Abraham did some things to broadcast that he had made a covenant with God (piling up of rocks, having a circumcision)
Can I get a witness?
What is sex when it’s left in the seclusion of darkness? Not good. The Marriage ceremony is a public confession of faith brought out into the light of God where all can share in His blessings…unless you’re gay of course.
That's why we don't just believe with our hearts, we also confess with our mouths, Romans 10:9,10.
The public confession is part of both processes.
It’s a complete package deal! | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/21/2005 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/21/2005 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | |
JEE said...
As I was reflecting on this topic today Yeah I been thinking about that too, sex.
I've come to the conclusion that, YES, I'm FOR it, 100, NAE, 150%.
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