 |
|  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/4/2005 8:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Anyone on this board find process theism more valuable than open theism? If not, what is it about open theism that is more, for a lack of better word, appealing?
Thanks!
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
   |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/6/2005 1:54 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Matt said... Shouldn't one first consider whether or not process or open theism are true before assessing the value of the view?
No. For me the truth of process theisms values lies in the way I rationally view reality and make presuppositions. Its value is grounded first in my understanding of how I perceive God and the world, and second how God and the world perceives me.
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles HartshornePost Edited (A_Theist) : 3/6/2005 1:58:00 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/6/2005 2:36 AM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said... A-Theist: Anyone on this board find process theism more valuable than open theism? If not, what is it about open theism that is more, for a lack of better word, appealing?
In my view, consistent open theism is based upon a PROCESS metaphysic. (I'd actually call open view theism "trinitarian process theology" if it weren't for the stupid political ramifications.
Am I wrong to assume that you may possibly have been influenced by Trinity and Process: a Critical evaluation and Reconstruction of Hartshorne's Di-Polar Theism Towards a Trinitarian Metaphysics"?
At any rate, the MAIN thing that make open view theism more appealing than straight process theism is that process theism doesn't allow for UNILATERAL activity by God.
Unilateral omnipotence is not only not allowed in a process view, it is metaphysically impossible in the whole understanding of what a process is and how God RELATES to it and it relates to God.
How, in your opinion, does it make open theism more appealing to postulate unilateral activity in God's relationship to the world? As far as I can see this doesn't solve the problem of why a God who could chose to unilaterally intervene still doesn't for sake of creaturely freedom. In this view there are no metaphysical constraints on the way God could choose to interact to prevent less-than-valuable creaturely free choices in spite of God's respect for those free choices that can still be revocable unilaterlly if God is not metaphysically restrained--which it appears God isn't. It also raises the question as to Why God still couldn't prevent evils (demonic, natural, creaturely) if God is (Does open theism make unilateral activity in God a metaphysical necessity?) able to act in a unilateral fassion?
For lack of creative imagination I would have to say that it appears that process theisms view on persuasive omnipotence is far more appealing in that it enables true relationships opposed to one-sided, unilateral, omnipotence which makes creaturely choices illusory--if I am understanding the way you are using "unilateral."
Could you please explain to me what you mean when you say that process theism doesn't allow "direct (audible?) speech" ?
Love that signature meph emoticon.
Peace, Paul
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Grahaminator Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 70 | Posted 3/6/2005 9:32 AM (GMT -6) |   |
A_Theist said...
For me the truth of process theisms values lies in the way I rationally view reality and make presuppositions. Its value is grounded first in my understanding of how I perceive God and the world, and second how God and the world perceives me.
A_Theist, I don't understand your reponse here. I'll reword your response. "For me the truth of process theism lies in the way I rationally view reality and make presuppositions." I am not sure what the value of process theism or the appeal of process theism has to do with the truth of process theism. Could you describe your epistemology?
Matt
Man is the feeblest reed in existence, but he is a thinking reed. There is no need that the universe be armed for his destruction; a noxious vapour, a drop of water is enough to cause his death. But though the universe were to destroy him, man would be more noble than his destroyer. -Pascal | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/6/2005 9:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | A-Theist: Am I wrong to assume that you may possibly have been influenced by Trinity and Process: a Critical evaluation and Reconstruction of Hartshorne's Di-Polar Theism Towards a Trinitarian Metaphysics"?
Oh, of course. I loved it. I really think that it's underestimated, in that it gives a truly viable reconstruction that aligns process metaphysics with orthodox Christian theology. I'd liked process (ala John Cobb and David Ray Griffin) before, but Doc's dissertation helped reconcile some things for me. Actually, it was the one of the MAIN THINGS that allowed me to become an open view theist! Yep.
***********************
A-Theist: How, in your opinion, does it make open theism more appealing to postulate unilateral activity in God's relationship to the world? As far as I can see this doesn't solve the problem of why a God who could chose to unilaterally intervene still doesn't for sake of creaturely freedom. In this view there are no metaphysical constraints on the way God could choose to interact to prevent less-than-valuable creaturely free choices in spite of God's respect for those free choices that can still be revocable unilaterlly if God is not metaphysically restrained--which it appears God isn't. It also raises the question as to Why God still couldn't prevent evils (demonic, natural, creaturely) if God is (Does open theism make unilateral activity in God a metaphysical necessity?) able to act in a unilateral fassion?
This is why I believe that a person truly can't understand the warfare/open view worldview without reading ALL of Doc's books relevant to the subject, including Trinity and Process. Though his NOTES in God at War, God of the Possible, and Satan and the Problem of Evil CLEARLY STATE that his metaphysic is grounded in his metaphysical assumptions about reality articulated in "Trinity and Process", few people seem to read it or understand what that means.
All of Doc's usage of argumentation like John Hick's soul-making theodicy or the idea or things like that assume Doc's reconstructed process metaphysic. So, the explanations that he uses in his SATPOE are explanations that show why God within the modified process metaphysic cannot at times unilaterally intervene in things.
Open view theism is more appealing IF someone really wants to hold to God doing unilateral action in history. If you don't care about that, I'd go straight process. Sometimes, I feel like it'd be a lot easier...
*****************************
A-Theist: For lack of creative imagination I would have to say that it appears that process theisms view on persuasive omnipotence is far more appealing in that it enables true relationships opposed to one-sided, unilateral, omnipotence which makes creaturely choices illusory--if I am understanding the way you are using "unilateral."
Hmmm...the entire reason that I like process philosophy (and I believe the reason Doc uses it so heavily) is because of the inherent RELATIONALITY involved. It makes a WHOLE lot of sense. And it's definitely light years above any other metaphysic in my mind.
When I'm saying God can act "unilaterally", all that I mean is that God can operate in the physical realm and affect things from his own agency. This means that God can do things like strike someone down with leprosy or cause an axhead to float...WITHOUT any creaturely help. In straight process, all that God does is hold all things together and influence things via his subjective aim. David Ray Griffin, in his work, "Parapsychology, Philosophy, and Spirituality" illustrates how he believes "miracles" are possible, but never SEPARATE from creaturely minds heavily determining the effect according to God's "aiming" (like we see with the prayer of faith). This is cool, as far as it goes, but it doesn't allow God do do something completely ON GOD'S OWN. I don't think that this would work with some of the miracles we see in the Bible.
So, this is what I mean by "unilateral" activity of God. "I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
  |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 3/7/2005 4:48 PM (GMT -6) |   |
|
I found this at "Process and Faith" website....
Dr. John B. Cobb, Jr. answers frequently asked questions regarding process thought and faith. Please click here to submit your question for Dr. Cobb in the dialogue box on the Open Forum page. Each month Dr. Cobb selects a question to answer and gives his response on this page. To see Dr. Cobb's answers to previously posed questions, check out the FAQ Archive. |
March 2005 Question
"What are the similarities and differences between process theology and openness theology?"
Dr. Cobb’s response:
1. Some Agreements
The similarities are more impressive than the differences. Openness theology has emerged among those who are committed to some form of biblical inerrancy. Most process theologians take for granted the context brought about by all sorts of critical study of the Bible. These two communities of thought and discourse out of which openness and process theologies have emerged have been strongly differentiated for a long time, and many have believed that their mutual opposition is irreconcilable. Yet these two forms of theology have come to remarkably similar conclusions.
Also, in broad terms, these two theological movements understand their task in a similar way. Whereas much conservative theology repeats and defends traditional formulations, openness theology joins process theology in the task of revision. Whereas much liberal theology has followed the linguistic turn and abandoned the effort to speak of God and the world as having their own reality independently of how we think of them, process theology joins openness theology in continuing the traditional task of using language to describe a reality that is far more than language. Both process theology and openness theology, further, look to the Bible as the chief source for the knowledge of God’s nature and relation to the world. And they find in the Bible much the same teaching.
Central to that teaching is that God is love and that other characteristics or attributes of God should be rethought in relation to that one. This means, for example, that the idea of God’s immutability should be rethought. There are certainly ways in which God does not change. For example, God always loves the creatures. But the one who loves another is affected by what happens to the one who is loved. To deny that, in favor of the abstract idea of immutability, is to reject the biblical revelation.
Similarly, the God we meet in the Bible knows what is going on in the world. Indeed, God knows everything that is going on in the world and in every human heart. Further, God’s knowledge is not so much a propositional knowledge about the world but an immediate sharing of all creaturely experience. No one and nothing can be concealed from God. This means that God, far from being impassible, as the tradition has taught, is ideally affected by all that goes on in the world.
This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently.
2. Some Disagreements
Despite the similarity of the way process theologians and openness theologians understand the way God works with creatures, there is a major theoretical difference here. Openness theologians argue that God can control everything in every detail. It is God’s choice to allow freedom to creatures. Thus they affirm that God is omnipotent even though God does not in fact exercise this power. The power of creatures is the result of the self-limitation of God, and God can at any moment revoke that self-limitation and exercise total control.
Process theologians disagree. For us, to be at all is to have power. God cannot create a powerless creature. If there are beings other than God then God does not have all the power.
Some process theologians think it best to continue to use the term “omnipotence” while redefining it. We do this in the case of omniscience. We call God “omniscient” because has all the knowledge that it is possible to have. With respect to the future, much is not now determined. God knows it is not determined. But that means God does not know how it will be determined. This is not a limitation on God’s knowledge. It is a limitation as to what there is to be known.
In a similar way, some process theologians assert that it makes no sense to assert that God has all the power. Power is a relational idea. Power is the ability to cause things to happen. But if there is very little resistance, very little power is expressed in causing something to happen. One may lift a feather with very little exertion of power. It is lifting a heavy weight that demonstrates real power. If God has all the power, so that creatures have none at all, then making creatures act as God chooses does not require any power. God might then be said to have all the power, but that would still be a very insignificant amount of power.
Accordingly, omnipotence can only mean maximum or optimum power. It must mean the ability to affect or control powerful beings. Only if creatures have great power themselves can God’s power in relation to them be significant. God’s “omnipotence,” then, means, not that God has all the power but that God has power over all other powers.
Other process theologians, and I include myself, reject the term “omnipotence” to describe God’s power, even when it is explained in this way. It is so deeply connected with controlling others that it does not point well to the kind of power that Jesus embodied and revealed. The power that is connoted by “omnipotence” is one whose exercise limits and reduces the power of the one on whom it is exercised. The power revealed in Jesus empowers others. This is the kind of power that we should primarily attribute to God if we take seriously the idea that Jesus reveals God.
This point is so central to process theology that I come back to it again and again in responding to frequently asked questions. The more fully God acts in our lives, the more we are strengthened and enabled to act effectively. The more freely we act, the more we acknowledge God’s grace as that which gives us this freedom. If we could persuade people to understand that this supreme empowering, liberating, and enlivening power is what is meant by “omnipotence,” then we could use that word. But many of us think that, at least for the present, we must avoid it.
How great is the difference here between process theologians and openness theologians? I am not sure. Openness theologians are certainly open to understanding God’s primary work as empowering, liberating, and enlivening, but it seems to be important to them to say also that God can act also in all-determining coercive fashion. God may have decided not to interrupt the course of events with these kinds of interventions, but God could do so if God wished.
Openness theologians recognize that this idea that God voluntarily limits the exercise of divine power leads them into greater problems with the evil in the world than faced by process theologians. If God could have stopped the Nazis from exterminating Jews, why did God allow the genocide to continue? They also recognize that the strict doctrine of divine omnipotence is not present in the Bible. Nevertheless, they think that for the sake of continuity with the tradition, they must continue to affirm this.
3. Different Contexts and Foci
This reason for holding to a doctrine of God’s omnipotence points to a larger difference. The conservative Christian community in which openness theology is rooted long appealed primarily to the Bible, even against later tradition. But as it found that the Bible does not clearly support some of the beliefs that are of greatest importance to it, it has increasingly emphasized the importance of continuity with the traditional interpretation of the Bible and the development of traditional doctrines. The openness theologians are calling for some revision of the tradition in light of the primary authority of the Bible, but they make these moves carefully and within limits. Some of them are paying a high personal price for having gone as far as they have in reformulating traditional doctrines.
Process theology has developed in the liberal wing of Protestantism. Many liberals have criticized various aspects of the tradition and declared their freedom from these. The critique of the tradition by process theologians is more respectful and moderate than that of many others. We pay little price for our reformulations. We have every reason to respect and appreciate the work that openness theologians are doing in a much less open context.
I do not want to imply, however, that openness theologians hold to particular doctrines, such as divine omnipotence, simply for political reasons. No doubt this rhetoric and some of the ideas it connotes are of personal importance to them. It is not just their context but also their personal convictions that are more traditional than those of most process theologians.
Process theologians live in a world in which many of their colleagues find any talk of God superfluous if not meaningless. Hence it is important to us to make clear that when we speak of God, we do not mean by that word much of what has alienated so many sensitive people in the past. Especially we are not speaking of a totalitarian ruler somewhere in the sky. We emphasize our break with what many people suppose to be the tradition, as well as with what we ourselves find in the tradition, in order to gain a hearing among those who have rejected God either as the enemy or simply as incredible. Hence the tone of our discourse is often quite different from that of openness theologians, far more different than our actual affirmations.
The role of philosophy in the two communities is also different. Process theology is a philosophical theology. In this respect it resembles the theologies of Origen, of Augustine, of Thomas, of Schleiermacher, and of Ritschl. None of these theologians thought that their philosophy led them into opposition to the Bible. On the contrary, it served to guide them in their exposition of the Bible and to develop the truths they found their. Process theology similarly seeks faithfulness to the Bible through the use of a philosophy that overcomes what we see as obstacles to biblical faith in the intellectual and cultural traditions of the West. We prize this philosophy also as enabling us to bring the Christian faith into effective relation with the sciences and with other religious traditions. Hence, as Christian believers, we highly prize process philosophy, especially in the forms given it by Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartshorne. Much that we do in this area is remote from the work of openness theologians.
Openness theology is, on the other hand, a biblical theology. That does not mean that it makes no use of philosophy, and even of process philosophy. But it uses particular insights and arguments as they assist it in the task of articulating the meaning of biblical texts. No one philosophy takes on for it the importance that Whitehead and Hartshorne have for process theologians.
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/7/2005 10:52 PM (GMT -6) |   |
jefscott said... Meph,
Would a process theist rule out the possibility of God creating, then?
Yes if you mean creating out of absolute nothingness.
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/7/2005 11:02 PM (GMT -6) |   |
rossfadeinout said...
|
I found this at "Process and Faith" website....
Dr. John B. Cobb, Jr. answers frequently asked questions regarding process thought and faith. Please click here to submit your question for Dr. Cobb in the dialogue box on the Open Forum page. Each month Dr. Cobb selects a question to answer and gives his response on this page. To see Dr. Cobb's answers to previously posed questions, check out the FAQ Archive. |
March 2005 Question
"What are the similarities and differences between process theology and openness theology?"
Dr. Cobb’s response:
1. Some Agreements
The similarities are more impressive than the differences. Openness theology has emerged among those who are committed to some form of biblical inerrancy. Most process theologians take for granted the context brought about by all sorts of critical study of the Bible. These two communities of thought and discourse out of which openness and process theologies have emerged have been strongly differentiated for a long time, and many have believed that their mutual opposition is irreconcilable. Yet these two forms of theology have come to remarkably similar conclusions.
Also, in broad terms, these two theological movements understand their task in a similar way. Whereas much conservative theology repeats and defends traditional formulations, openness theology joins process theology in the task of revision. Whereas much liberal theology has followed the linguistic turn and abandoned the effort to speak of God and the world as having their own reality independently of how we think of them, process theology joins openness theology in continuing the traditional task of using language to describe a reality that is far more than language. Both process theology and openness theology, further, look to the Bible as the chief source for the knowledge of God’s nature and relation to the world. And they find in the Bible much the same teaching.
Central to that teaching is that God is love and that other characteristics or attributes of God should be rethought in relation to that one. This means, for example, that the idea of God’s immutability should be rethought. There are certainly ways in which God does not change. For example, God always loves the creatures. But the one who loves another is affected by what happens to the one who is loved. To deny that, in favor of the abstract idea of immutability, is to reject the biblical revelation.
Similarly, the God we meet in the Bible knows what is going on in the world. Indeed, God knows everything that is going on in the world and in every human heart. Further, God’s knowledge is not so much a propositional knowledge about the world but an immediate sharing of all creaturely experience. No one and nothing can be concealed from God. This means that God, far from being impassible, as the tradition has taught, is ideally affected by all that goes on in the world.
This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently.
2. Some Disagreements
Despite the similarity of the way process theologians and openness theologians understand the way God works with creatures, there is a major theoretical difference here. Openness theologians argue that God can control everything in every detail. It is God’s choice to allow freedom to creatures. Thus they affirm that God is omnipotent even though God does not in fact exercise this power. The power of creatures is the result of the self-limitation of God, and God can at any moment revoke that self-limitation and exercise total control.
Process theologians disagree. For us, to be at all is to have power. God cannot create a powerless creature. If there are beings other than God then God does not have all the power.
Some process theologians think it best to continue to use the term “omnipotence” while redefining it. We do this in the case of omniscience. We call God “omniscient” because has all the knowledge that it is possible to have. With respect to the future, much is not now determined. God knows it is not determined. But that means God does not know how it will be determined. This is not a limitation on God’s knowledge. It is a limitation as to what there is to be known.
In a similar way, some process theologians assert that it makes no sense to assert that God has all the power. Power is a relational idea. Power is the ability to cause things to happen. But if there is very little resistance, very little power is expressed in causing something to happen. One may lift a feather with very little exertion of power. It is lifting a heavy weight that demonstrates real power. If God has all the power, so that creatures have none at all, then making creatures act as God chooses does not require any power. God might then be said to have all the power, but that would still be a very insignificant amount of power.
Accordingly, omnipotence can only mean maximum or optimum power. It must mean the ability to affect or control powerful beings. Only if creatures have great power themselves can God’s power in relation to them be significant. God’s “omnipotence,” then, means, not that God has all the power but that God has power over all other powers.
Other process theologians, and I include myself, reject the term “omnipotence” to describe God’s power, even when it is explained in this way. It is so deeply connected with controlling others that it does not point well to the kind of power that Jesus embodied and revealed. The power that is connoted by “omnipotence” is one whose exercise limits and reduces the power of the one on whom it is exercised. The power revealed in Jesus empowers others. This is the kind of power that we should primarily attribute to God if we take seriously the idea that Jesus reveals God.
This point is so central to process theology that I come back to it again and again in responding to frequently asked questions. The more fully God acts in our lives, the more we are strengthened and enabled to act effectively. The more freely we act, the more we acknowledge God’s grace as that which gives us this freedom. If we could persuade people to understand that this supreme empowering, liberating, and enlivening power is what is meant by “omnipotence,” then we could use that word. But many of us think that, at least for the present, we must avoid it.
How great is the difference here between process theologians and openness theologians? I am not sure. Openness theologians are certainly open to understanding God’s primary work as empowering, liberating, and enlivening, but it seems to be important to them to say also that God can act also in all-determining coercive fashion. God may have decided not to interrupt the course of events with these kinds of interventions, but God could do so if God wished.
Openness theologians recognize that this idea that God voluntarily limits the exercise of divine power leads them into greater problems with the evil in the world than faced by process theologians. If God could have stopped the Nazis from exterminating Jews, why did God allow the genocide to continue? They also recognize that the strict doctrine of divine omnipotence is not present in the Bible. Nevertheless, they think that for the sake of continuity with the tradition, they must continue to affirm this.
3. Different Contexts and Foci
This reason for holding to a doctrine of God’s omnipotence points to a larger difference. The conservative Christian community in which openness theology is rooted long appealed primarily to the Bible, even against later tradition. But as it found that the Bible does not clearly support some of the beliefs that are of greatest importance to it, it has increasingly emphasized the importance of continuity with the traditional interpretation of the Bible and the development of traditional doctrines. The openness theologians are calling for some revision of the tradition in light of the primary authority of the Bible, but they make these moves carefully and within limits. Some of them are paying a high personal price for having gone as far as they have in reformulating traditional doctrines.
Process theology has developed in the liberal wing of Protestantism. Many liberals have criticized various aspects of the tradition and declared their freedom from these. The critique of the tradition by process theologians is more respectful and moderate than that of many others. We pay little price for our reformulations. We have every reason to respect and appreciate the work that openness theologians are doing in a much less open context.
I do not want to imply, however, that openness theologians hold to particular doctrines, such as divine omnipotence, simply for political reasons. No doubt this rhetoric and some of the ideas it connotes are of personal importance to them. It is not just their context but also their personal convictions that are more traditional than those of most process theologians.
Process theologians live in a world in which many of their colleagues find any talk of God superfluous if not meaningless. Hence it is important to us to make clear that when we speak of God, we do not mean by that word much of what has alienated so many sensitive people in the past. Especially we are not speaking of a totalitarian ruler somewhere in the sky. We emphasize our break with what many people suppose to be the tradition, as well as with what we ourselves find in the tradition, in order to gain a hearing among those who have rejected God either as the enemy or simply as incredible. Hence the tone of our discourse is often quite different from that of openness theologians, far more different than our actual affirmations.
The role of philosophy in the two communities is also different. Process theology is a philosophical theology. In this respect it resembles the theologies of Origen, of Augustine, of Thomas, of Schleiermacher, and of Ritschl. None of these theologians thought that their philosophy led them into opposition to the Bible. On the contrary, it served to guide them in their exposition of the Bible and to develop the truths they found their. Process theology similarly seeks faithfulness to the Bible through the use of a philosophy that overcomes what we see as obstacles to biblical faith in the intellectual and cultural traditions of the West. We prize this philosophy also as enabling us to bring the Christian faith into effective relation with the sciences and with other religious traditions. Hence, as Christian believers, we highly prize process philosophy, especially in the forms given it by Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartshorne. Much that we do in this area is remote from the work of openness theologians.
Openness theology is, on the other hand, a biblical theology. That does not mean that it makes no use of philosophy, and even of process philosophy. But it uses particular insights and arguments as they assist it in the task of articulating the meaning of biblical texts. No one philosophy takes on for it the importance that Whitehead and Hartshorne have for process theologians.
Yeah, I am well aware of that site (am a member) and recently read Dr. Cobb's answer to this months question pertaining to process theology. In fact, that may have been one of the reasons I posted this here; that, and to find out if anyone else on this board preferred process over openness. Thanks for the post though.
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles HartshornePost Edited (A_Theist) : 3/8/2005 12:52:36 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 3/8/2005 7:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jeff: Would a process theist rule out the possibility of God creating, then?
A_theist: Yes if you mean creating out of absolute nothingness.
Jeff: Thanks for the reply. Would a process theist allow for non-material souls/spirits with libertarian free-will? If so, are these eternal or were they "made" out of pre-existing material according to process thought?
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
  |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/8/2005 1:24 PM (GMT -6) |   |
markporter said...
A_Theist said... </b> open theism that is more, for a lack of better word, appealing?
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Not really - if we use Jesus, his life and his works as the starting point of our theology I think that we're incredibly unlikely to end up with a process worldview - I think that the kind of authority he showed and claimed goes well beyond what process would allow. I don't understand your objections. What exactly is it about process thought's understanding of "God is Love," and in that, "God is relational," does not line up with Jesus's works? To me, the love of God in Christ is the same love in all of us and that is all due to the way God relates to the world from a process perspective. What is the problem? "The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/8/2005 1:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ross,
Oh, good SHOW with the link, man.
The FAQ link. Yo, if y'all get a chance read as MANY of those things as you can. I'm sure that after reading things much of that, you will see that process is SOOOO tight. They have sections on God being love...what that means, etc.
You will also see why I laud Doc's "Trinity and Process: A Critical Evaluation and Reconstruction of Hartshone's Di-Polar Theism Towards a Trinitarian Metaphysics" so much. On purely PHILOSOPHICAL grounds, it is groundbreaking with respect to giving logically solid grounds on affirming God's omnipotence (and corresponding ability to accomplish UNILATERAL action) within a process framework while at the same time affirming process theology's IMPORTANT insight about God's empowering, groundin and persuasive work in the world. His idea was potent enough to be placed in "Trinity in Process: A Relational Theology of God" by Joseph Bracken and Marjorie Suchoki, both WHOLESALE process theists. The book itself is about process INTERPRETATIONS of the idea of the Trinity. Within that book, Doc is among other process theists like David Ray Griffin. In that book, his work from "Trinity and Process" is summarized in an article format. He's probably the ONLY truly "evangelical" voice in there. This is noteworthy for this one fact, his work was PHILOSOPHICALLY RELEVANT and AUTHENTIC enough to process metaphysics to be placed in the book. In other words, it was NOT just a scripture heavy nod to process philosophy, but a TRUE reconstruction using abductive categories from Christian theological tenets. Cobb says in this section of "Openness Theology" http://www.ctr4process.org/pandf/cobbfaq/openth.htm
One doctrine on which a fairly clear line of disagreement can be drawn is on divine power. Although the two groups largely agree on how that poweractually operates in the world, it is important to those rooted in theevangelical community to affirm that God's giving us freedom andresponsibility is a voluntary divine decision. God's power is such that God could control everything, but God chooses to limit the exercise of that power so as to make room for creaturely freedom.
Process theologians reject this solution on three grounds. One is the problem of evil. If God could have stopped the Holocaust and failed to doso in order to honor the freedom of the Nazis, we find God's judgmenthighly questionable. The second is the nature of divine power. We believe that divine power is not coercive power but empowering, liberating, and persuasive power. The exercise of divine power enhances the power of the creatures. It does not remove it. The third is the nature of being as such. To be, in our view, is to have power. God could not have created powerless creatures because the idea of powerless creatures does not make sense. To create is to share power with creatures.
Via Doc's trinitarian reconstruction (and subsequent theological trilogy), he has offered philosophical viable and biblically adequate responses to ALL of these concerns. And, as I've said before, his worldview is built from this metaphysical basis...even as it is contextualized by the Christian theological worldview.
Bottom line: If I didn't believe in God's ability to act UNILATERALLY in human history (particularly in the ChristWork), I'd be a process theist. No exaggeration. No lie. No doubt. I'd totally be process. But I do believe in God's unilateral power...so I'm an open view theist. It's that simple.
Again, good show on that link. Y'all check that stuff out!
My thoughts.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 3/8/2005 12:33:12 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/8/2005 1:50 PM (GMT -6) |   |
jefscott said...
Jeff: Would a process theist rule out the possibility of God creating, then?
A_theist: Yes if you mean creating out of absolute nothingness.
Jeff: Thanks for the reply. Would a process theist allow for non-material souls/spirits with libertarian free-will? If so, are these eternal or were they "made" out of pre-existing material according to process thought Some form of pre-existing material that had no order exists necessarily so there is no way God can unilaterally manipulate it. God's creativity is what influences this stuff's creativity to decide it's character based off of the divine initial aim. Based off of process understanding, libertarian free-will is intrinsic to any world God would bring about because it is a metaphysical necessity. If you are talking about other-worldly creatures such as demons and angels, I don't believe process has an ontology for them based off of its metaphysics of God creating out of relative nothingness (chaos, pre-existing something [material suggests it has some sort of order so matter won't be used]). If you are talking about us as non-material souls then I would have to say that a process eschatology allows for an afterlife but usually understands our immortality to exist as the totality of our experiences in the mind of God everlastingly--since God as omniscient cannot forget.
I am sorry, but I am pulling a lot of this from my head and know I am not doing it the justice it deserves. It is always like that: when reading it you wish you could absorb it all so you could share it with others in hopes that they will share your sentiments, but when it comes down to it you only remember bits. But if you would like to still keep the dialogue going I am sure I can (slowly) clarify any questions you may have regarding the unclarity of the stuff I threw together above--call it chaos if you will  .
Peace, Paul
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
  |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/8/2005 2:21 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said...Ross, Oh, good SHOW with the link, man. The FAQ link. Yo, if y'all get a chance read as MANY of those things as you can. I'm sure that after reading things much of that, you will see that process is SOOOO tight. They have sections on God being love...what that means, etc. You will also see why I laud Doc's "Trinity and Process: A Critical Evaluation and Reconstruction of Hartshone's Di-Polar Theism Towards a Trinitarian Metaphysics" so much. On purely PHILOSOPHICAL grounds, it is groundbreaking with respect to giving logically solid grounds on affirming God's omnipotence (and corresponding ability to accomplish UNILATERAL action) within a process framework while at the same time affirming process theology's IMPORTANT insight about God's empowering, groundin and persuasive work in the world. His idea was potent enough to be placed in "Trinity in Process: A Relational Theology of God" by Joseph Bracken and Marjorie Suchoki, both WHOLESALE process theists. The book itself is about process INTERPRETATIONS of the idea of the Trinity. Within that book, Doc is among other process theists like David Ray Griffin. In that book, his work from "Trinity and Process" is summarized in an article format. He's probably the ONLY truly "evangelical" voice in there. This is noteworthy for this one fact, his work was PHILOSOPHICALLY RELEVANT and AUTHENTIC enough to process metaphysics to be placed in the book. In other words, it was NOT just a script ure heavy nod to process philosophy, but a TRUE reconstruction using abductive categories from Christian theological tenets. Cobb says in this section of "Openness Theology" http://www.ctr4process.org/pandf/cobbfaq/openth.htmOne doctrine on which a fairly clear line of disagreement can be drawn is on divine power. Although the two groups largely agree on how that poweractually operates in the world, it is important to those rooted in theevangelical community to affirm that God's giving us freedom andresponsibility is a voluntary divine decision. God's power is such that God could control everything, but God chooses to limit the exercise of that power so as to make room for creaturely freedom.
Process theologians reject this solution on three grounds. One is the problem of evil. If God could have stopped the Holocaust and failed to doso in order to honor the freedom of the Nazis, we find God's judgmenthighly questionable. The second is the nature of divine power. We believe that divine power is not coercive power but empowering, liberating, and persuasive power. The exercise of divine power enhances the power of the creatures. It does not remove it. The third is the nature of being as such. To be, in our view, is to have power. God could not have created powerless creatures because the idea of powerless creatures does not make sense. To create is to share power with creatures.Via Doc's trinitarian reconstruction (and subsequent theological trilogy), he has offered philosophical viable and biblically adequate responses to ALL of these concerns. And, as I've said before, his worldview is built from this metaphysical basis...even as it is contextualized by the Christian theological worldview. Bottom line: If I didn't believe in God's ability to act UNILATERALLY in human history (particularly in the ChristWork), I'd be a process theist. No exaggeration. No lie. No doubt. I'd totally be process. But I do believe in God's unilateral power...so I'm an open view theist. It's that simple. Again, good show on that link. Y'all check that stuff out! My thoughts.
Did Doc ever make any comments to you about Hartshorne's response to his revision; was there a response to his revision? I own the book but haven't read it; however, I can see, by reading some of Greg's books the influence of Hartshorne. I swear, when I first read Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes I heard the echo of Greg Boyd's work. I am not saying that is the only source, but I could see some influence which I think is awesome. Are you familiar with Lewis S. Ford (he has an essay in Trinity and Process)? I asked a question on some process list-serv about Trinity and Process and he replied that he critiqued it in "the Modern Schoolman 71/4" which I would like to get a copy of.
Not to be audacious, but maybe someday I will write a critical evaluation of Doc's Trinitarian metaphysics towards a Hartshornean di-polar theism which will convert you to a full process thinker. How do you like that? "The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  markporter Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 263 | Posted 3/8/2005 2:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | A_Theist said...markporter said...A_Theist said...
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Not really - if we use Jesus, his life and his works as the starting point of our theology I think that we're incredibly unlikely to end up with a process worldview - I think that the kind of authority he showed and claimed goes well beyond what process would allow.I don't understand your objections. What exactly is it about process thought's understanding of "God is Love," and in that, "God is relational," does not line up with Jesus's works? To me, the love of God in Christ is the same love in all of us and that is all due to the way God relates to the world from a process perspective. What is the problem? As far as I can see it the biblical picture of Jesus was one who demonstrated a unilateral authority over nature, if this lines up with process thought then forgive me, but I thought that it didn't | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/8/2005 2:33 PM (GMT -6) |   |
TGB said...If you have some change to spare, a good buy is: Divine Power in Process Theism: A Philosophical Critique by openness author David Basinger. I'm with Mephi. God can and does step in and break the furniture. That's a problem in Process thought. And too, I go with creation ex nihilo, and that's a problem with Process. Tom
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2812
Here is an essay entitled "Process Theism Versus Free-Will Theism: A Response To Griffin," by David Basinger if you are interested. I haven't read it fully yet, but I guess it still isn't convincing because David Ray still critiques free-will theism.
Later
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  markporter Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 263 | Posted 3/8/2005 2:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | [quote]but I guess it still isn't convincing because David Ray still critiques free-will theism.
Well if you work that way then pretty much any worldview isn't convincing because people still critique pretty much everything | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/8/2005 2:41 PM (GMT -6) |   |
markporter said...
A_Theist said...
markporter said...
A_Theist said...
<FONT>
<FONT color=#b00a00>
Not really - if we use Jesus, his life and his works as the starting point of our theology I think that we're incredibly unlikely to end up with a process worldview - I think that the kind of authority he showed and claimed goes well beyond what process would allow.I don't understand your objections. What exactly is it about process thought's understanding of "God is Love," and in that, "God is relational," does not line up with Jesus's works? To me, the love of God in Christ is the same love in all of us and that is all due to the way God relates to the world from a process perspective. What is the problem? As far as I can see it the biblical picture of Jesus was one who demonstrated a unilateral authority over nature, if this lines up with process thought then forgive me, but I thought that it didn't
It doesn't line up. I don't think a process Christology usually takes miracles in the bible literally. But I don't think miracles are of primary importance in their understanding of Jesus--I am not a Christian because Jesus calmed a storm or withered a fig tree; I am a Christian because of my love for God. I guess I don't have a problem with it because I am not an infallibilist when it comes to the bible, because it assumes omnipotence which I fully deny if it means overriding the freedom of creautres so they can infallibly pen historical events.
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/8/2005 4:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | | VERY interesting. Say, A_Theist. Are you a straight up process theist now? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 3/8/2005 6:15 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said... VERY interesting. Say, A_Theist. Are you a straight up process theist now? Straight up, if it is the process theism David Ray Griffin espouses. I feel I resonate with his work, especially his Reenchantment Without Supernaturalism , and have allowed it to shape my theism, or, as I prefer to say, "panentheism." I also am exploring other thinkers as well to see what they have to say. Ford has developed a process theism that allows God to act from the future. Now I don't quite know how it transforms process theism (as the title of the book this thesis is defended in suggests), but I find it interesting and am going to slowly pursue it. And, as always, I am reading Hartshorne who greatly admire.
Sorry if this is more than you asked for. It is just that process theology is my passion and I don't see it going away anytime soon. It was also nice to find out from this post what you believe. For a while I was confused on what particular theological stance you took. Nonetheless, I respect your intellect and passion for theology and philosophy and want to be an encouragement.
I plan on coming up to Minnesota in a couple of weeks to visit Woodland Hills. Is it possible I could find you there when I am in town and chat for a bit? Let me know.
Paul
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
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