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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/13/2005 9:35 AM (GMT -6)

Honest questions:

What does it mean to God be the absolute central referent of our lives? Restated, what does it mean to say that God is our CHIEF, CENTRAL reason for our existence? Does it mean that all of our affections should be for God...and all else secondary?

Isn't this why we DO worship anyway?

I think about what Jesus kept saying about "anyone loving father and mother more than me" and "letting the dead bury the dead" and "who are my mother and brothers?" What does all that mean?

Have we tried so hard to get away from dysfunctional "worm theology" (where we are nothing more than the cosmic crap of existence) that we have ended up on the other side of the pendulum???

I want to get very serious with this, people.

Marking the potential return of the original "Theistic Bootlicker",

"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/13/2005 9:55 AM (GMT -6)

Let's make this real.

Massacre horror at Kenyan school
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4678211.stm

Hundreds of armed men surrounded a primary school and nearby houses in northern Kenya before opening fire killing at least 56, a local MP says.

One mother told of how the gunmen killed her two children and beheaded her husband while she watched.

----------------

Children die in Baghdad car bomb
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4678207.stm
At least 26 Iraqis, almost all of them children, have been killed by a suicide car bombing in south-eastern Baghdad.

-----------------

Actually, just check the Front Page of BBCNEWS
www.bbcnews.com

------------------

Can we read things like this, honestly WRESTLE with the idea of God's providence in such situations, and still worship God with such singlemindedness that God is indeed the sovereign, all-wise deity who ALONE is worthy of all worship?? It really doesn't matter if you are a Calvinist or open theist. Not really. The problem is still there. In Calvinism, you have God ordaining all the suffering for all-good, albeit mysterious purposes. In open theism, you have God either possibly using such situations for God's mysterious purposes as well...OR you have God trying God's flat-out best, but just not able to save these people. All of these answers, IMO, are INADEQUATE to salve the pain by themselves.

So....

Can we affirm God's absolute centrality and worth in the face of so much distraction created by our suffering? Can we find the TOTALITY of our joy and satisfaction in God, in spite of such bull@#$*? If we CAN'T, what does that say about us supposely having God being the CENTER and MEANING for our lives?

I'm just thinking all this out...

PS: I can't even say words to pray for those things. All I can do is inwardly groan, tear up, and know that the Spirit knows my heart's yearning for healing to come. God help us.

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 7/13/2005 2:58 PM (GMT -6)

I think you sense the answer in your statement, 'Isn't this why we DO worship anyway?" .

Our usual notion of worship as a seperate "entity" ties us up into a system that doesn't begin to reflect God's desire.

Think worship=obedience and the doors starts to swing open.

peace, don

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Benjamin Franklin

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/14/2005 1:20 AM (GMT -6)

MBD:
Our usual notion of worship as a seperate "entity" ties us up into a system that doesn't begin to reflect God's desire.

Think worship=obedience and the doors starts to swing open.

When I think of worship essentially, I think of any activity that is done fully with God as the chief intended audience and the central intended focus in an honorific way. Brother Lawrence is a great example of someone who wanted to infuse as much of life as possible with worship. This is fundamentally how worship is a lifestyle, not just something we "do". But when we "do" worship, these things are made much more explicit as we sing songs or whatever TO God about God.

At any rate, my point is that "worship" itself seems to PRESUPPOSE that the object in question being worshipped is a central figure in the life of the worshipper. Something to which a high level of veneration and dedication is given.

might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 7/14/2005 6:35 AM (GMT -6)

You say, "I think of any activity that is done fully with God as the chief intended audience and the central intended focus in an honorific way" .

Why think that? The very act of kindness towards a stranger in the mist of the chaos of our day is worship=obedience. Why think it is somehow not up to par if God is not specifically "in focus" ?

peace, don

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Benjamin Franklin

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/14/2005 9:02 AM (GMT -6)

MBD:
Why think that? The very act of kindness towards a stranger in the mist of the chaos of our day is worship=obedience. Why think it is somehow not up to par if God is not specifically "in focus" ?

No one is saying that obedience to God isn't good. Of course, obedience to God is essential in a worshipful heart. However, obedience to God's commands can actually be done without God being chiefly in mind. It's possible to be obedient to God solely because one wants to salve their own conscience. Or because of their fear of going to hell. In my opinion, these would not be the motivations of a worshipful heart. Worship is about bringing glory, reverence and honor to God. Having a worshipful heart is to have a motivation of bringing God all the glory, reverence, and honor in your life because of one's response and recognition of God's self-revelation...and realization of God's worthiness.

I suppose one could try to say that one could worship God unintentionally by being obedient to God's commands. But that would be interesting, especially since one of God's (and Jesus's) commands is that God be worshipped!

JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 7/14/2005 9:41 AM (GMT -6)

Romans 12:1 So here's what I want you to do, God helping you: Take your everyday, ordinary life--your sleeping, eating, going-to-work, and walking-around life--and place it before God as an offering. Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for him. 2Don't become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking. Instead, fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the inside out. Readily recognize what he wants from you, and quickly respond to it. Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings the best out of you, develops well-formed maturity in you. (The Message)

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. NKJV

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

JohnE

http://www.revivaltheology.net

Dragon Chaser
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70

Posted 7/17/2005 1:09 AM (GMT -6)

Meph said, Can we read things like this, honestly WRESTLE with the idea of God's providence in such situations, and still worship God with such singlemindedness that God is indeed the sovereign, all-wise deity who ALONE is worthy of all worship??

The book of Job is a good example why God is worthy of our praise even in the worst predicaments.

I think this is where the misconception lies. This earth is not where God resides for he cannot be where there is evil. That is why he sent his only begotten son to save us from it, who was viciously slaughtered. This earth is an ungodly place and it’s only going to get worse until the son returns again to cleans the world of all evil. It’s mentioned countless times in the New Testament that the earth is Satan’s realm. Do you have the courage to be a “First Fruit,” to be picked to be an example of the kingdom to come?

John R. Heys

Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690

Posted 7/17/2005 1:31 AM (GMT -6)

MephEternal said...
What does it mean to God be the absolute central referent of our lives? Restated, what does it mean to say that God is our CHIEF, CENTRAL reason for our existence? Does it mean that all of our affections should be for God...and all else secondary?

The thing I came to is the question: what is "sin" ultimately? From what I gather, it's a detachment from the source. If we already fully knew God, we wouldn't do those horrific things. I'd say with God being the central referent in our lives, it's deciding to be connected to the source again... from which all true goodness originates and flows (as opposed to the "false/pseudo" goodness that people search for apart from God) That's also what makes God the central reason for our existence. Whether we realize it now or not, we need the source.

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 7/19/2005 4:11 AM (GMT -6)

Often times the only way for me to worship God and to have him be the center of my life is through pictures. I get pictures in my mind and through these images I am able to worship even when my natural senses are not in alignment. I fix my sight on the truth of who God is (LOVE) and I observe the truth in the situation. I can worship God, and allow God to be the center of my existence, when I set my sights on things above. Worshipping God is the source of my strength when I feel that I cannot go another step. It is an act of obedience to not conform to the pattern of this world.

When I look at horrific situations that have been inflicted upon people through the evil actions of those who have perpetrated the suffering (such as in the examples that Mephi laid out) I see the enemy at war against God's beloved creation. However, when I look at the goodness in the world (people coming together to help in the Tsunami tragedy, people raising money to aid those in need, people working together to help create a better world) I see an act of kindness and the bible is very clear in stating that God is kind therefore I see God in these actions.

We can worship God with all of our hearts because whatever is good, noble, truthful, kind, loving... is a blessing for the soul that comes from God.

The truth is that God allows evil on a temporary basis due to freewill but God does NOT orchestrate the evil. Whatever is evil, cruel, decieving, hateful is from the enemy of our soul.

In the midst of natural catastrophe from hurricanes, tornados, nature.... the way in which I worship God is in looking at the whole of his creation. I worship God because I trust that he will work for the best in each situation that he is invited into and I know that this world is just a temporary stopping ground. When a situation looks grim, despairing, horrific... I then have to resort to looking at the big picture of eternity and not just the tempority of this world. I praise God by holding to the truth in the bible instead of conforming to the lies or distractions of what my senses take in. I cannot rely on my own understanding therefore must walk by faith when I do not understand.

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