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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/4/2003 11:20 PM (GMT -6) |   | All underlines mine.
Alan:
quote:
A good Biblical case to look at here is that of Pharoah in the opening chapters of Genesis. A couple times it says that "Pharoah hardened his heart", and then it abruptly shifts and says several more times that "God hardened Pharoah's heart". Now it seems to me that Pharoah did the initial soldifying of his own character in opposition to Moses. At some point, God stepped in, locked Pharoah's heart (perhaps only temporarily) in the state that he had already chosen, and then used Pharoah for his sovereign purposes.
and…
Tigress:
quote:
I only read most of your first post on this thread, Meph, [but this totally reminds me of how God used Pharoah's hardened heart to keep heaping plagues on the Egyptians before they'd let the Israelites go.
and…
Timlings:
quote:
Take Pharoah for example. I think God would have been pretty pleased to have Pharoah release his people first time round. Then Pharoah would have become a 'vessel unto honour'. But instead, God had to solidfy Pharoah's character in order to get his purposes accomplished anyway.
Meph:
Since some people want to reference the Pharaoh story, let’s talk about it. Frankly, I don’t like the way this story gets used in this way where it’s interpreted that Pharaoh’s the MAIN CULPRIT for his hardened state that God just “happens” to use. Like God is just finding a good use for a poor old self-solidified person to promote the most love-maximizing world possible. So, we are gonna pick this apart. Line by line and thangs. Ready? Cool…
First, let’s place all the instances of “heart hardening” here in the Pharaoh story, ok?
Ex. 7:1-5
The LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.”
Ex. 7:13
Still Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Ex. 7:14
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.
Ex. 7:22
But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts; so Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the LORD had said.
Ex. 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
Ex. 8:19
And the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God!” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
Ex. 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and would not let the people go.
Ex. 9:7
Pharaoh inquired and found that not one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the people go.
Ex. 9:12
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Ex. 9:34-35
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned once more and hardened his heart, he and his officials. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.
Ex. 10:1-2
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the LORD.”
Ex. 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Ex. 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was unwilling to let them go.
Ex. 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.
Ex. 14:1-9
Then the LORD said to Moses: Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall camp opposite it, by the sea. 3 Pharaoh will say of the Israelites, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has closed in on them.’ I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, the minds of Pharaoh and his officials were changed toward the people, and they said, “What have we done, letting Israel leave our service?” So he had his chariot made ready, and took his army with him; he took six hundred picked chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt with officers over all of them. The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out boldly. The Egyptians pursued them, all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, his chariot drivers and his army; they overtook them camped by the sea, by Pi-hahiroth, in front of Baal-zephon.
Ex. 14:15-18
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Why do you cry out to me? Tell the Israelites to go forward. But you lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, that the Israelites may go into the sea on dry ground. Then I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and so I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army, his chariots, and his chariot drivers. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gained glory for myself over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his chariot drivers.”
I figured this would be the easiest way to do what I’m about to do. First things first. Let’s notice something. Do you notice all those times where it says “…just as the Lord had said.”? Y’all know WHEN that was and WHAT was said? Right here…
Ex. 4:21
And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
This is EXTREMELY important to note! First of all, God told Moses this BEFORE Moses even went back to Egypt! (This is actually right before God tries to KILL Moses on the way, where Zipporah has to do the bloody circumcision.) Before Moses even sees Pharoah, God lets him know THAT Pharaoh won’t listen and WHY: God’s gonna harden him. And surprise, surprise. What happens in Ex. 5?
Ex. 5:1-2
Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Let my people go, so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.’” 2 But Pharaoh said, “Who is the LORD, that I should heed him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and I will not let Israel go.”
and WHY is this going on? God gives a hint about the set-up…
Ex. 6:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh: Indeed, by a mighty hand he will let them go; by a mighty hand he will drive them out of his land.”
Second, this “hardening” doesn’t seem to be a REACTION to Pharaoh’s self-hardening as much as something GOD is going to do. What did the Lord say was going to happen? That Pharaoh would harden himself?? NOPE. The Lord said that HE would harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he wouldn’t let the people go. GOD did it. But, in the text, specifically in Ex. 8:15 and 8:32, when the “hardening” is mentioned with the “…just as the Lord said” ending, it says that Pharoah hardened himself. Hmmm… But didn’t the Lord say that HE was going to harden Pharaoh? Yep. It would seem to me that the best harmonization of this text would be to say that Pharoah’s self-hardening was in the context of God’s hardening. [Digression: Please note that out of ALL the “hardening” texts, Pharaoh is only said to harden himself twice.]
What this is to say is that it just doesn’t seem to be the case here that God took someone who was ALREADY solidified in their stance and used them towards their own ends. It doesn’t seem to be the case that God was REACTING to Pharaoh’s self-hardening. It seems that God intended to use the Pharoah to get the glory for himself by liberating his enslaved people…that he had prophesied to Abram about a LONG TIME ago!
Gen. 15:12-16
As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years; but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
Whoa. God had this straw man set up for quite a while, now didn’t He? Please keep THIS in the context. God said all this was going to happen a LONG time ago. Nice little orchestration, yes?
Let’s bring up something interesting now. Y’all remember that God BEGAN the hardening in the first place, right? Ok. Look at what God says here…
Ex. 7:14-18
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go. Go to Pharaoh in the morning, as he is going out to the water; stand by at the river bank to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was turned into a snake. Say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, sent me to you to say, “Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the wilderness.” But until now you have not listened.’ Thus says the LORD, “By this you shall know that I am the LORD.” See, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water that is in the Nile, and it shall be turned to blood. The fish in the river shall die, the river itself shall stink, and the Egyptians shall be unable to drink water from the Nile.’”
Can you believe this??? Not only does God SPECIFICALLY TELL Moses that He’s going to harden Pharaoh’s heart,but then God acts like it’s PHARAOH’S fault! Look at the embolded section. How could Pharaoh listen if God had hardened his heart BEFOREHAND???
But let’s keep going. Ok. It’s after the final plague. Egypt is screwed up. Pharoah has acted WAY beyond reason, even to his staff.
Ex. 10:7
Pharaoh’s officials said to him, “How long shall this fellow be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the LORD their God; do you not yet understand that Egypt is ruined?”
But after the last plague, it’s CLEAR that Pharaoh wants the Israelites gone, just like all the OTHER Egyptians did a while back…
Ex. 12:29-35
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his officials and all the Egyptians; and there was a loud cry in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead. Then he summoned Moses and Aaron in the night, and said, “Rise up, go away from my people, both you and the Israelites! Go, worship the LORD, as you said. Take your flocks and your herds, as you said, and be gone. And bring a blessing on me too!” (Note: Pharaoh is so fed up he’s asking for a BLESSING??)
The Egyptians urged the people to hasten their departure from the land, for they said, “We shall all be dead.” So the people took their dough before it was leavened, with their kneading bowls wrapped up in their cloaks on their shoulders. The Israelites had done as Moses told them; they had asked the Egyptians for jewelry of silver and gold, and for clothing, and the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. And so they plundered the Egyptians.
All’s well that ends well, right? Wrong. God ain’t through. God HARDENS the DEFEATED, DEFLATED Pharaoh!
Ex. 14:1-9
Then the LORD said to Moses: Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall camp opposite it, by the sea. Pharaoh will say of the Israelites, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has closed in on them.’ I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, the minds of Pharaoh and his officials were changed toward the people, and they said, “What have we done, letting Israel leave our service?” So he had his chariot made ready, and took his army with him; he took six hundred picked chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt with officers over all of them. The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out boldly. The Egyptians pursued them, all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, his chariot drivers and his army; they overtook them camped by the sea, by Pi-hahiroth, in front of Baal-zephon.
Ok. One minute, Pharaoh is defeated, wishing nothing more than to NOT see an Israelite again…but then all of a sudden, he wants to chase after them again…even AFTER all the plagues he’s witnessed?? Hmm…could God’s HARDENING have anything to do with it.
HECK, YEAH!
It’s apparent that God did NOT take a man solidified in his avarice and just apply a little “squeezing” pressure to make him do God’s bidding. Nope. God made Pharoah do dang near a friggin 180! Against ALL odds and ALL reason, Pharoah rushes in with his MORE SENSIBLE men to death in the waters. Is everyone seeing this??
It should be clear as DAY, people, that this is not some simple case of a person solidified in their behavior that God just tries to make the best of. This is a case of INTENTIONAL COERCION in the most profound sense. God is up here “hardening” Pharaoh like homeboy had some kind of light switch! This was a set-up from the JUMP. God planed this HUNDREDS of years before it happened. Then TOLD Moses that HE was going to harden Pharoah to MAKE it happen. Then after hardening Pharoah to make SURE the plagues would happen, God hardens a defeated, deflated king to die a foolish death against an OBVIOUSLY more powerful adversary. In short…
Pharaoh did NOT solidify his character against Moses first.
This is NOT merely a simple case of God using a “hardened heart”, in an after-the-fact sense.
And no, God would NOT have been pleased to have Pharaoh release his people on the first try! (cause if that’s really what he wanted, he wouldn’t have hardened Pharaoh the FIRST time.)
This is just trying to get some of the record straight.
Tired,
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 11/5/2003 4:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
I don't know if I'll be much help, but I'll jump in here. OK the first instance that you quote says that God will harden Pharoah's heart and that God will multiply His signs and wonders. Cool, but that doesn't really tell us anything about the condition of Pharoah's heart when God decided to take this action.
But simply put I'd be willing to say that Pharoah was not a very tender hearted guy in the first place, and God did not have to coerce his hardened disposition toward the Israelites. We aren't really given much info on who Pharoah was. But because of what we do know of who Jehovah is as he is revealed in Christ, then I think that we can have confidence that God had a good reason for using Pharoah the way that he did.
I also think that most Arminians like myself have no problem holding to some form of God using evil for some greater good. Like Lewis said, God uses pain as a MEGAPHONE to rouse a deaf world. But there is a clear distinction between that position and the Calvinian one. A Calvinist, to be consistent, says that everything that happens happens exactly according to God's will, because God's will is the ultimate determining factor for every event. So why is there evil? God willed it. Why are there some who are eternally damned? God willed it.
So here's my question for you Meph. How do you reconcile God actions that you seem to believe cause so much trouble for any defense of God's goodness? I know that you believe that God is love, and therefore cannot act unloving, we've both argued for this elsewhere.
So if you believe that God is love you cannot believe that these actions are unloving. You've challenged everyone else's theodicy-- WHAT IS YOURS?
Really wondering,
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 11/5/2003 6:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Ultimately, pharoah's overall attitude towards God was one of rebellion. This is independent of the individual hardening's and relentings. There is good reason to withold judgement to the effect that Pharoah's attitude comes not from his own will and past but from God.
Why would I say this?
here's the evidence.
ex 9
27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. 28 Pray to the LORD , for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer."
29 Moses replied, "When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in prayer to the LORD . The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is the LORD's. 30 But I know that you and your officials still do not fear the LORD God."
In other words, the hardening ultimately had nothing to do with whether Pharoah was for the Lord or not. It had to do with God determining that pharoah would act in specific ways except that we libertarians could claim that God would God hardened in consistency with the way pharoah's character developed in a libertarian free way.
The hardening wore off. The determination of pharoah's bullheadedness regarding the people of israel wore off. But what was left was not God's doing but pharoah's. He still did not truly respect and fear the Lord.
I prefer to think that Pharoah did not have much libertarian freedom at any point in the narrative. It is well within a consistent approach to libertarian freedom to say that the libertarian moment was satisfied in the life of pharoah before this episode ever happened. Pharoah could have lived a life positively responding to the grace of God that was available to him. But since he didn't, he would play the clown of Egypt representing that oppressive nation in the punishments it would recieve for her opressions.
So in Pharoah's life, we could see an example of poverbs 16:9. "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."
Pharoah is the one who ultimately determined that his general attitude was against the lord and God determined how that attitude would work itself out.
There is one reason however not to view this as an episode of unmitigated determination (not to be viewed as unmitigated determinism which I deny) after the fact of Pharoah's self determination.
The hardening was not permenent or determinative in at least one instance. From exodus 10:1-2
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the LORD.”
And did those officials do?
7 Pharaoh's officials said to him, "How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the LORD their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?"
So clearly, here we have a counterexample to the notion that the hardening was determinative.
I don't need this observation for my view at all, but nevertheless, it makes yet a bigger problem for the purely deterministic take on hardening.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/5/2003 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Ross:
quote:
I don't know if I'll be much help, but I'll jump in here. OK the first instance that you quote says that God will harden Pharoah's heart and that God will multiply His signs and wonders. Cool, but that doesn't really tell us anything about the condition of Pharoah's heart when God decided to take this action.
But simply put I'd be willing to say that Pharoah was not a very tender hearted guy in the first place, and God did not have to coerce his hardened disposition toward the Israelites. We aren't really given much info on who Pharoah was.
Even taking the fact that Pharaoh was a bad guy in the first place, two things are clear:
1) It was foretold WAAAAAY before Pharaoh even existed that these things would take place.
2) No matter HOW bad Pharaoh was, it obviously wasn’t bad ENOUGH because God decided to HARDEN Pharaoh’s heart, solidifying (?) it against hearing Moses.
And don’t forget that last episode either. The 180 degree turn by Pharaoh…AFTER God’s hardening.
The problems are still there, Ross.
*************************
Ross:
quote:
But because of what we do know of who Jehovah is as he is revealed in Christ, then I think that we can have confidence that God had a good reason for using Pharoah the way that he did.
I also think that most Arminians like myself have no problem holding to some form of God using evil for some greater good. Like Lewis said, God uses pain as a MEGAPHONE to rouse a deaf world. But there is a clear distinction between that position and the Calvinian one. A Calvinist, to be consistent, says that everything that happens happens exactly according to God's will, because God's will is the ultimate determining factor for every event. So why is there evil? God willed it. Why are there some who are eternally damned? God willed it.
I just want to note this again. What’s being said. It’s being admitted that BOTH CALVINISM AND ARMINIANS (I’ll lump open theists in this camp for now) can apply a greater good framework where God uses evil means to achieve “greater good” ends. The only difference is that Calvinists have to apply this for ALL evil, where Arminians do not.
So, theodicy wise, free will doesn’t get you THAT much mileage over Calvinism…especially when one realizes that one CANNOT tell how much of the evil in an open view world comes from God. It could be anywhere from 30% to 97.9%. You wouldn’t know and you couldn’t tell. Just like Doc has said before: Once you allow for this, God ordaining ALL evil for a greater good “mosaic” is a theoretical possibility.
Will we all admit this?
********************************
Ross:
quote:
So here's my question for you Meph. How do you reconcile God actions that you seem to believe cause so much trouble for any defense of God's goodness? I know that you believe that God is love, and therefore cannot act unloving, we've both argued for this elsewhere.
So if you believe that God is love you cannot believe that these actions are unloving. You've challenged everyone else's theodicy-- WHAT IS YOURS?
I separate love and ethics. God’s essential existence AS love and God’s love for each individual in their distinctiveness (INCLUDING SATAN) is firmly grounded on these 3 theological truths…
1) God is triune loving, benevolent relationality within Godself. Perichoresis, baby.
2) God’s continual sustaining grace of all sentient beings in their individual distinctiveness is an expression of God’s love TO ALL EXISTING SENTIENT BEINGS.
3) The Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection of the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth
Breaking these down…
1) God is triune loving, benevolent relationality within Godself.
The orthodox Christian conception of God, historically speaking, states that the members of the Trinity have ALWAYS shared life and love with each other eternally…and exist in constant love relationship. To conceptualize of a triune being that merely has relationality between three centers of willing but NOT love would NOT be describing the Christian God. Because this is God’s essential existence, and Creation is contingent in every sense, Creation (and the aspects therein) doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not God IS love. God’s interactions with Creation don’t DETERMINE whether or not God’s is loving. A proper understanding of God as Trinity does that.
2) God’s continual sustaining grace of all sentient beings in their individual distinctiveness is an expression of God’s love TO ALL EXISTING SENTIENT BEINGS.
If you will recall my “description” of love that we discussed a while back (http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2404), you notice that I end up saying that God’s continual upholding of all things by His Word and power is an expression of God’s love that touches all existent beings. If this is the case, then it can never be said that God doesn’t love EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON in their distinctiveness at all times. Even while God was doing what he did to Pharaoh (for what we assume to be good reasons, ethically speaking), God was still sustaining Pharoah’s existence by His power…just like God does the rest of Creation. In this, God was expressing God’s love and grace TO Pharaoh. God expresses God’s love at all times to ALL beings, including Satan.
3) The Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection of the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth
Now, HERE’S the biggie. Stay with me on this. There are two fundamental absurdities in the Christ Work.
1) An Infinite Being became a FINITE being.
2) A HOLY Being actually BECAME sin in taking sin upon itself.
Now these are categorical differences. Infinity-finitude. Holiness-profanity. There are no LOGICAL meeting places between the two. To be one fully LOGICALLY precludes being the other. But somehow, God did this in the Christ Work. But is there any reason that God would do this? Well, love of course. That’s what biblical testimony clearly shows. But WHY this?? I believe this is how it HAD to go down.
Think about this. How can an infinite, holy God interact with finite, profane creatures? If you think about it, without SOME type of mediating force, the infinitude and holiness of God would instantly swallow up and DESTROY any finite, profane thing that it came in direct contact with. Perfect holiness IS a consuming fire that cannot tolerate sin in ANY degree. And God is omnipresent…which would mean that there would be NO WAY to avoid the direct contact between perfect holiness and finite, profane things. What this means is that without some type of mediating operation, there would be NO WAY that God could have ANY relationality with finite, profaned beings. God’s being would DESTROY them upon Creation!
Ah, but what if God were to have a PLAN? Yes, an ETERNAL plan that would have a TEMPORAL manifestation. In this plan, God would deny all reason and UNITE Godself with finitude AND actually BECOME sin. This rank absurdity that only true omnipotence could attain would make the way for finite, profane beings to actually EXIST in the omnipresence of an Infinite, Holy God! God wanted relationality with created sentient beings SO MUCH that God was willing to do the painful and absurd to achieve it.
THIS IS RADICAL LOVE AND CREATIVITY UNPARALLELED!
And this is radical love exhibited to ALL sentient beings, even Satan!
************************************
Now, notice something VERY carefully. Is libertarian freedom (or a lack thereof) even on the friggin RADAR with these three theological truths. NO! Everyone from the most staunch double predestinarian to the most liberated open free willer could affirm these unassailable 3 theological truths about the God-God and God-world relationship. As such, any person who locates their believe in the love of God in these 3 truths could be a full 5 point Calvinist OR an open theist.
Notice something else. Do the 3 theological truths hinge on a Zosia episode? Or a Holocaust episode? Or a Pharaoh episode? Or a Sept. 11th episode? NO! They hinge on what we know about God’s nature and activity in the world from Scripture.
I’ve told Doc this in no uncertain terms. I REFUSE to relativize these 3 Scripturally based theological truths…just because God may be behind some things that we FINITE BEINGS perceive as ethically unacceptable. I’m not going to judge a God who we all SUPPOSEDLY believe embodies the 3 theological truths I have mentioned…just because I don’t like the idea of God ordaining the death of a little Jewish girl for God’s own divine , mysterious, purposes. I find the very idea silly beyond words…and about an inch away from rank idolatry. (Yeah, I said it. What?) Just like I am not going to judge a God as “hand-wringing” and “arbitrary” who decides to create freedom and indeterminacy in Creation. JUST as idolatrous! And make no mistake, Ross. Relativizing the 3 theological truths is EXACTLY what you’d have to do if you wanted to try to demonize either open view theism OR Calvinism.
I feel that if one MAJORS ON THE FRIGGIN MAJORS, that the contrived actions of theodicy with respect to why bad things happen to good people are NOT NECESSARY. Perhaps people wouldn’t be so PERSONALLY INVESTED in their theodicies and repudiations of other people’s theologies. Hmmm…
My two cents.
The TRUE “brazen”,
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/5/2003 6:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Geebob (emphasis mine):
quote:
Ultimately, pharoah's overall attitude towards God was one of rebellion. This is independent of the individual hardening's and relentings. There is good reason to withold judgement to the effect that Pharoah's attitude comes not from his own will and past but from God. [quote]
and…
[quote]I prefer to think that Pharoah did not have much libertarian freedom at any point in the narrative. It is well within a consistent approach to libertarian freedom to say that the libertarian moment was satisfied in the life of pharoah before this episode ever happened. Pharoah could have lived a life positively responding to the grace of God that was available to him. But since he didn't, he would play the clown of Egypt representing that oppressive nation in the punishments it would recieve for her opressions.
So in Pharoah's life, we could see an example of poverbs 16:9. "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."
Pharoah is the one who ultimately determined that his general attitude was against the lord and God determined how that attitude would work itself out.
Looking at the embolded part, it seems that you want to say that Pharaoh’s heart was freely SELF-SOLIDIFIED against God in rebellion before ANY of this stuff happened. And all God did was use good ol’ compatibilistic exploitation to make SURE that Pharaoh would not let the people go. Ok. Fine. Even though this really seems like an ad hoc ASSUMPTION, let’s go with it.
Please explain God’s prophecy to Abram in light of what you’ve just said. Please remember what this prophecy said…
Gen. 15:12-16
As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years; but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
If we take this to have actually happened, HOW could God say “KNOW FOR CERTAIN” that this would happen if it was truly a CONTINGENT PROCESS that a God-rebelling Pharaoh would raise up?? It seems much more plausible that ALL of this was a set up…even the rise to power of a new Pharaoh who did NOT know Joseph and who was mean.
So, answer that for me. Oh, and since you’re going this route…
Was Pharaoh MORALLY RESPONSIBLE for the times that he refused to let the people go WHILE UNDER GOD’S COMPATIBILISTIC EXPLOITATION?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Laika
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| Posted 11/5/2003 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi wrote:
quote:
Ex. 4:21
And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
This is EXTREMELY important to note! First of all, God told Moses this BEFORE Moses even went back to Egypt! (This is actually right before God tries to KILL Moses on the way, where Zipporah has to do the bloody circumcision.) Before Moses even sees Pharoah, God lets him know THAT Pharaoh won’t listen and WHY: God’s gonna harden him. And surprise, surprise. What happens in Ex. 5?
Mephi, read Exodus 1. We see that even before Moses was born:
1. Pharoah was a new king in Egypt, didn't know Joseph (v 8)
2. Pharoah determined to deal wisely with Isreal due to their growing numbers (v 10)
3. Pharoah deliberately appointed "taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor" (v 11)
4. Pharoah "compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously" (v 13)
5. Pharoah "made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them" (v 14)
6. Pharoah commanded the Hebrew midwives to kill any male Hebrews born (v 15, 16) [They disobeyed Pharoah]
All this before Moses was born.
In chapter 2, Pharoah tries to have Moses killed. At the end of chapter 2, "God saw the sons of Israel, and God took notice of them".
All this occurred before God called Moses to go to Egypt. You make Pharoah sound like a passive pawn but he was determined to eradicate a racial and religious minority within his territory. If God did any unilateral hardening of Pharoah's heart, it sure didn't require much effort on God's part.
How does God harden Pharoah's heart? Is it a secret method we don't see? Or is it in the text? I.E. is this hardening seen in the pattern --> while(1) God brings a plague, Pharoah resists.
Pharoah's disobedience and renewal of his resistence IS the hardening. It's not some secret, mystical thing God is doing in the background.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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One Love
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| Posted 11/5/2003 6:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika (emphasis mine):
quote:
Mephi, read Exodus 1. We see that even before Moses was born:
1. Pharoah was a new king in Egypt, didn't know Joseph (v 8)
2. Pharoah determined to deal wisely with Isreal due to their growing numbers (v 10)
3. Pharoah deliberately appointed "taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor" (v 11)
4. Pharoah "compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously" (v 13)
5. Pharoah "made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them" (v 14)
6. Pharoah commanded the Hebrew midwives to kill any male Hebrews born (v 15, 16) [They disobeyed Pharoah]
All this before Moses was born.
In chapter 2, Pharoah tries to have Moses killed. At the end of chapter 2, "God saw the sons of Israel, and God took notice of them".
All this occurred before God called Moses to go to Egypt. You make Pharoah sound like a passive pawn but he was determined to eradicate a racial and religious minority within his territory. If God did any unilateral hardening of Pharoah's heart, it sure didn't require much effort on God's part.
I’m assuming your point is that Pharoah was not a nice person in the first place. We all know this, Laika. (Actually, I have read Exodus 1. Thanks for the advice though.  )
Listen, peeps. The point is not how much effort it took to “harden” Pharaoh. But WHY and WHEN it was done. The text makes crystal clear that the REASON that Pharaoh wouldn’t listen is BECAUSE OF God’s hardening…
Ex. 4:21
And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
It doesn’t MATTER how mean Pharaoh was beforehand. What matters is that God says that he will harden Pharaoh’s heart SO THAT he won’t let the people go.
Pharaoh’s funky attitude is NOT the main determining factor in what occurs. GOD is the DEFINITIVE reason why it is CERTAIN that Pharaoh will not let em go. God says so HIMSELF.
You see this, right?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
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| Posted 11/5/2003 7:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
Yeah but what does it mean "God hardened Pharoah's heart"?
Does God reach into Pharoah and flip some switch? Or do we see this hardening in the text?
God knows Pharoah's character and determination to eradicate the Hebrews. God knows that by stick-poking Pharoah, Pharoah will respond in more disobedience and resistence. God is not responsible for the disobedience and resistence, He's responsible for the stick-poking. The stick-poking is not capricious, God has a job He wants accomplished.
Can you describe this “stick-poking” for these?
Ex. 12:29-35
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his officials and all the Egyptians; and there was a loud cry in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead. Then he summoned Moses and Aaron in the night, and said, “Rise up, go away from my people, both you and the Israelites! Go, worship the LORD, as you said. Take your flocks and your herds, as you said, and be gone. And bring a blessing on me too!” (Note: Pharaoh is so fed up he’s asking for a BLESSING??)
The Egyptians urged the people to hasten their departure from the land, for they said, “We shall all be dead.” So the people took their dough before it was leavened, with their kneading bowls wrapped up in their cloaks on their shoulders. The Israelites had done as Moses told them; they had asked the Egyptians for jewelry of silver and gold, and for clothing, and the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. And so they plundered the Egyptians.
Ex. 14:1-9
Then the LORD said to Moses: Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall camp opposite it, by the sea. Pharaoh will say of the Israelites, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has closed in on them.’ I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, the minds of Pharaoh and his officials were changed toward the people, and they said, “What have we done, letting Israel leave our service?” So he had his chariot made ready, and took his army with him; he took six hundred picked chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt with officers over all of them. The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out boldly. The Egyptians pursued them, all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, his chariot drivers and his army; they overtook them camped by the sea, by Pi-hahiroth, in front of Baal-zephon.
Please recall that the Israelites were long gone…and Pharaoh and the Egyptians seemed GLAD to see em go. But all of a sudden, Pharaoh is told that the Israelites were doing what HE said they COULD do…and all of a sudden, Pharoah wants em back! So, Let me try a guess. The being told about his order being carried out is what made them forget ALL about the junk that Egypt just went through with God and all that. God just “poked” at Pharoah by sending some lackey to say “Hey, the Israelites are gone, just like you and the people wanted.” THAT was the “hardening”
Ok. Fine. Let’s even go with THAT.
Would you still not say that God, KNOWING WHAT GOD KNEW about the situation, was in NO WAY responsible for the disobedience that God KNEW would result? God KNEW that Pharaoh would end up sending both himself and his men to utter destruction…even AFTER the Israelites had completely plundered Egypt. But God’s NOT responsible for adding complete insult to devastating injury. Nope. Even though God could have waited until the Israelites were LONG GONE to do this, God decided to poke at the ant hill a little early. But hey, God ain’t to blame. God’s just a big stick-poker who barely did anything. Yep.
Wow. This is COMPLETELY amazing.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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timlings
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| Posted 11/5/2003 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, Homework Time!
A good book to read is "God's Strategy in Human History" by Paul Marsden and Roger Forster. Deals with this all rather radically and splendidly.
Just a few ideas from it...
the word 'harden' could actually better be translated as 'strengthen'. It's pretty morally neutral. So I can be strengthened to do good, and strengthened to do evil. With the latter, it's basically God giving Pharoah the bloody-mindedness to persevere on a plan of action that is becoming increasingly more and more ridiculous (resist God and the plagues). Pharoah could have folded, but it would have been out of cowardice not repentance.
Does that make any difference though...
Probably not.
Looking back at recent history, crazy dictators do get locked into evil behaviour that they just keep doing even though it's going all wrong. Like Hitler towards the end of WWII. He should have realised he was beaten a long time back, but didn't.
Just my tuppence hapenny
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rossfadeinout
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| Posted 11/6/2003 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
Appreciate your response... I don't have to much time cos I'm at work but let me just make a couple of comments, and hopefully I'll be able to interact more as time allows.
quote:
I just want to note this again. What’s being said. It’s being admitted that BOTH CALVINISM AND ARMINIANS (I’ll lump open theists in this camp for now) can apply a greater good framework where God uses evil means to achieve “greater good” ends. The only difference is that Calvinists have to apply this for ALL evil, where Arminians do not.
So, theodicy wise, free will doesn’t get you THAT much mileage over Calvinism…especially when one realizes that one CANNOT tell how much of the evil in an open view world comes from God. It could be anywhere from 30% to 97.9%. You wouldn’t know and you couldn’t tell. Just like Doc has said before: Once you allow for this, God ordaining ALL evil for a greater good “mosaic” is a theoretical possibility.
I've been thinking about what you've said here, and I still think that there is a fundamental difference between my approach and a Calvinian one. Under a Calvinistic undertanding evil ultimately originates with the will of God, whereas the ultimate origination of evil in an Arminian understanding comes from FREE AGENTS. I still think this is a huge difference. God uses evil for the purpose of bringing good out of it-- to bring rebels back to Himself. I still haven't heard an adequate explanation as to why God would CAUSE evil and suffering in the first place, which is what a consistent Calvinist would have to hold to.
quote:
2) God’s continual sustaining grace of all sentient beings in their individual distinctiveness is an expression of God’s love TO ALL EXISTING SENTIENT BEINGS.
If you will recall my “description” of love that we discussed a while back (http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2404), you notice that I end up saying that God’s continual upholding of all things by His Word and power is an expression of God’s love that touches all existent beings. If this is the case, then it can never be said that God doesn’t love EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON in their distinctiveness at all times. Even while God was doing what he did to Pharaoh (for what we assume to be good reasons, ethically speaking), God was still sustaining Pharoah’s existence by His power…just like God does the rest of Creation. In this, God was expressing God’s love and grace TO Pharaoh. God expresses God’s love at all times to ALL beings, including Satan.
I agree with your three points, with a question about this point #2. Would you say that "God’s continual sustaining grace of all sentient beings in their individual distinctiveness is an expression of God’s love TO ALL EXISTING SENTIENT BEINGS" if said sentinent being was purposed by God to eternal damnation and seperation from true bliss and joy?
I don't think that you would because of this quote from the thread that you linked to. quote:
“…to empower the other person B to have the ability to become more of a person before God and him/herself…”
Love seeks to provide the other with the ability and the space to “become”. This is the fundamental affirmation of the SUBJECT. The provision of this ability and space, by whatever means, is empowerment of the individual. The personhood that this individual actualizes is truly his/her own, but love realizes that this only truly occurs in a context and it does all that it can to provide that context.
I think that this explanation of love that involves giving the other the space and ability to become is right on. But this is in fundamental contradiction with the Calvinian understanding of human action.
I believe that God uses character solidificaion often to accomplish his purposes, but never at the expense of denying an individual the ability to come to find the true purpose of existence -- the intimate knowledge of God.
And this is exactly what the Calvinistic system logically implies. God, for his glory (not sure how bringing about somethin that you're supposed to be against brings you glory if you're God) causes evil originally, and for a large part of humanity CAUSES their eternal seperation from eternal life.
What do you think?
Ross
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geebob
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| Posted 11/6/2003 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Please explain God’s prophecy to Abram in light of what you’ve just said. Please remember what this prophecy said…
I am not overly concerned with libertarian freedom for a nation. I do believe it exists. For whatever reason, i'd say that it was possible that God knew that Egypt was stabilized in it's apathy towards him and the oppressions that existed in that nation. And perhaps God thought it would be good for israel to go through some oppression, (not that he ordained the wicked extremes to which it would go, ie tossing babies to the crocodiles). So in God's resourcefulness, he used the direction which Egypt was heading for the betterment of his people, a lesson that Egypt needed to learn,m and to spread his name through the world.
Now do individuals need to be predestined in terms of their obedience or disobedience? Not at all. Suppose pharoah had responded positively to God's grace. Perhaps then he would not have been pharoah at the relevent time then. Perhaps another man would have been made pharoah. Perhaps another man was made pharoah and the pharoah we read about was pharoah B because the first man for the job responded to God's grace positively.
At any rate, the direction of a nation need not determine the direction of an individual. Nations can move in a direction according to statistical necessity although individuals go which ever way. And we do read about such individuals in the exodus12:38.
Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.
quote:
Was Pharaoh MORALLY RESPONSIBLE for the times that he refused to let the people go WHILE UNDER GOD’S COMPATIBILISTIC EXPLOITATION?
You could support that pharoah was indeed responsible with at least virtue ethics. The libertarian would still also insist on indeterminism, and there's nothing to say that we didn't have that near the earlier part of pharoah's life. And Exodus 9:30 can be interpreted strongly for this since it shows a rebellion that is not attributed to God. So we have indeterminism, we have the intention, and we have the result. Thus in virtue ethics, he was.
Another way to look at it is that pharoah was as responsible for what he did proportional to the degree and number of libertarian choices that he made against God prior to this episode. Each choice would solidify his character in a direction more and more and the more solidified it was on due to his own actions, the more responsible he was. if there was any artificial solidification on God's part, (which would not have been total because pharoah must still ultimately be responsible for his own predicament, but I doubt this was necessary), I would say that God's judgement of him would be harsh to a proportionally inverse degree to the degree that the solidifying of character.
I would add that this episode could be seen as God attempting to break through the walls of solidification in pharoah's heart. God would then also be hardening pharoah's heart for those individual stupid acts to break him and his nation of their rebellion. So in other words, God could have been renewing the libertarian moment in pharoah's life. Of course we don't know whether or not he repented in the end, but he may have had a libertarian chance to do so (and not a certainty) after this ordeal.
quote:
Fine. Even though this really seems like an ad hoc ASSUMPTION, let’s go with it.
As long as it is possible, the answer works. Perhaps some of the details I've suggested are not as they were, but nevertheless, a logically consistent answer even if improbable still supports the broader paradigm which has greater strength elsewhere. But I think my answer is better than that.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/12/2003 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Ross:
quote:
I've been thinking about what you've said here, and I still think that there is a fundamental difference between my approach and a Calvinian one. Under a Calvinistic undertanding evil ultimately originates with the will of God, whereas the ultimate origination of evil in an Arminian understanding comes from FREE AGENTS. I still think this is a huge difference. God uses evil for the purpose of bringing good out of it-- to bring rebels back to Himself. I still haven't heard an adequate explanation as to why God would CAUSE evil and suffering in the first place, which is what a consistent Calvinist would have to hold to.
Under an open view theist system, evil ultimately originates with the will of God too. God KNEW that, in creating an open world, the emergence of sin (and all of it’s effects) was an inevitability. So, in this way, God’s will IS the ultimate origination of evil. God could have either 1) not created or 2) created unchangably loving contingent beings such that sin would NOT exist. But God did neither.
Therefore God is responsible. God basically thought the inevitable emergence of sin was “worth it”, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Which is just what a Calvinist would say. Get it?
****************************
Ross:
quote:
Would you say that "God’s continual sustaining grace of all sentient beings in their individual distinctiveness is an expression of God’s love TO ALL EXISTING SENTIENT BEINGS" if said sentinent being was purposed by God to eternal damnation and seperation from true bliss and joy?
Yes. Unless you want to claim that God’s current sustanance of SATAN (who is supposedly SOLIDIFIED against God) is unloving. If you feel that way, then just be an annihilationist. But then you’d have to explain why God hasn’t eliminated Satan, the QUINTESSENTIAL hopeless case.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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rossfadeinout
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| Posted 11/12/2003 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
Good to see you, I was wondering where you were. Lets get going... quote:
Under an open view theist system, evil ultimately originates with the will of God too. God KNEW that, in creating an open world, the emergence of sin (and all of it’s effects) was an inevitability. So, in this way, God’s will IS the ultimate origination of evil. God could have either 1) not created or 2) created unchangably loving contingent beings such that sin would NOT exist. But God did neither.
Therefore God is responsible. God basically thought the inevitable emergence of sin was “worth it”, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Which is just what a Calvinist would say. Get it?
I'm not following your equivocation of the term "responsible" in the two seperate scenarios. In the Open theist view, God creates FREE AGENTS with the ability to freely choose to follow God or to rebel and thwart God's desires. The Calvinian view says that God creates creatures that act according to their strongest desires, which they have no control over. So the desire to rebel would be a direct act of God. Surely you don't believe that God is just as responsible for sin in either case?
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Laplace
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| Posted 11/12/2003 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | This question reminds me of one in the movie "Star Trek: Nemesis". The accusation posed to Piccard by his evil clone was that if he (good Piccard) was in the same crappy conditions that he was in growing up (oppression, destitution, etc.) that he would become the exact evil that he had. Therefore, in a sense, it wasn't really his fault that he became evil.
"You are me! The same noble Picard blood runs through our veins. Had you lived my life, you'd be doing exactly as I am... Look in the mirror and see yourself. Consider that, Captain... I can think of no greater torment for you." -Shinzon
On the suface it does pose an interesting question, that God said beforehand that He would harden the heart of Pharoah. The debate of course is whether this is a result of illusionary free will or masked predeterminism.
Using other Biblical analogies such as Salvation will probably do little to change people's minds. So I will appeal to Biblical context as well as reason.
As Data told Piccard, he is not "destined" to become evil even if their positions were reversed because one has a choice. Ah, choice. Is it merely an illusion as someone in a famous (or infamous to some) movie stated, or is it more?
One of the main disadvantages we don't see in Biblical characters is their entire life. We just see snippets of what kind of person someone is. This can seriously skew our biases towards people. For example, say we only saw historical footage of the following events:
- Hitler's speeches to the masses and his shaking hands with Germans
- Nixon's resignation
What would we think these types of people are especially when compared with one another's actual lives?
In our instance, we only get glimpses of what kind of people Pharoah is. Was he destined to be marked for hardening? I believe not. For one, for many years he had a choice on how to run Egypt and treat the Israelites. It only said in Abram's dream that the nation they served would be judged. It didn't say Ramses III (or whoever the individual was) was marked per se.
C.S. Lewis once wrote that the safest road to Hell was the gradual one--the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. In other words, Hell is a choice brought upon us by choices we make. Some choices are limited by our situation (being born in an abusive family for example limits our capabilities for mutual love), and some are a result of choices that we make (like being put in prison for a crime we commit). Pharoah had some disadvantages for sure not being sensitive to Jehovah. He was brought up in a pagan culture, lived affluently (the rich tend not to need God), and was not told about Joseph. However, he did have opporutnities. He could've administered justice so that Israel was treated fairly, he could've investigated this Jehovah of theirs, etc. However, he didn't.
The objection that may be brought up then is, "If that's the case, then how could God's will be fulfilled?" because in theory, if people had a REAL choice, then people could thwart God's will.
Therein lies the mystery and I make no apologies for not explaining it to anyone's satisfaction. I will say though that what helps me is knowing that God holds each individual accountable for their own lives and the choices they make in that life. God may know what choices will be made (or the outcome; again, OVT stuff which I don't want to debate now). But knowing that God being a God of both love and justice will indeed see His will prevail. Finally, even with failure there is always the possibility of repentance. Despite denying Christ 3 times and being told he would do so, Peter did not harden heart but desired to be right with God. Contrast this to Judas who was told he would betray Jesus and his actions afterwards.
So how I would reconcile the problem of Pharoah? Simply I would say that what God said would happen would happen. "These things [that cause people to sin] must come, but woe to them who they come through". Yet, Pharoah as in individual could've avoided judgement by doing justly. What about the outcome then? I predict one possibility would be for God to remove Pharoah prematurely (death, etc.) and let another Pharoah make the choice. Another would for Israel to be enslaved in another nation (not necessarily Egypt). That might then lead to a change of words on God's part when talking with Moses. Again, I make no attempts at full proof convincing, but I am saying that we ought not to accuse God of being "unfair", especially to someone with as much power as Pharoah.
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