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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/23/2005 7:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Jeff,
jefscott said...
You are assuming that OV and an effectual call are mutually exclusive.
Yes, I am...
jefscott said...
The LFW thesis only posits that there is freedom in some cases - not any and all cases. When you look at it that way, how do the passages you reference cause a problem?
Well, the objection would seem to still be valid even if just a few are not to repent, for sure. The reason that human choices must be free is that (so we do hear) a decision that is not free cannot bring accountability. And "love must be free to be really love." Yet we see a prediction of some measure of repentance, as well, in Revelation:
Revelation 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
They will have no choice?
Revelation 13:8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast.
They will have no choice? This will condemn them to hell...
In Christ,
Lee
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/23/2005 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee: Revelation 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
They will have no choice?
Jeff: Choice to do what?
Lee: Revelation 13:8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast.
They will have no choice? This will condemn them to hell...
Jeff: Don't you believe that unbelievers have no eternal life UNLESS they repent and believe? What, specifically, are you saying?
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/24/2005 6:55 PM (GMT -6) | |
Hello, Lee. Nice to converse with you again, BTW!
Various folks said...
Revelation 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Lee: They will have no choice?
Jeff: Choice to do what?
No choice but to give glory to God then? It will not be possible for them to do otherwise?
Jeff: Right. It will be compatibilistic only, in my view. But is that hard to believe? Those who have no humble-hearted fear of God as the righteous judge still understand superior power when it is manifested unequivocally in judgement, eh?
various folks said...
Revelation 13:8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast.
Lee: They will have no choice? This will condemn them to hell...
Jeff: Don't you believe that unbelievers have no eternal life UNLESS they repent and believe?
Certainly, and these will not repent and believe, for those who worship the beast will be condemned (Rev. 14:9-11).
Jeff: Then what, specifically, were you asking about the OV and Rev. 13:8?
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/24/2005 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
Glad to talk with you as well!
jefscott said...
Revelation 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Lee: No choice but to give glory to God then? It will not be possible for them to do otherwise?
Jeff: Right. It will be compatibilistic only, in my view. But is that hard to believe? Those who have no humble-hearted fear of God as the righteous judge still understand superior power when it is manifested unequivocally in judgement, eh?
Well, we have another similar situation depicted where the people do have a measure of repentance, though:
Revelation 11:13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
So this is not simply guessing what is probable, I would say.
various folks said...
Lee: ... and these will not repent and believe, for those who worship the beast will be condemned (Rev. 14:9-11).
Jeff: Then what, specifically, were you asking about the OV and Rev. 13:8?
Well, if they certainly will worship the beast, and then be certainly condemned, wouldn't OV folks object that they had no real choice in the matter?
Blessings,
Lee
P.S. I'm going out of town, will be back on Tuesday, have a good weekend! And a good week-beginning...
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/24/2005 8:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee: Revelation 11:13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
So this is not simply guessing what is probable, I would say.
Jeff: I absolutely agree.
Lee: Well, if they certainly will worship the beast, and then be certainly condemned, wouldn't OV folks object that they had no real choice in the matter?
Jeff: Perhaps. But if so, that has more to do with their arminian views than the OV, per se. There are OV folks that are not arminian, and arminian folks that are not OV. Biblical OV requires LFW, in my opinion, but it does not require that justification is conditioned by any act of LFW.
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