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Nathan Straub
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 5/15/2005 8:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | 1. God uses secondary causes. Not only does He assure they do not get out of control, He orchestrates them for His own ends. How then could He be ignorant of these? Do you think the "best of all worlds" theory is true, when just left to chance?
2. All things work together for the good of those... who are called according to His purpose. I believe that both the calling and the way all things work are according to His purpose.
3. There are many more contingencies 3k years away than one day away.
4. Since God is infinitely wise and purposeful, He has infinite purposes, which amount to every segment of time.
5. The a fortiori statement works well with the scope and meaning of the Isaiah passage. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/15/2005 2:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
Nathan Straub said...
Suffice to say, that "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all my good pleasure" leaves no room for God's plans to be thwarted.
God qualifies "purpose" with "My". I.E. there are other purposes out there besides His. He doesn't say how comprehensive His purpose is in this passage, hence the "exhaustive" is only in your mind a-priori to coming to this verse.
Nathan Straub said...
"Declaring the end from the beginning" does not allow for anything to be left out of that end. Furthermore, a fortiori, if God declares the furthest end, how can He not know the middle?
And yet a referee can declare the end of the game from the beginning and not have meticulous control of every event and choice in the game.
Humans can accomplish their ends and purposes without having meticulous control of everybody and every aspect of the process, is God so inept He can't do the same?
God has not listed very many of His purposes in scripture which leads me to conclude that we have a lot of freedom within His overall plan of having a bride for Christ.
To say His purposes are infinite is not supported by scripture AND one might wonder if it's true, what are His purposes for pedophilia for example? Or rape? Or genocide and ethnic cleansing? To say God determines everything is ridiculous because even our belief in the openness and dynamic quality of God comes from Him and thus, has His sanction.
 Post Edited (Laika) : 5/15/2005 3:37:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Nathan Straub
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 5/15/2005 9:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika said...
Humans can accomplish their ends and purposes without having meticulous control of everybody and every aspect of the process, is God so inept He can't do the same?
Humans can do that because they are not God. The job description is very different. Furthermore, humans are inept because they cannot control everything: who can accomplish all their purposes except God?
Laika said...
God has not listed very many of His purposes in scripture which leads me to conclude that we have a lot of freedom within His overall plan of having a bride for Christ.
I suppose you would conclude that, but it would only be an argument from ignorance. And where do you get the idea that because God's plans comprehend every detail in the world, we don't have a lot of freedom or responsibility?
Laika said...
To say His purposes are infinite is not supported by scripture
Psa. 57:2 says "God who fulfills his purpose for me." Is it reasonable to assume God has an individual purpose for each and every person? (Do a study on predestination.) If this is the case, God's purposes include everything in human existence.
Prov. 16:1-4 said...
PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
PR 16:2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him,
but motives are weighed by the LORD.
PR 16:3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do,
and your plans will succeed.
PR 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends--
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Eph. 1:11-12 said...
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Laika said...
AND one might wonder if it's true, what are His purposes for pedophilia for example? Or rape? Or genocide and ethnic cleansing?
Glad you asked!
Gen. 45:4-8 said...
4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, "Come close to me." When they had done so, he said, "I am your brother Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt! 5 And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will not be plowing and reaping. 7 But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 "So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt.
Lk. 22:22 said...
The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.
Acts 4:27-28 said...
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Revelation 17:15-18 said...
15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
And I haven't even gotten to Samson yet!
Laika said...
To say God determines everything is ridiculous because even our belief in the openness and dynamic quality of God comes from Him and thus, has His sanction.
2 Thes. 2:10b-12 said...
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Answer your question?
Nathan | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul M. Blackmore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 53
| Posted 5/16/2005 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | |
There is a very high decree of determinism in God's prophetic plan. To fully understand this would be to fully understand how God runs the universe. This knowledge is beyond human grasp as Solomon pointed out.
Ecclesiastes 8:17Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea farther; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
To assume a fully determined story of God's interactions with man however, flys in the face of all sanity, all logic, God's morality, and the written Word itself.
It is a genuine pity that the "deterministic-minded" Christians of this world, are so hidebound by tradition and fear of their "forefathers in the faith", that they are unable to grasp the meaning of a world where genuine hope really exists for each and every member of the human race.
Regards
Paul M. Blackmore
Psalms 119
96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/16/2005 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Laika said...
Humans can accomplish their ends and purposes without having meticulous control of everybody and every aspect of the process, is God so inept He can't do the same?
Nathan Straub said...
Humans can do that because they are not God. The job description is very different. Furthermore, humans are inept because they cannot control everything: who can accomplish all their purposes except God?
Laika:
Humans are more adept at accomplishing their purposes without total control because....... "they are not God"? That's your answer?
When control freaks are generally regarded as weak, insecure people, unable to accomplish anything without total control, why would we consider God as inept?
control freak Slang
n.
One who has an obsessive need to exert control over people and situations.
Jesus seems to go against this control freak idea, picking only twelve (11 plus Paul) disciples to carry His message to the world. That's a better picture of God,
able to accomplish His purpose starting only with twelve.
Other picture of how God can operate with limited resources, Gideon and the 300, the widow's mite, Jesus and the five loaves of bread and two fish.
scripture argues the other way from you, God can accomplish MUCH using limited resources, a picture of an adept God.
Laika said...
God has not listed very many of His purposes in scripture which leads me to conclude that we have a lot of freedom within His overall plan of having a bride for Christ.
Nathan Straub said...
I suppose you would conclude that, but it would only be an argument from ignorance. And where do you get the idea that because God's plans comprehend every detail in the world, we don't have a lot of freedom or responsibility?
Laika:
No, refraining from making statements based on something that is NOT there, is not "arguing from ignorance". It's logical and scientific and proper biblical exegesis (Occam's Razor). Arguing for something that is not there, that is appealing to mystery which is ridiculous because if it's truly mystery and hidden, you wouldn't know what it is.
Laika said...
To say His purposes are infinite is not supported by scripture
Nathan Straub said...
Psa. 57:2 says "God who fulfills his purpose for me." Is it reasonable to assume God has an individual purpose for each and every person? (Do a study on predestination.) If this is the case, God's purposes include everything in human existence.
Laika:
Now you're using finite purposes to prove infinite purposes. That's invalid.
Of course God has a purpose for each of a finite number of people. One of His purposes is for each of these to come to Jesus:
2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You need to get clear what the difference is between God having a purpose for each of a finite number of people and your (unsupported) claim that God has an infinite number of purposes.
Nathan Straub said...
Eph. 1:11-12 said...
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Laika:
How were we chosen? How is the verb "chosen" modified? "In Him" we were chosen. God does not select individuals for salvation.
In the first covenant, God did not select individuals, He only selected ONE person, Abraham. Anyone born "into" Abraham became one of the chosen people.
In the second covenant, God did not select individuals, He only selected ONE person, Jesus. Anyone born "into" Jesus become one of the elect "in Him".
How does one get "into Him"?
Romans 10:9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
All those who have assented to being placed "in Him" become part of the elect for whom much has been predestined.
Laika said...
AND one might wonder if it's true, what are His purposes for pedophilia for example? Or rape? Or genocide and ethnic cleansing?
Nathan Straub said...
Glad you asked!
Laika:
If God is the one causing the rape and Satan opposes God, would Satan be working to prevent the rape?
Most people would then say that Satan is good and God is evil. Would this be wrong?
If God is designing, planning and carrying out genocide and we're to oppose this kind of evil, are we opposing God by trying to stop genocide?
Where are some examples of Jesus carrying out rape, genocide, etc?
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/16/2005 9:40 AM (GMT -6) | | 1. Matter is neither created nor destroyed, thus all possiblie molecules are currently employed -- Conservation of Matter.
http://www.101science.com/lawofcon.htm
2. The molecules that make up my body right now, cannot make up anything else right now. -- Law of Non-contradiction
http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/phenom/old/lawnon.html
3. The molecules that currently make up my body cannot be currently employed elsewhere in order to be "viewed". Molecules that are currently employed elsewhere cannot be currently "viewed" as making up my "future" body. -- From 1 and 2
Thus, my "future" body, or any collection of molecules, cannot currently exist in another configuration and thus cannot be currently "viewed" in another configuration.
i.e. the future does not exist yet, and cannot be viewed
Post Edited (Laika) : 5/16/2005 9:45:39 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/16/2005 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/16/2005 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | |
jefscott said...I TAKE IT BACK!!!
Too late!!!!
The only question is, will the future Bobber see this in the past, or will the past Bobber see this in the future?
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/16/2005 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Nathan Straub
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 5/28/2005 1:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul M. Blackmore said...
There is a very high decree of determinism in God's prophetic plan. To fully understand this would be to fully understand how God runs the universe. This knowledge is beyond human grasp as Solomon pointed out.
To assume a fully determined story of God's interactions with man however, flys in the face of all sanity, all logic, God's morality, and the written Word itself.
It is a genuine pity that the "deterministic-minded" Christians of this world, are so hidebound by tradition and fear of their "forefathers in the faith", that they are unable to grasp the meaning of a world where genuine hope really exists for each and every member of the human race.
Paul, I am not afraid of the Reformers. In fact, I did a lot of study and argumentation over the course of four years to disprove the Calvinist system. My present conclusion is not wholly determinist, in the sense that there is no genuine interaction. I believe God's eternity is atemporal, thus he sees the end from the beginning. I believe that because there is no limit with God, he supervises everything and somehow all agents work -- wittingly or unwittingly, but mostly willingly -- and bring about the plan he has decreed and known to the last detail. And existentially, and truly, there is genuine interaction.
Honestly, I'm afraid of the slippery exegetical slope that runs from arminianism to open theism to women preachers to the social gospel. There. Did I miss anybody?
As for "a world where genuine hope really exists for each and every member of the human race"? That hope does exist in several senses. Hope is a member of the enchiridion of virtues. And "love... hopes all things." Yet I don't put my hope in sinful people. I put my hope in God. There is hope in these senses:
1. Hope that "the Lord will indeed give what is good, and our land will yield its harvest." And that he will use me to help bring it to pass.
2. Hope in the sense that I don't know how many will be gathered in.
3. Doing all I can to "by all possible means, save some." | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul M. Blackmore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 53
| Posted 5/28/2005 6:46 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Dear Nathan;
Your fears are not rational. To conclude that a genuinely interactive God which the Bible describes, somehow means that the true gospel must be corrupted into a "social gospel" preached by women as a matter of course, is just ridiculous. 
I conceed however that those who hold the "Open" position, seem to have slipped badly in that direction. For this reason alone I refuse to be called an "open theist".
None of this changes the Biblical record however. The Biblical record which cannot be altered, supports the view of a future which contains many undetermined details and events.
The liberal, non-literal, Biblical stance of the few Open Theists I have met, has been one of the greatest disappointments I have ever experienced. How people can hold to such a Biblically correct view which defies tradition and history, without standing on the secure rock of literal scripture interpretation to support such a view, is beyond my ability to understand.
Surely there is a reason that such a view has come to be understood in our day. Yes?
There is genuine hope for this world. In my opinion however, most people are just too stupid, indifferent, or stubborn to see it. I conclude therefore that the "Open view", rejected in the main by conservative believers, remains providentially under wraps untill the tribulation begins.
When there really is no more hope, that's when stubborn men will run with a vengeance to what the Bible has taught all along. Alas it will be too late in a post-rapture world.
For the moment, the "Open" view seems to rest solely in the hands of liberals who haven't a clue what such teaching could mean in the weighty, weighty matter of seeking to alter the future of this world for the better.
Witness the level of interest in the question posed by this thread, "Open theists to save the world?" 
Regards
Paul M. Blackmore
Psalms 119
96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul M. Blackmore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 53
| Posted 5/28/2005 10:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Point taken.
Psalms 119
96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 6/4/2005 7:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Jesus is a liberal. (If the only options are liberal and conservative.)
"You have heard it said, but..."
I'm looking forward to a new translation that renders the term "Pharisee" properly as "Conservative." Ok. Maybe that's too much. BTW, throwing the term "Literal" around is going to cause confusion unless you take a few hours every time you say it to explain what you don't mean.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 6/4/2005 7:26:15 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul M. Blackmore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 53
| Posted 6/4/2005 10:05 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Sahid wrote "I'm looking forward to a new translation..."
Whats the matter,  can't find one "liberal" enough to suit you and the Lord?
Psalms 119
96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul M. Blackmore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 53
| Posted 6/9/2005 5:41 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Dear JEE;
I checked out your website link, although I didn't bother to go through the rigamarole to sign up to use it. Seems interesting.
Like you, I also describe myself as a "Biblicist" above all else. My background is ultra-conservative "brethren" and hence the mantra of "truth above all else" was drilled into my head from a very tender age.
My truth search has led to me break from "exclusive brethrenism", and from the "Calvinism" it quietly holds. Having become a "Young Earth Creationist" through the ministry of Ken Hamm and others, I became very much a "Biblicist" like yourself.
I arrived at the "Open view" on my own, by simply refusing to accept any explanation of a passage, that didn't jive with what the printed Word plainly said; scholars and theologians notwithstanding.
Realizing now that a degree of openness regarding the future (perhaps a greater degree than we dare imagine), is the unalterable record and rule of Biblical history and teaching, I have become facinated by what that might mean in our world today.
As a revivalist pastor, what hope do you have for a major revival today in North America? I suspect you are not a dispensationalist believing in an imminent "rapture", and hence this question might be less urgent for you than for me; but nevertheless, I would be delighted to hear your musings on this matter.
Your brother in Christ
Paul
Psalms 119
96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 6/9/2005 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul M. Blackmore said...
As a revivalist pastor, what hope do you have for a major revival today in North America?
I guess I would have to say that "a major revival" would entirely depend on how submissive a large portion of society were to the influence of the Spirit of God. Presently, I think I see evidence in scripture for BOTH great revival AND great apostasy in the last days, happening concurrently, although I must admit that Jesus' words that "few there be that find it" seems rather difficult to explain if indeed a major last-days revival were even a bare possibility.
Paul said: I suspect you are not a dispensationalist believing in an imminent "rapture", and hence this question might be less urgent for you than for me; but nevertheless, I would be delighted to hear your musings on this matter.
Actually, my background is four generations deep in the Assemblies of God (though I now am in a sister org to the A/G). As you probably know, the A/G is staunchly "pretrib" in its view of the end times. While I certainly hope the pretrib theory is true, the emphasis of my studies in recent years has not been on eschatological theories. I am premillenial, though I recognize some good points to amillenialism as well as postmillenialism. Due to my painfully obvious ability to be wrong, and due to the fact that I honestly don't see what difference one's eschatology makes in the way one lives, and due to the strong influence of revivalist thought on my mind, I tend to emphasize obedience to God in the present rather than speculation about what God might or might not do in the future, though of course I affirm with scripture that God will ultimately triumph in this world.
I also came to the Open View basically on my own; before I had ever heard of "Open Theism," I preached a sermon once based on 2 Kings 20 to my congregation, entitled, "Prayer That Changes God's Mind!" When I first began studying what is called the Open View in 1999, the only problems I really had were: 1) How does biblical predictive prophecy work, then? and 2) Trying to grasp why it took theologians so long to catch on to something that to me was so obviously self-evident in the scriptures?
Blessings in Christ,
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.netPost Edited (JEE) : 6/9/2005 2:11:36 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul M. Blackmore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 53
| Posted 6/15/2005 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you for your post.
My personal view is that the liklihood of one last major revival is marginal at best. If Christians cannot be sold on the vision for such a thing (from the "open" perspective in particular), then I see no reason for God to delay this world's date with destiny any longer. Amen, even so come Lord Jesus!
Blessings in Christ
Paul M. Blackmore
Psalms 119
96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. | | Back to Top | | |
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