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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 1/22/2005 5:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Been having a discussion with this guy about the tsunami that hit South East Asia.  Here is what I asked and his response.
 

: Is it abhorent to you that God could have orchestrated a tsunami or a 9/11 for some
: greater goal for his creation?

Not necessarily. But you may have heard about the mudslide here in North Vancouver that wiped out a couple houses and killed at least one of its residents just the other day. To me, the tsunami is just another incident like that, only bigger. So unless you are prepared to read divine significance into ALL natural disasters, no matter how few or how many there victims might be, I don't cotton to the idea that we should ascribe divine significance to the disasters which happen to be hyped by the media.

Question:  If we cannot know "the big picture" i.e. whether some natural catastrophe is a part of a judgment of God, a "double effect" i.e. God setting a bone (to use Iconoclast's phrase) couldn't we also say that God had absolutely NOTHING to do with said event?  If we look at the "cosmic chess game analogy" according to Meph Man from the PBS Faith and Doubt thread:

So for any lost piece, we just must surmise that somehow, in the parameters of that particular game and the moves that were made, that any given sacrifice of a piece was NECESSARY...for if he COULD have spared the piece, he WOULD have.

Doesn't the necessity cancel out any chaos or randomness?  In other words, how does randomness figure into this?  If there are parameters, within those parameters there is a lot of allowance for freedom for randomness and chaos.  Therefore, "any given sacrifice of a piece WOULD NOT be necessary."

Meph Man? Tom? Pizza Face (whoever that is)? smilewinkgrin


Brandon
"Theology is doxology"--John G. Stackhouse quoting J.I. Packer in "Evangelical Futures: A Conversation on Theological Method"

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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 1/22/2005 7:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
Question: If we cannot know "the big picture" i.e. whether some natural catastrophe is a part of a judgment of God, a "double effect" i.e. God setting a bone (to use Iconoclast's phrase) couldn't we also say that God had absolutely NOTHING to do with said event? If we look at the "cosmic chess game analogy" according to Meph Man from the PBS Faith and Doubt thread:

So for any lost piece, we just must surmise that somehow, in the parameters of that particular game and the moves that were made, that any given sacrifice of a piece was NECESSARY...for if he COULD have spared the piece, he WOULD have.

Doesn't the necessity cancel out any chaos or randomness? In other words, how does randomness figure into this? If there are parameters, within those parameters there is a lot of allowance for freedom for randomness and chaos. Therefore, "any given sacrifice of a piece WOULD NOT be necessary."


I see what you are saying. Here's the thing. What I meant was that, for ever particular instance of evil, there was REASON why he couldn't prevent it. Otherwise, God WOULD prevent the evil. For what you are talking about (chance happenings of evil), we'd have to say that...

1) this occured in a designated area were randomness and chaos was allowed

2) the possibility of the evil was an ACCEPTABLE RISK to God, and

3) God allowed that realm of "acceptable risk" in that PARTICULAR area for a GOOD REASON.

Unless you want to say that God was absolutely arbitrary in choosing WHAT ASPECTS of Creation would have randomness...and possibilities for chance occurances of evil.

In other words, Brandon, the greater good argument assumes that God does EVERYTHING out of intentionality...NEVER out of whimsy or being arbitrary. If God does something, it's for a good reason. If God ALLOWS something, it's for a good reason. What this means is that even God granting pockets of randomness and chaos to certain places MUST have intentionality behind them.

See the issue?

devil


"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 1/24/2005 12:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes.  I see the issue Eternal One and I am forever at your debt and at your feet.  cheers


Brandon
"Theology is doxology"--John G. Stackhouse quoting J.I. Packer in "Evangelical Futures: A Conversation on Theological Method"

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