Hi Paul.

I only reply because I was formerly dispensational following E.W. Bullinger and others from England.

On the open view: Most of my family (being dispensational) seem to be very receptive to the open view for various reasons.

On a young earth: I would be sympathetic to the young earth position, though personally I am still up in the air (I can see both sides). I want to point out that this issue is completely separate from the open view. I would say that many who hold the open view may be biased against the young earth position for two reasons. a) Most only know the un-scholarly rhetoric of many young earth proponants, rather than the strong evidence of credible young earth scientists. b) An older earth view via "gap" or "day age" seems to fit better into at least Boyd's "warefare theology". Not to knock the warfare view, since I don't know too much about it, just making an observation.

On pre-Millennialism: Like I said, I was formerly dispenational, pre-Mil being unique to this corner of theology. I have since come something close to A-Mil, ie, much of Revelation did infact take place literally in the 1st century, much of Revelation also takes place literally in the every generation since, and finally much of Revelation will take place literally during some wild and crazy and terrible times in the future, surrounding the "Aramageddon", fire, and a new heaven and new earth.

On literalism: I guess I would overall agree with themuzicman. Having an extreemly high view of scripture does not mean taking it all literally. It means rather getting as close as possible to the original meaning, esp the intention of the author and how the original recipients would have understood it when it was read aloud to them. This is a far cry from the higher critics of the 19th and 20th century who contend that scripture has no literal meaning, has no accurate recording and contains no real history. So am I a literalist against liberal theology, yes. But do I think in the end times a literal dragon will come out of the sea, no. Do I believe that God is literally a rock, that I am literally a branch, or that to evangelize I need to throw a fishing line into the water, then clearly no.

God bless and welcome to the site.

MattBrown

Thank you all for your comments.

Jefscott, thank you in particular for yours.  I suppose the day and the hour might also be the "specific set of circumstances" which finally trip the wire of the Tribulation scenario.  Nevertheless, you raise an excellent point and I shall consider it further.

If the "Open View" be correct, it would seem to me to be out of character to have such a day of destiny fixed with 100% certainty, irregardless of the actual situation on the ground, some 2000+ years after Christ spoke about His Father knowing the "day and the hour".

Of all the deadlines that were extended in Biblical history, it would seem that the Aramageddon date with destiny affecting more people than at any other time in earth history; would be the leading candidate for extended grace and Divine patience.

We could be into overtime right now I suppose, and not even be aware of that fact.

Regards

Paul B.

Psalms 119   

⁹⁶I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

   ⁹⁷O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.  

I agree. The end times events do affect so many...the whole universe even. God's grace almost demands that he will hold out as far as he can stretch the nature of his divine patience.

I think there may be a good chance that the early christians were right to assume that the end was near and that Christ would return in their generation. It may not just have been a possibility but a high probability. God, being the eternal optimist, was hoping that during the Acts period that the Jews ("to the Jew first") would be overwhelmingly converted to the Messiah and then the Messianic Jews would then turn and overwhelmingly convert the whole Gentile world. Thus ushering in the great events of the anti-christ vs christians, but in this scenario God intervenes and Christ returns and wins the final battle. Yet unfortunately the Jews (on the whole) continued to progressively reject the risen Lord and his second chance throughout Acts. Then God moves to plan B and inserts Paul, to convert the Gentiles without the help of the Jews and thus provoke the Jews to jealously, ushering in a provisional age of grace, setting the stage for a long 2000+ year wait.

Thoughts?

Matt:  God, being the eternal optimist, was hoping that during the Acts period that the Jews ("to the Jew first") would be overwhelmingly converted to the Messiah and then the Messianic Jews would then turn and overwhelmingly convert the whole Gentile world. Thus ushering in the great events of the anti-christ vs christians, but in this scenario God intervenes and Christ returns and wins the final battle.

Jeff:  Very interesting thought.  Have you thought that thru enough to flesh it out with some details relating to specific prophecies?

Psalms 119   

⁹⁶I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

   ⁹⁷O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.  

Psalms 119   

⁹⁶I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

   ⁹⁷O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.  

The fact which you pointed out that "the gentiles generally wandered around in darkness, serving false gods, even as God worked though His people (the Israelites)", is testament to what generally happened to nations that had not the law, the covenants, the temple, the priesthood, etc. 

God did not work amongst the Gentile nations as he did in Israel, and in that sense their situation was hopeless.  If a Gentile wanted to know about the true God, he'd best get on his horse a la' the "Ethopian Eunuch" and search God out for himself.

This general ignorance amongst the Gentiles began to radically change when the Jews (nationally) gave up what was theirs first and foremost, "The promised Messiah"; who was to be the deliverer of Israel, the Redeemer of Israel, and who would then exalt Israel over all the other nations of the world.   

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."Acts 13:46

Regards

Paul M. Blackmore

Psalms 119   

⁹⁶I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

   ⁹⁷O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.  

Post Edited (Paul M. Blackmore) : 4/8/2005 5:26:23 AM (GMT-5)

Muz:  What about Ninevah? They certainly weren't going to enter into the old covenant, yet they repented. Were they ultimately condemned, as well?

Jeff:  Don't know for sure, but it seems conceivable to me.  The mere fact that their repentance required a miraculous sign might suggest it was a repentance of fear only.  That kind of behavior would be consistent with how they "feared" their own "gods."

But Christ, Himself, spoke of people who change only for a while, like the cases in the parable of the sower.    Also, think of the case of the magician in Samaria in Acts.  Also, think of Israelites in the wilderness who changed for a while but were later judged.  Peter talks of those who "escaped" but whose latter end is worse for falling away. 

Christ said had Sodom and Gomorrah seen the signs He did, they would have repented.  If "repented" in that statement equals conversion, why, in your opinion, didn't God give Sodom the signs so they could be converted?

Muz:  If so, what was the point?

Post Edited (jefscott) : 4/8/2005 8:08:55 AM (GMT-5)

Muz: What about Ninevah? They certainly weren't going to enter into the old covenant, yet they repented. Were they ultimately condemned, as well? If so, what was the point?

I agree that Ninevah did not have to enter into the Old Cov or convert to Judism to be saved from condemnation.

I think they may have been ultimately condemned but only because that same generation that sincerely repented, within a generation or two of Jonah, returned to their godlessness, and God sends Jonah part 2 aka Nahum.

I would agree with jefscott, the point of Jonah was the ending. God is so loving and merciful at heart, not willing that any should perish that he has tons of "pity" and is always giving humans and culture and nations 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances to repent and return to him. What a great God hey! Desiring his creatures who constantly hurt him and let him down to turn back to him so he can welcome us back into his arms. Amen and amen.

Post Edited (JEE) : 5/14/2005 5:38:05 PM (GMT-5)