Bryan,

I guess I would disagree that all actions "stem" from thoughts. Maybe you have a more robust psychology than what you included in your post. I perform all sorts of acts without some deliberate cognitive process preceeding my action. For example, I play the piano (though I am not very good). Once I know a song, I don't deliberate over which keys to play. I just do it. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but it seems clear to me that many, if not most of my actions are done with little to no deliberate thought preceeding the action.

Concerning God's knowledge of the future, I hold to the classical view of God. To the best of my knowledge, either view of the relation of human thought to human action would be irrelevant. According to my view, God does not know the future via anything extrinsic to Himself. What have you come up with so far?

Matt

Bryan,

Good question man. I would say that from an Open Theist's perspective if the action followed immediately from the mental decision, then God would know of the physical action in advance. But I would not describe this as God having foreknowledge of our future free action. I would say that God knows the decision as we make it and from the volitional decision knows the necessary following physical action.

Ross

Matt,

I agree that you would not really "think" about which keys you'd hit next playing the piano, but you would if you were learning or composing a new song and in the case of an existing song, God would know that song and thus know what keys would be next in the sequence so I don't really see this analogy as helping here, though I realize that analogies break down and I may be guilty of missing your point. 

You said: Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but it seems clear to me that many, if not most of my actions are done with little to no deliberate thought preceeding the action.

Somehow, I think you HAVE to be.  But that will soon become clear, I think.  For now, I should ask: Do you really think that most of your actions come without even a second or two of thought?  For example, if you get up from your chair, suddenly, unexpectedly even, to make a sandwich instead of finishing your post, is this not because you were first hungry and thought, in however of an abbreviated sense, "Man, food is more urgent than what I'm doing right now" or at very least, "I should get up now" ? 

Can you expand on "God does not know the future via anything extrinsic to Himself" ?  I would take this to mean, in a simplified version, God knows the future not because it is a certain way, but because he knows things that "aren't."  Is this what you mean?  To me this concept is completely incoherent.  Also, when you say, "classical view of god," I take this to mean, you would be considered a classical Arminian (God knows the future exhaustively and it is exhaustively settled, but humans have self-determining freedom) or a derminist (Calvinist), which probably doesn't need defining.  Am I on track with your view? 

Bryan

Bryan,

Sorry it has taken so long for me to respond. I haven't been checking the board as frequently these past weeks. I was responding to your statement, "all actions stem from thoughts (they do right?)". You made a categorical statement which is refuted by one counter-example. I gave you a possible counter-example. But I would agree that most of our actions are preceeded by some kind of thought.

Atthewell,

You asked,

"Matt, you are saying God is with us in the moment, and between the moment, causing the action?"

God is omnipresent, but I am not sure that's what you are talking about. I am saying that God is the primary efficient Cause of the universe. This includes the things inside the universe. Since we are in the universe God also caused us. The question then is, "Does God cause our free actions?" I imagine that's why you asked the following question.

"Would you consider yourself a fatalist?"

No. I would not consider myself a fatalist. I hold to a LFW view.

Matt

ATW,

An efficient cause is the one doing the causing, or the agent. Efficient causality is agent causality. Are you familiary with Aristotles 4 causes? Or the medievals 6 causes? I say that God is the efficient cause of our existing. I would imagine that you agree with that. The point you may disagree with is saying that God is the efficient cause of our actions.

If Robert Koons is right, and their can be two efficient causes of an action, then God and man may be able to cause an action. God would be the primary efficient cause of our action and we would be the secondary efficient cause of our action.

How is this not fatalism? Fatalism, theological fatalism to be more accurate, says that God is the cause of our actions and we are not the cause of our actions. Fatalism may place us in the causal chain somewhere, say as the instrumental cause of our actions, but my view affirms both God as the efficient cause of our action and man as the efficient cause of our action.

Is this a contradiction? I dont' think so, though I am up for some discussion on the issue. I am not saying that "I am the efficient cause of my action" and "I am not the efficient cause of my action." Nor am I saying "God is the efficient cause of my action" and "God is not the efficient cause of my action." I am saying that both God and man are the causes of man's action.

Matt