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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2003 3:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
But I would also say that I agree with the rest of what you say
Thanks, 'cause that's me main point. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2003 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I felt that I should pay respects to something that Tom said:
quote:
Originally posted by TGB
My experience is that this view is held to because it provides a basis upon which one can smuggle in other beliefs about foreknowledge, prophecy, predestination, etc.
Tom 
I doubly agree. Many people do that, and its not something that I endorse. Further, I don't embrace things like prophesy from such a nominalistic framework as either of two typical views: that God was trapped in time in the past when he "fore-knew" (a nominalistic view of foreknowledge, used by the neo-classical-theists), or that God is removed from time, and insolated. Both are wrong.
But, since what I do say is ignored, and since there is an allergic reaction causing you, Tom, and you, Hal, to get stuck on things that don't matter to me, I'll just close.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2003 3:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
Yes, I think we should just agree to disagree.
OK.
I like you. I appreciate you. And its been nice. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2003 3:51 AM (GMT -6) | | eldspathicquote:
Originally posted by TGB
PoW: I don't say that God is not in time. I pray to God "who fillest all things and art in all things." That includes time. But God is also bigger than time, as God created it.
Tom: I think honorman's point was that you seem to fall into that class which argues God is BOTH temporal and timeless; that God is in time, but God is not ONLY in time. He's also "above" time. THe only thing I can guess "above time" might means is "timeless." And honorman is wondering how, if you claim that divine begetting and proceeding are neither observable by us nor accessible to human reason, you are able to say definitively that these are not measurable by time? Because God created time? How do you know that? Because time is relative to finite observers in the physical unverse? Because time and space are inseparable for us (implying that in the absence of a spatial universe time doesn't exist and that God sans creation is timeless)? I concede this is possible. But we might be wrong on it. I don't think divine perfections, or divine begetting and proceeding, MUST be thought of as unmeasured by time. I wouldn't argue FROM these TO timelessness. If the arguments from physics and logic win the day and it turns out that God is timeless sans creation, fine. And if it turns out that time in some sense of sequence exists sans creation and that God is therefore temporally everlasting, fine. Point is...who cares?
Tom
1. you seem to fall into that class which argues God is BOTH temporal and timeless; that God is in time, but God is not ONLY in time. He's also "above" time. THe only thing I can guess "above time" might means is "timeless."
(NOT SHOUTING!)
YOUR AREN'T GOING TO WANT TO UNDERSTAND. YOU PIGEON HOLED, AND GOT IT WRONG. SO, THAT LEADS INEVITABLY TO THE SECOND (AND SHOULD, SINCE YOU GOT IT WRONG.)
2. I don't think divine perfections, or divine begetting and proceeding, MUST be thought of as unmeasured by time. I wouldn't argue FROM these TO timelessness.
I DON'T ARGUE FROM THOSE TWO TO "TIMELESSNESS EITHER. GOD IS UNNAMABLE, AND WE ONLY HAVE THE NAME THAT HE GAVE US. THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A NAME. THAT IS HOW 'OTHER' GOD IS. TO CALL GOD "TIMELESS" IS TO HOPELESSLY PUT GOD IN A BOX, AND SPAWN SUCH REDICULOUS DEBATES!
3. Point is...who cares?
THAT'S A CHOICE.
4. Other.
NO WORDS DESCRIBE. BUT SOME VERY CLOSE TO GOD USE WORDS LIKE STILLNESS. AND THEY COMBINE IDEAS LIKE STILL AND ACTIVE, SURRENDERING TO ANTINOMIES, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GENERATING IDEAS AND ARGUEMENTS, BUT FEEL TRAPPED INTO DOING THE IMPOSSIBLE BY DESCRIBING THE UNDESCRIBABLE.
AND IN CHRIST, BY HIS SPIRIT, WE BECOME, BY COOPERATION OF OUR WILL -- *HOW ARE WE ALL DOING IN THIS, PERSONALLY? * -- IN THAT STILL-DYNAMISM!
THAT MATTERS.
THAT IS WORTH CARING ABOUT.
ASIDE FROM ALL THE REDICULOUS DISTRACTIONS OF DETOURING DEBATE, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS!
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/17/2003 4:18 AM (GMT -6) | | PoW: TO CALL GOD "TIMELESS" IS TO HOPELESSLY PUT GOD IN A BOX...
Tom: And to say "God is not measured by time" is not?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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