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 |  JEE Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2004 Total Posts : 1466 | Posted 7/28/2005 2:31 PM (GMT -6) |   |
might-be-don said... JEE, You said,"In my view, unwillful ignorance of the Gospel, being unblameworthy, condemns NO ONE to Hell. "
Sincerely, what does being unwillfully ignorant of the Gospel look like ?
peace, don
MBD,
The reason I distinguished unwillful ignorance as opposed to willful ignorance, is that willful ignorance, being a CHOICE, definitely IS blameworthy.
A newborn infant, for instance, though ignorant of many things, is so of necessity, not voluntarily, and is therefore incapable of either blame or praise.
hth,
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://www.revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 7/28/2005 2:43:17 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 8/22/2005 11:04 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Starkman said... Second, there is no need for temptation for faith or free will to function. Thus a post-mortem experience of coming to grips with who God is, that He is the only source of life and love that can ultimately make sense of everything and that explains why we are created the way we are (to enjoy God) is not out of the question logically or philosphically. That God uses things in this life that allow us to taste of Him does not mean God could not use things to taste of Him in a post-mortem experience.
"Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him." James 1:12 (NRSV)
The "crown of life" is what universalism proclaims to be given to all, including reprobated sentient beings, in some kind of post-mortem fantasy. I argue universalism portrays a make believe world absent of reality. There is no other biblical realm for salvation to take place outside of this world. Nor is the Christ being repeatedly incarnated traveling to other worlds dying for mankind over and over again, this is it baby, come back to earth, get real.
"Blessed is the man who stands in his temptation; for there is no man whom God does not try. He tries the rich, to see if they will open their hands to the poor. He tries the poor, to see if they will receive affliction and not murmur. If, therefore, the rich stand in his temptation, and give alms to the poor, he shall enjoy his riches in this world, and his horn shall be exalted in the world to come, and the holy blessed God shall deliver him from the punishment of hell.
There may be an allusion here to the contests in the Grecian games. He is crowned who conquers; and none else." - Adam Clarke
Peace out,
Mark
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 8/22/2005 2:15:50 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 8/22/2005 3:50 PM (GMT -6) |   |
sparknheart said...
Starkman said... Second, there is no need for temptation for faith or free will to function. Thus a post-mortem experience of coming to grips with who God is, that He is the only source of life and love that can ultimately make sense of everything and that explains why we are created the way we are (to enjoy God) is not out of the question logically or philosphically. That God uses things in this life that allow us to taste of Him does not mean God could not use things to taste of Him in a post-mortem experience.
"Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him." James 1:12 (NRSV)
The "crown of life" is what universalism proclaims to be given to all, including reprobated sentient beings, in some kind of post-mortem fantasy. I argue universalism portrays a make believe world absent of reality. There is no other biblical realm for salvation to take place outside of this world. Nor is the Christ being repeatedly incarnated traveling to other worlds dying for mankind over and over again, this is it baby, come back to earth, get real.
"Blessed is the man who stands in his temptation; for there is no man whom God does not try. He tries the rich, to see if they will open their hands to the poor. He tries the poor, to see if they will receive affliction and not murmur. If, therefore, the rich stand in his temptation, and give alms to the poor, he shall enjoy his riches in this world, and his horn shall be exalted in the world to come, and the holy blessed God shall deliver him from the punishment of hell.
There may be an allusion here to the contests in the Grecian games. He is crowned who conquers; and none else." - Adam Clarke
Peace out,
Mark
Spark,
I think you might have missed the point of my opening statement, the one you quoted. The opening line said, "Second, there is no need for temptation for faith or free will to function." I didn't say that God could not, and does not, test our faith. I was only stating that testing is not required in order for faith to function. This leads to the conclusion of what I wrote immediately after that opening line:
"Thus a post-mortem experience of coming to grips with who God is, that He is the only source of life and love that can ultimately make sense of everything and that explains why we are created the way we are (to enjoy God) is not out of the question logically or philosphically. Here again, I didn't say anything about biblical requirements, only about the logical or philosophical possibilities of universalism.
Hope that clarifies things a bit.
Starkman My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 8/23/2005 1:45 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Starkman said...
I was only stating that testing is not required in order for faith to function. Hey Stark,
Are you playing the sola fide card in an attempt to justify a post-mortem salvation?
Let’s take a little look at the salvation package:
By believing in Jesus -
John 3:16 (NRSV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
By repentance -
Acts 2:38 (NRSV)
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
By baptism-
John 3:5 (NRSV)
Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
By works of the Holy Spirit -
2 Cor. 3:4-6 (NRSV)
Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. [5] Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, [6] who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
By declaring by mouth -
Romans 10:5-11 (NRSV)
Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that "the person who does these things will live by them." [6] But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) [7] "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). [8] But what does it say?
"The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); [9] because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. [11] The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
By knowledge -
1 Tim. 2:4 (NRSV)
who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
By works -
James 2:24 (NRSV)
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
By grace -
Acts 15:11 (NRSV)
On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
By the blood of Jesus -
Romans 5:9 (NRSV)
Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.
By righteousness -
2 Peter 1:1 (NRSV)
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
By the cross -
Ephes. 2:15-18 (NRSV)
He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, [16] and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. [17] So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; [18] for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Maybe you will so kindly explain how universalism can gloss over all the passages of salvation that comes from an experiential world God has so clearly placed us in, or to use your terminology “thrust us into a sphere of existence”. Please give some biblical clue of any other created world where salvation can take place outside of this one. Also if you would please, show me where it says to repent and then quickly shoot yourself in the head before you can be tempted to sin again. If Paul had only known about universalism he could have saved himself the vain struggle to finish the race. He could have simply repented and then quickly jumped off a high cliff.
So you say temptation is unnecessary for faith. Hmmm…. maybe you should sit down with God, once you enter through the pearly gates of heaven, and teach Him that it was unnecessary to tempt Adam and Eve with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And while you’re at it, maybe you can correct him about testing Abraham with the life of his son Isaac. Tracing the history of man we find a world filled with temptaion, the list goes on and on and on… so, be sure to take your vitamins as you‘ll need the energy.
In the meantime I’ll pass on the Kool-Aid,
Mark
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 8/23/2005 3:37:34 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 8/23/2005 4:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Spark,
Um...I never said I believe in universalism! All I said...again, was that testing is not required for faith to function (I never said that temptation is unecessary for faith; that is to ambiguous to claim). Please let the dust settle a bit so you can see what's really being said. Further, I was clear to say that I was talking about Meph's logic and philosophy, and NOT the biblical perspective, with regard to Meph's ideas about universalism.
Next...
It could be argued well that not one verse you sited states specifically or implicitely that salvation can ONLY happen on earth. It is very possible that the appeal to salvation in these verses is in view of the fact that there is a period of torment and punishment for those who reject salvation while alive. Nothing you've sited proves otherwise. Mind you, I'm NOT advocating this position. I am only trying to say that your texts are more pre-text and not too much proof-text.
Finally...
You must believe, then, that no baby, retarded or mentally handicapped person (those of these folk who have never heard the gospel) will ever make it into heaven. I mean, you can't have it both ways. So, off to hell with all those people. They could never read or hear those verses you sited above. Too bad for them, eh.
I will go on record to say that I do not believe we can so easily toss off to hell all the millions upon millions upon billions of people who have never heard the gospel, all in the name of "Well, Romans 1 makes is clear that everyone knows. Everyone can easily see and understand that there's just one God, that He made everything, that everyone's a sinner..." etc., etc. Further, I do not toss off all the babies and children, retarded and mentally handicapped people off to hell either. I haven't solved the issue of their free will coming into play, but I'm certain that it isn't so simple as, "Well, just read Romans 1. Too bad for all those people. Off now, to hell with you. Burn away forever."
No, it's not quite that simple as I see it.
Starkman My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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