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phil_five
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 11/12/2003 10:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | OK, I have not really looked at Open-view theism as much as I should before posting, perhaps. But I am just going to post some thoughts/questions regardless.
It is my understanding that God only knows the future as probabilities (in open view.) If this is so how does prophecy fit into the picture?
How can God know what will happen?
If God knows only future probabilities, then wouldn't he need to mess with some people's free-will to ensure the fulfillment of prophecy?
Thanks
Phil | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 11/12/2003 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Phil: It is my understanding that God only knows the future as probabilities (in open view.)
Alan: Not quite. According to OT, the future is partly settled and partly open.
Phil: How does prophecy fit into the picture?
Alan: In OT God retains the sovereign right to fix any aspects of the future that he wants to fix, including limiting the free will of creatures if necessary to accomplish his goals.
Phil: How can God know what will happen?
Alan: He can know what will happen insofar as it is NOW settled that it will happen. Thus God can know any events that follow deterministically from present causes and events that he has sovereignly willed to bring about come what may.
Phil: If God knows only future probabilities, then wouldn't he need to mess with some people's free-will to ensure the fulfillment of prophecy?
Alan: In some cases that may be necessary. Some open theists may have a problem with that. Frankly, I don't. I figure that God's got the right to mess with my free will if he wants to. At the same time I think God is just and fair, so to the extent that he has to mess with anyone's free will, he does not hold that person responsible. But we should not underestimate God's ability to influence the course of history without having to resort to overriding a person's free will. There's a lot that God can do to motivate a person to act a certain way short of overriding our free choices.
Hope that helps.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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phil_five
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 11/13/2003 6:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Just for clarification, could you explain how the future is parlty settled and partly open?
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/13/2003 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | The future is partly settled:
I will pay taxes.
The sun will rise tomorrow.
Jesus will return.
The future is partly open:
Which sock I will pull out of the drawer tomorrow.
What lottery numbers will come up.
Where raindrops will land.
I can live my life based on the certainties and work with the uncertainties. We need a mixture of both, not too random and not too set in stone, otherwise we can't cope.
Often the uncertainties are just variables within set boundaries, i.e. I will definitely go to bed tonight, but it is uncertain the exact hour or minute or second.
Does that makes any sense?
love
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 11/14/2003 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Alan Rhoda
Alan: Not quite. According to OT, the future is partly settled and partly open.
Phil: How does prophecy fit into the picture?
Alan: In OT God retains the sovereign right to fix any aspects of the future that he wants to fix, including limiting the free will of creatures if necessary to accomplish his goals.
Phil: How can God know what will happen?
Alan: He can know what will happen insofar as it is NOW settled that it will happen. Thus God can know any events that follow deterministically from present causes and events that he has sovereignly willed to bring about come what may.
Hmm,
Perhaps this is where I differ on my explanations and am a bit uncomfortable with the "partly settled" phrase. If we mean by that that God has determined certain things to be so in the eschaton (end time) I am good. If we mean that a specific person is going to do a specific thing, them I have the same problems I do with classical theism: all events the person is dependent on as contingent to their existence are mandatory to the event so planned or “settled.”
Alan (above) uses the term “fix” indicating this is how he views this.
The problem is identical to the problems with the classical view, free will is eliminated in the lives of tens of thousands of individuals who are antecedents to the person with the settled issue or event.
Let’s say that person ‘Y’ is known by God to do event ‘M’ on year ‘X.’ Let’s assume that years is 2000 years off and that we have 20 years between generations, so, we have 100 generations to go before Y does M. How many people are effected? Again assume no siblings, just single children.
Directly we have generation -1 with 2 people, generation -2 with 4 people. Etc. Every generation doubles the number so we have 2x100 people or 200 people directly that can have absolutely no choice when to conceive or with who to conceive. Theologically I have no problem except in the situation where sin is involved, say a rape or illegitimacy. But then we have mere statistics. What is the probability that a certain combination of genes needed to produce a certain individual will come together at a specific point in time in a single event (coupling)? About 1:2,000,000 but mating is not a single event it is multiple, so even here we have problems at different levels.
Suffice to say, all these events leading to the “settles” event must be tightly controlled and that simply isn’t how the world appears to operate nor does scripture hint of this.
What we do see is God working things out within the free will of people and occasionally, he, by right, interferes with those free wills to cause something he desires to happen.
So, if you mean by “partly settled” that God will cause a certain thing to happen and will choose someone to do it, I’m there. The alternative puts one of our feet back in the most troubling part of classical view theism.
"Neuk'em" | | Back to Top | | |
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 11/17/2003 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | OK, Doc, but the subject is not reality, the subject is the future. Again, if the future is somewhat settled, I posit that it is the ideas of what God intends to do and this is contingent on what people do, i.e. it is not the case that a certain person will be the antichrist, rather that a person will elevate to that position through his own efforts, and possible with the help of God empowering him to do what he wants to do, but not that person X yet unborn will do this because of the complexities I enumerated above.
Reality, say the laws of physical, rules of behavior, etc. etc. are stable, the question is; what in the future is settled.
Yes, it is settled that we will go to by brother-in-laws house in Julian for Thanksgiving this year just like the last ten have been, however, if not for a friend of his who moved fuel away from his home in Julian and squashed the fires, we would have had the even here because his house was within yards of the recent fires.
To the extent that we can control the future it is settled. To the extent we cannot, it is not.
"Neuk'em" | | Back to Top | | |
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