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Holiday
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 3/9/2005 9:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hello all,
I was wondering if Doc has put forth anywhere the ways in which God comes to know with certainty which future events will occur.
As far as I know:
1. the character solidificaiton bit, or the becoming of the occasional molonistic reality. Peter's denial
2. perfect present knowledge of what causal circumstances may bring about. So in other words, God knew the plate-techtonic situaiton in his perfect present knowledge and thus knew that at time X the earthquake would occur at time Y
3. What God Himself foreordains he will do. Incarnates himself and runs round in first century palestine saying kill me.
Are there more ways, and have I understood these correctly?
thanks for your time,
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Holiday
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 3/21/2005 12:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
I think I understand your caveat, but isn't that what my third option says? God foreordains the second coming. So when he picks that time he will know it as a future true proposition becuase he has determined it be so. Right? Wrong?
thanks for your comment
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young_think_tank
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Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 5/4/2005 1:16 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't want to distract you from you line of thought, nor the direction of your argument Holiday, but I believe there are several other prime examples for God's exhaustive foreknowledge...
In Isaiah 5:1-7, God illustrates Israel as His vineyard and Himself as the vinedresser, and as the metaphor progresses, the reader is informed that this passage is referring to the present rebellion of Israel. The particular phrase, “Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?” (Isaiah 5:4, NASU) attracts much attention in the issue of God's foreknowledge. In answer to this (in what i believe to be a misconception on the part of the Open Theist), God essentially and clearly addresses the argument brought against Him some 700 years prior! In Deuteronomy 31:16-21, God foresees exactly how, when, and why Israel will rebel—plainly “redeeming” Himself from the latter accusation and plainly demonstrating His exhaustive knowledge of the future.
In the book of Daniel, there are numerous predictions and prophecies in chapters 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 that span entire centuries with clear, decisive, and true predictions. Furthermore, it must not be overlooked that most, if not all, of the events prophesied required an enormous number of future free human choices and actions for their fulfillment. Who could know such an outcome, with such a number of variables? Only a God who can lay out the centuries and still call them simple and unpretentious—only a God who fully understands the future could predict and bring to pass such a great amount of events and still not be limited by man's free will.
Finally, Isaiah 46:9-11 says, “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (NKJV) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/4/2005 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | |
young_think_tank said...
In Isaiah 5:1-7, God illustrates Israel as His vineyard and Himself as the vinedresser, and as the metaphor progresses, the reader is informed that this passage is referring to the present rebellion of Israel. The particular phrase, “Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?” (Isaiah 5:4, NASU) attracts much attention in the issue of God's foreknowledge. In answer to this (in what i believe to be a misconception on the part of the Open Theist), God essentially and clearly addresses the argument brought against Him some 700 years prior! In Deuteronomy 31:16-21, God foresees exactly how, when, and why Israel will rebel—plainly “redeeming” Himself from the latter accusation and plainly demonstrating His exhaustive knowledge of the future.
The event in Deuteronomy involves present knowlege.
Deut. 31: 21"Then it shall come about, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify before them as a witness (for it shall not be forgotten from the lips of their descendants); for I know their intent which they are developing today, before I have brought them into the land which I swore."
At the time God talked to Moses, He knew the intent they were developing. That is present knowlege.
young_think_tank said...
In the book of Daniel, there are numerous predictions and prophecies in chapters 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 that span entire centuries with clear, decisive, and true predictions. Furthermore, it must not be overlooked that most, if not all, of the events prophesied required an enormous number of future free human choices and actions for their fulfillment. Who could know such an outcome, with such a number of variables? Only a God who can lay out the centuries and still call them simple and unpretentious—only a God who fully understands the future could predict and bring to pass such a great amount of events and still not be limited by man's free will.
If that's the case:
1. I know I will wear white socks tomorrow to work.
2. Tomorrow when you see me wearing white socks at work, you will know that I not only know my future free choices, but also those of many other people, such as my daughters for not burning down the house tonight, my wife for not throwing all my socks out tonight, someone else for not ramming my truck on the way to work and me not getting there.
Ezekial 18 deals with this mechanistic idea that we're all just automatons on an endless causal chain. No one can fault something else for the choices they make. Even our law courts acknowlege this, letting people off the hook ONLY by proving physical coercion or insanity.
young_think_tank said...
Finally, Isaiah 46:9-11 says, “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (NKJV)
You've shown no verses that quantify ALL future things, only where God says He knows what He is going to do in a few instances. Note all the future tense God uses:
"Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring (not "knowing") the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”
God says He'll do some things and when the time comes, He does them. Where's the "exhaustive fore-knowlege"? You're just showing His volitional will for a few future choices of His.
Here's some more Isaiah future volitional will:
Isaiah 48:3"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
Declare != know
"Suddently I acted" is God acting in time to do what He said He would do.
If scripture states the exhaustive fore-knowlege of God, where's the verse about the 1969 Mets?
 Post Edited (Laika) : 5/4/2005 5:43:15 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/4/2005 9:40 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...Hi Laika. I love that Deut 31.21 clause. Oh yeah. Nicely done. Eh, would you like me to sweep up now that you're finished or do you have any more demolition to do? Just let me know. We wanna keep the body parts off the floor! Eh, Young-think-tank, the smelling salts are in the cabinet. Blessings, Tom
Heh, heh. As good as all those declarative, volitional, temporal statements God says to Isaiah.
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young_think_tank
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Date Joined May 2005
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| Posted 5/4/2005 11:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika said...
You've shown no verses that quantify ALL future things, only where God says He knows what He is going to do in a few instances.
Laika said...
Declare != know "Suddently I acted" is God acting in time to do what He said He would do.
If scripture states the exhaustive fore-knowlege of God, where's the verse about the 1969 Mets?
I have to admit, very well said and very well presented. Furthermore, I apologize for not clarifying myself. I am going to adress your arguments chronologically and will also be address each section of each verse with the declaration (or knowledge as you rightly put it) and the fullfilment of it. ok, here we go...
_______________________________________
Deut. 31:16 says "...this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going."
Judg 2:11
And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
Judg 2:12
And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
Judg 2:17
And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.
_______________________________________
Deut 31:16 "...will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them."
Judg 10:6
And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him.
1 Kings 18:18
And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim.
1 Kings 19:10
And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
Jer 2:13
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
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Deut 31:17 "Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day," Doesn't that sound like very particular foreknowledge? "in that day?"
Judg 2:14
And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies.
Judg 6:13
And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
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Deut 31:17 "...I will forsake them..."
2 Chron 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.
2 Chron 24:20
And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.
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Deut 31:17 "...hide My face from them..."
Isa 8:17
And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
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Deut 31:17 "Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?'"
Num 14:42
Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies.
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Deut 31:20 "For when I bring them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and are satisfied and become prosperous, then they will turn to other gods and serve them, and spurn Me and break My covenant."
Deut 32:15-17
But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
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Deut 31:21 I know their intent which they are developing today, before I have brought them into the land which I swore."
1 Chron 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
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All of this examples are just more details that were fulfilled in the prophecy of Isaiah 5:1-7. But maybe we should move beyond this specific example and address the root issue...
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
All in all, there are too many details presented that God "somehow" knew before hand. Furthermore, it cannot be equated to the simple decision of saying "I will wear white socks tommarow," or even specifying what kind of socks and when I will put them on because...
1) that is a decision made by you, and is un-affected by any variables
2) It is a prediction/decision made only a day in advance. In the verses I presented, we are talking about years and years between the time of prediction and the time of fullfilment. There's no comparison.
Also,
Laika said...
God says He'll do some things and when the time comes, He does them. Where's the "exhaustive fore-knowlege"? You're just showing His volitional will for a few future choices of His.
Whatever happened to man's free will? You are putting God in a box by saying He simply says He will do such and such a thing, and when the time He comes, He "simply" does them. When you take into account the fact that man has the ability to make decisions on his own (and the ability to decide between right and wrong), your statement about God's lack of forekowledge is completely negated. You are saying God has limited fore-knowledge, and man has now free will becuase what decisions God does do in the future, they are not affacted by man. What I am saying is that God has exhastive fore-knowledge despite the fact that man has a free will.
I want to be open-minded about this, so imagine that I know nothing about this topic and I asked, "would you please explain to me how God can still be God, and not know the future?" How would you respond?
Because if He does not have an exhastive fore-knowledge of the future (or omnicience), He would in essence be denying His nature. Because God is infinite, and if He is infinite, He has to be infinitely just, infinitely good, infinitely merciful, and infinitely knowing. (e.g. omnicient, exhastive foreknoweldge, etc.)
_________________________________
Blessings,
the young'en
Seriously,
A young thinkerPost Edited (young_think_tank) : 5/5/2005 12:12:28 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/5/2005 5:16 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Deut. 31:16 says "...this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going."
Laika:
God knows the intent of their hearts, to go astray. That they would follow the gods of the land they were entering follows from that. That's God understanding the patterns of behavior. If I suggest that kids in the future will rebel against their parents partly by taking drugs, does that prove I have exhaustive fore-knowlege? No. I understand the patterns of behavior of some children rebelling against their parents.
It's interesting that God surely had present knowlege of the gods of Canaan, Chemosh, Baal, Ashterah, Moloch, yet only presented them as "the strange gods", a real general statement. Most of the verses presented as proof of God's exhaustive fore-knowlege are such general, mundane statements.
Deut 31:16 "...will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them."
Laika:
God knew their intent to go astray (verse 21); that would obviously break their covenant with Him.
Deut 31:17 "Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day," Doesn't that sound like very particular foreknowledge? "in that day?"
Laika:
God knew that God would be angry with them when they broke covenant with Him? How *did* He know that? How *does* God know how God will respond to events? It certainly is a mystery how He knows that.
"That day"???? How specific is that? The day they bury my dad, on THAT DAY, I will help carry his casket. That specific bit of information ("that day") is PROOF I have exhaustive fore-knowlege. "That day" is tied to "that day" they break covenant with Him.
Deut 31:17 "...I will forsake them..."
Deut 31:17 "...hide My face from them..."
Laika:
How *does* God know how He will react? a real mystery. 
Deut 31:20 "For when I bring them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and are satisfied and become prosperous, then they will turn to other gods and serve them, and spurn Me and break My covenant." because
Deut 31:21 I know their intent which they are developing today, before I have brought them into the land which I swore."
These proofs of God's exhaustive fore-knowlege are laughable. God states what He will do when Israel forsakes them based on His knowing their intent (present knowlege) to go astray. Not a titch of foreknowlege in the Deuteronomy passage.
young_think_tank:
All in all, there are too many details presented that God "somehow" knew before hand.
Laika:
Actually, I didn't see any details, just general statements of God saying how God would react to their going astray which He knew because it was the intent of their hearts (present knowlege).
young_think_tank:
I want to be open-minded about this, so imagine that I know nothing about this topic and I asked, "would you please explain to me how God can still be God, and not know the future?" How would you respond?
Because if He does not have an exhastive fore-knowledge of the future (or omnicience), He would in essence be denying His nature. Because God is infinite, and if He is infinite, He has to be infinitely just, infinitely good, infinitely merciful, and infinitely knowing. (e.g. omnicient, exhastive foreknoweldge, etc.)
Laika:
O.K. First, if God is "all powerful", can you say:
"God can __________________________ "
and fill the blank in with anything?
God can make a four-legged tripod.
God can make a square circle.
God can add 2 and 2 and get 5.
God can make a rock so big He can't lift it.
God can force someone to love Him of their own free will.
Obviously, by saying God can only do that which is logical, we are not limiting God's power in any way.
Secondly, by saying God can only know that which is knowable, we aren't limiting His knowlege.
God does have total knowlege, knowlege of everything that can be known.
Now I'll turn you over to TGB and he'll explain how God can know all future possibilities, mights, whatever.
But showing verses where God says what God is going to do in the future are declarations of volition, not passive knowlege of a future that hasn't happened yet and doesn't exist.
Jeremiah 32:35"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
One verse hostile to the exhaustive fore-knowlege thesis is enough to bring it down.
Post Edited (Laika) : 5/5/2005 5:41:46 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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young_think_tank
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Date Joined May 2005
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| Posted 5/7/2005 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika said...
O.K. First, if God is "all powerful", can you say:
"God can __________________________ "
and fill the blank in with anything?
God can make a four-legged tripod.
God can make a square circle.
God can add 2 and 2 and get 5.
God can make a rock so big He can't lift it.
God can force someone to love Him of their own free will.
OK, now we're really getting to the root issue here...
It seems to me that you are putting God in an smaller and smaller box as we progress in this discussion (or argument, as you seem to treat it).
The famous statement you bring up about God making a rock too big for him to lift is very silly to me. Were you just saying all that to test something or me? Anyways, I would answer in two ways to this argument.
1) In the sense that I am speaking of the absolute infinite power of God, then I would have to contend that God can make a rock that’s too big for him to lift, because “…nothing is impossible with God.” (Luke 1:37) So within this context and according to this verse alone, I have to hold to the statement “God is all-powerful” because I believe this statement to be true, and not limited by “logic."
2) In the second sense, God cannot make a rock to big he can’t lift. By definition, God is transcendent and supreme above all others (the biggest). So if God could make a rock (or anything, for that matter) that is too big for him to lift, there would be something bigger and greater than he, thus negating his "Godness."
Laika said...
Obviously, by saying God can only do that which is logical, we are not limiting God's power in any way.
Secondly, by saying God can only know that which is knowable, we aren't limiting His knowlege.
God does have total knowlege, knowlege of everything that can be known.
It seems this is one of the biggest areas that we clash…
You say that we are not limiting God when we say that he can only work within the logical, and can only know within the knowable, but just through this statement alone you are limiting him!
Are there not bounds on that which seems logical to us?
Are there not bounds on that which is knowable?
The capacity of man is limited, and you have put God on the same playing field as man. Why not say, God can only do that which is logical and knowable to Him?
As is seems you know the Bible quite well (probably even better than I), this topic forces me to bring up Isaiah 55:8,"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
So by saying God can only do that which is logical, we are limiting simply with this statement and are limiting his power.
By saying God can only know that which is knowable, we are limiting His knowledge.
And finally, by saying the two statements above, you are denying scripture.
I rest my case…
...and sorry about the loooong post :-)
____________________________________
I appreciate the opposition,
Young'en
P.S. One verse hostile to the limited fore-knowlege thesis is enough to bring it down...Post Edited (young_think_tank) : 5/7/2005 10:35:12 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/8/2005 1:30 PM (GMT -6) | |
young_think_tank said...
P.S. One verse hostile to the limited fore-knowlege thesis is enough to bring it down...
You actually don't understand the problem. (And didn't provide a verse)
If you say ALL Texans are nine feet tall or taller, I only have to show you ONE Texan shorter than nine feet to disprove you.
If you said only SOME Texans are nine feet tall or taller, I'd have to show you ALL Texans and NONE of them are nine feet or taller in order to disprove you. This is the problem when "For All" statements are made.
One verse showing God didn't anticipate something destroys the whole "exhaustive" fore-knowlege thesis.
But if someone believes God knows SOME of the future (mostly what He is going to do), it takes more than one verse where God says "I'm going to do this" in order to prove "exhaustive fore-knowlege". warui da neh-----
As for you not believing God uses logic, then there's no way you can be sure He's even communicating with us. Anyone can make any crazy statement about God and we cannot trust scripture and our logical parsing of it to ascertain whether they are crazy or not.
God made us in a way He can communicate with us. Throw out the reasoning He gave (and which He commands us to use over and over in scripture) and you throw out any veracity of any communication with us.
But I do understand the appeal of illogic to the determinists..... LOL
Post Edited (Laika) : 5/8/2005 1:52:31 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 5/10/2005 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | |
young_think_tank said...
The famous statement you bring up about God making a rock too big for him to lift is very silly to me. Were you just saying all that to test something or me? Anyways, I would answer in two ways to this argument.
1) In the sense that I am speaking of the absolute infinite power of God, then I would have to contend that God can make a rock that’s too big for him to lift, because “…nothing is impossible with God.” (Luke 1:37) So within this context and according to this verse alone, I have to hold to the statement “God is all-powerful” because I believe this statement to be true, and not limited by “logic."
2) In the second sense, God cannot make a rock to big he can’t lift. By definition, God is transcendent and supreme above all others (the biggest). So if God could make a rock (or anything, for that matter) that is too big for him to lift, there would be something bigger and greater than he, thus negating his "Godness."
Two things:
- Why is the question about the rock "silly?" If it challenges our understanding of God, I would say it's dead serious. Is it silly because your contradicting answers are silly, or is it silly because God would never make something too heavy for him (ignoring Jesus and the cross, of course).
- You contradicted yourself. How are there two "senses" of God's ability? The question is whether he could, if he has the power. Would you say that in one sense Jesus couldn't hold the cross, but in another sense he was just pretending that all that torture affected him?
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 5/10/2005 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Hello! Are we really, truly, honestly discussing whether or not God can create a rock so big that even he can't lift it?
While we're at it, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? For once decent attempt at tackling this crucial yet sensitive question, see http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume7/v7i3/angels-7-3.htm
El Payaso 
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/10/2005 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | |
¡Que Payaso! said...
Hello! Are we really, truly, honestly discussing whether or not God can create a rock so big that even he can't lift it?
God would not want to get his hands dirty lifting a huge rock. He would simply create a super strong dog and delegate the dirty work.
The Creator would fashion a guy that would wear a large jacket but yet a small cap.
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 5/10/2005 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Of course, an omnipotent God can not be outdone, so he creates a woman to neutralize the strong man.
.
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young_think_tank
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| Posted 5/10/2005 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid said...
* You contradicted yourself. How are there two "senses" of God's ability? The question is whether he could, if he has the power. Would you say that in one sense Jesus couldn't hold the cross, but in another sense he was just pretending that all that torture affected him?
</UL>
All i'm saying is that Yes, God has the power to do all things. NO, He cannot make somehting greater tha he. So this is what it comes down to. God's power is by no means limited to that which semas logical to us becuase his logic is so much more supreme than that of ours (I am not saying he does not use logic lol).
Also Laika, when I said one verse hostile to the limited fore-knowledge position is enough to bring it down, i don't believe you understood me either. If the Bible said all Texans are 9 feet tall or taller and you found one verse that disproves God's exhaustive fore-knowledge, then you still lose becuase the bible would be contradicting itself, proving nothing, but the fact that the bible is fallible. So, if you are in favor of limited fore-knowledge, you must prove this to be true in the entire bible.
sorry for the lack of clarity everyone...
Seriously,
A young thinker | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 5/10/2005 1:27 PM (GMT -6) | |
young_think_tank said...
Sahid said...
* You contradicted yourself. How are there two "senses" of God's ability? The question is whether he could, if he has the power. Would you say that in one sense Jesus couldn't hold the cross, but in another sense he was just pretending that all that torture affected him?
</UL> All i'm saying is that Yes, God has the power to do all things. NO, He cannot make somehting greater tha he. So this is what it comes down to. God's power is by no means limited to that which semas logical to us becuase his logic is so much more supreme than that of ours (I am not saying he does not use logic lol). Also Laika, when I said one verse hostile to the limited fore-knowledge position is enough to bring it down, i don't believe you understood me either. If the Bible said all Texans are 9 feet tall or taller and you found one verse that disproves God's exhaustive fore-knowledge, then you still lose becuase the bible would be contradicting itself, proving nothing, but the fact that the bible is fallible. So, if you are in favor of limited fore-knowledge, you must prove this to be true in the entire bible. sorry for the lack of clarity everyone...
If God can do things that are illogical, then why should we trust him? Why should we worship him? How do we know he's worthy or trustworthy? God cannot create a circular square, and if he can, I don't want to worship him anymore because I have no way of judging whether he ought to be worshipped.
Furthermore, the Bible doesn't ever say God has exhaustive foreknowledge. The Bible says he has SOME foreknowledge. If you can find a verse that says God has exhaustive foreknowledge, by all means bring it. | | Back to Top | | |
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young_think_tank
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 5/10/2005 2:17 PM (GMT -6) | | PhilTheThrill said...
If God can do things that are illogical, then why should we trust him? Why should we worship him? How do we know he's worthy or trustworthy? God cannot create a circular square, and if he can, I don't want to worship him anymore because I have no way of judging whether he ought to be worshipped.
You are saying if God does something that you don't understand, then you can't rust him anymore. Is this really what you meant?
What about Jesus walking on water? Was this very logical? Virtually every miracle (both old and new testament) display an act of God in which man is dumfounded because of his lack of understanding. Does this mean God was acting in an illogical fashion? No...
Furthermore, even if God could make a circular sqaure, and you felt like you couldn't rust him, you are failing to ackowldge his omni-benevolence. If God could make a circular cirlce, and you know that he is truly a good God, why shoul dyou mistrust him?
Do you believe God to be far more supreme than us finite humans?
Seriously,
A young thinker | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/10/2005 9:28 PM (GMT -6) | |
young_think_tank said...
Also Laika, when I said one verse hostile to the limited fore-knowledge position is enough to bring it down, i don't believe you understood me either. If the Bible said all Texans are 9 feet tall or taller and you found one verse that disproves God's exhaustive fore-knowledge, then you still lose becuase the bible would be contradicting itself, proving nothing, but the fact that the bible is fallible. So, if you are in favor of limited fore-knowledge, you must prove this to be true in the entire bible.
sorry for the lack of clarity everyone.. You are really confused and it shows.......
You completely don't understand the "for all", "for some" distinction.
To negate a "for all" proposition, all that's needed is one example that the proposition isn't true for.
To negate a "for some" proposition, you need to show that NOTHING that proposition is true for.
Do you understand that? Forget fore-knowlege and Texans, just understand that. Dig out a book on logic and look it up.
We'll wait......
I'll try another simple example.
I have a bag of marbles and say "ALL my marbles are red".
You find ONE blue marble in the bag and say, "no, I found ONE that is blue so not ALL are red". You've disproved my "for ALL" proposition.
OK?
Now, I have a bag of marbles and say "SOME of my marbles are red".
You want to disprove that. You pull out a blue marble and say "I found a blue marble". I say "that's OK, I only said SOME of my marbles are red".
You have to pull out every marble and show me that NONE of my marbles are red in order to disprove what I said "SOME of my marbles are red".
Understand?
Now you say "God knows ALL the future". I show you a few verses where He doesn't know the future. That disproves your "ALL the future".
I say "God knows SOME of the future". You show a few verses where He knows what He's going to do. You have NOT disproved me because you've only shown SOME, not ALL.
You have to show where He knows ALL the future. Every single human choice and natural event, etc.
Post Edited (Laika) : 5/10/2005 9:53:05 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/10/2005 10:04 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Now here's ONE example where the future didn't turn out as God said it would.
Ahaz and Judah not conquered by Rezin and Pekah?
Isaiah 7:
1 Now it came about in the days of Ahaz, the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but could not conquer it.
2 When it was reported to the house of David, saying, "The Arameans have camped in Ephraim," his heart and the hearts of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake with the wind.
3 Then the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go out now to meet Ahaz, you and your son Shear-jashub, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, on the highway to the fuller's field,
4 and say to him, 'Take care and be calm, have no fear and do not be fainthearted because of these two stubs of smoldering firebrands, on account of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.
5 'Because Aram, with Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, has planned evil against you, saying,
6 "Let us go up against Judah and terrorize it, and make for ourselves a breach in its walls and set up the son of Tabeel as king in the midst of it,"
7 thus says the Lord GOD: "It shall not stand nor shall it come to pass. <---- because God knows ALL the future?
But according to 2 Chronicles 28, Syria and Pekah did conquer Judah:
1 Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and he did not do right in the sight of the LORD as David his father had done.
2 But he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel; he also made molten images for the Baals.
3 Moreover, he burned incense in the valley of Ben-hinnom and burned his sons in fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out before the sons of Israel.
4 He sacrificed and burned incense on the high places, on the hills and under every green tree.
5 Wherefore, the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Aram; and they defeated him and carried away from him a great number of captives and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who inflicted him with heavy casualties.
6 For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah 120,000 in one day, all valiant men, because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers.
Ooops! It did "stand" and did "come to pass"
This ONE example alone disproves the "exhaustive fore-knowlege" of God.
Maybe, just maybe, God is working dynamically in the world. Not the static "it" of the greco-calvinists.
Post Edited (Laika) : 5/10/2005 10:07:38 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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