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twoblink
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 8/20/2001 2:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | I was going to give my rant (in email) about my views on Predeterminism vs. Free Will, but someone requested that I post it instead.. so... sit back, relax, grab a cold one, and prepare to disagree...
First, there seems to be a huge belief basis that Predeterminism and Free Will can't exist together. I find that to be BS. It exists fine in my head, and without conflict of congnative dissonance. So I will present to you my views on how the two have a happy marriage.
The tools I will be using today to reenforce my arguements will be:
1) The movie Karate Kid (Part 1)
2) An episode of Twilight Zone called "A MOST UNUSUAL CAMERA" (2nd Season)
3) An episode of Star Trek, TNG (Where Worf is caught in a parallel universe convergance)
4) General Star Trek based quantum mechanics with 7 of 9.
5) Star Trek TNG I think 6th season finale with Captain Picard and Q, human race on trial
OK, let's start with Karate Kid. There was a scene in the movie, I think it was Daniel's birthday, and Mr. Miagi told him to choose a car. So Daniel chose the bright yellow one. When he got in, there was a pair of keys in there already. OK, follow me here. Question, did Daniel have free will to choose? Answer: Yes! Question, did Mr. Miagi know what Daniel was going to choose? Answer: Yes! So if you think of Mr. Miagi as a symbolic God, (but a lot shorter) it would then be ok to conclude that Mr. Miagi predetermined what Daniel was going to choose, and prepared for it, but it in no way intefered with Daniel's free will to choose. Tada! Predeterminism and Free Will co-existing as one. But wait! What if Daniel didn't choose the yellow car? We have no idea if there are keys in the other cars too! But does it matter? Because Daniel had free will. But suppose Daniel had chosen another car, if Mr. Miagi was God, he would have known that (Predeterminism) and compensated accordingly.
Which leads us to Predeterminism problems and answers. Those who say free will only and Predeterminism doesn't exist, didn't see the episode of Twilight Zone. Brief background, 2 thieves find a camera that takes a picture of 5 minutes into the future. So they take the camera to the race track, and take a pic of the finishing board, and win a lot of money. Later on, when they get back home, they argue over it, and one of them pushes the other out the window... He then decides to take a picture of it. He laughs, as the picture fades in, and he sees next to his dead friend, in the picture is, himself... so he freaks out, runs to the window to look, trips, and falls to his death also. This shows that even under free will, Predeterminism is inevitable. Also, its says that Predeterminism exists independent of free will, and that just because you know what the future holds, doesn't mean you can change it.
If you hear the ranting of 7 of 9 on Star Trek (how does she fit into that outfit??), the episode where she's on that Time ship, the guy asks her about her basic knowledge of time travel paradoxes. She names them. One of the paradoxes that was experienced by the people in the twilight zone, was one of which, knowing the future causes the actions on the part of the person that ultimately results in the exact future. If this is true (or at least I believe it to be true) then we are talking about then, Predeterminism as something that in inevitable, and that is completely independent of free will.
Then we have the episode where Worf from Star Trek TNG comes back from a Battlet and he wins first place. But due to temperal disturbances, he's caught in parallel universes. So while he still retains his memories, he is actually in parallel universes; the theory being that there are infinite parallel universes, and the pathes you choose determine which of the infinite possibilities you end up at. This then actually proves the same thing as what I said above, but in reverse focus. It proves that free will is independent of Predeterminism.
Because this means that predeterminism just is nothing more than a bunch of infinitely branching out decision trees, which is nothing without a player to run this actual maze. Predeterminism then exists only at the whim of a free willed participant.
So now that you all are thoroughly confused, I thought I'd sum up what I just said.
Predeterminism vs. Free Will can co-exist together perfectly, and in fact, it would be almost awkward if they didn't. What you do find out is that there is no way to be sure that your Free Will isn't predetermined already, but by the same token, Predetermined paths (Like for Worf) is meaningless unless there is the context of someone who is making choices. We also know from Karate Kid that there's a prime example of Free Will and Predetermined co-existing, and further more, there are signs that regardless of what your free will choice is, you almost can't escape preterminism because Mr. Miagi could have just had keys in every car, and covered all the possible basis.
What most people don't understand is that we live in a 2 dimentional world; namely Time and Space. In the episode with Captain Picard and Q, where the human race was on trial, The captain was actually the cause for his own temperal rift. When he started to think in 2 dimentions, that allowed the concept of anti-time to be evaluated. That led him to a different thinking. Time does not make sense without Space as a context. Similiarly, Space makes no sense without the context of Time. Same with Free Will and Predeterminism. Free Will does not make sense without the context of predeterminism, and predeterminism does not make sense without the context of Free Will. It is when people realize, that the very definition of free will requires the definition of predeterminism as part of it's definition, and visa versa, that people begin to realize, that not only are they independent but co-exist well, one is required in order for the other to exist, yet one does not influence the other. Like Fractal thinking, and chinese Yin-Yang symbols, neither cross the border into the other, but without the other, the circle could never be complete, independent as a part, completes a bigger picture as a whole.
So while it's clear in my head, I hope I have presented it clearly.. I'm sure I didn't... But thanks for reading it all.
Albert
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 8/21/2001 7:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome to the forums dude! Hope you find a tall German gal who digs ya in the near future  .
you said
quote:
So while it's clear in my head, I hope I have presented it clearly.. I'm sure I didn't... But thanks for reading it all.
I think you're pretty confused blink.
It seems pretty obvious that all of the cars that Miyagi brought out had the keys in them becuase to move a car from one place to another is easiest by starting the car (with a key) and driving it to the place where you want it to be. I do not believe it at all probable that that little goober pushed all of those cars from one place to another.
you said
quote:
Predeterminism vs. Free Will can co-exist together perfectly, and in fact, it would be almost awkward if they didn't. What you do find out is that there is no way to be sure that your Free Will isn't predetermined already, but by the same token, Predetermined paths (Like for Worf) is meaningless unless there is the context of someone who is making choices. We also know from Karate Kid that there's a prime example of Free Will and Predetermined co-existing, and further more, there are signs that regardless of what your free will choice is, you almost can't escape preterminism because Mr. Miagi could have just had keys in every car, and covered all the possible basis.
What you describe MR Miyagi as doing here is much like what the open view affirms. If "all the possible bases are covered" so that no matter which choice you make God is prepared for it necessarily denies that God predetermined what choice you would make. Why would God cover all of the bases if the car you were to choose was predetermined beforehand? There would be absolutely no reason to do so sicne the possibility that you would choose something other than God predetermined is impossible.
you said
quote:
Time does not make sense without Space as a context. Similiarly, Space makes no sense without the context of Time. Same with Free Will and Predeterminism. Free Will does not make sense without the context of predeterminism, and predeterminism does not make sense without the context of Free Will. It is when people realize, that the very definition of free will requires the definition of predeterminism as part of it's definition, and visa versa, that people begin to realize, that not only are they independent but co-exist well, one is required in order for the other to exist, yet one does not influence the other.
Sorry. That doesn't seem to be true at all. God is said to predetemine some events (not all things) in Scripture and that He "works with [sunergei] all things for those who love Him" (Rom 8:28). God does nt need to predetermine every act a person makes for free-will to exist. Some things do occur by chance according to Christ (Luke 10:31) and if something ocurs according to chance then it is not predetermined.
I recommend you not use what goes on in movies to make your arguments (although Sanders said one time that he gets a lot of his theology from movies). We usually use Scripture as the starting point and then use situations similar to the ones you used above. In other words, please use Scripture whenever possible to make your case.
Gotta sleep 
And I have no trouble at all staying asleep either 
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 08/21/2001 12:03:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 8/21/2001 7:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey chance,
How did you make that cute little sleeping smiley face with the ZZZ's?
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When we can reach beyond our fears to the One who loves us with a love that was there before we were born and will be there after we die, then oppression, persecution, and even death will be unable to take our freedom.
Henri Nouwen | | Back to Top | | |
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twoblink
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 8/21/2001 7:55 AM (GMT -6) | | I use movies because they are easy to relate to in presentation of some of the concepts.
You are wrong. There is _NO_ confirmation that Mr. Miyagi has keys in all the other cars. You can assume it, but you know assume makes an a$$ out of u and me. That's what I am saying, we can assume that God is kind of better on both red and black, and covering all his bets, but this isn't stock derivatives and God isn't a day trader. You can go ahead and make any assumptions, but that's probably not a good one to make.
Strange... quote:
Why would God cover all of the bases if the car you were to choose was predetermined beforehand? There would be absolutely no reason to do so since the possibility that you would choose something other than God predetermined is impossible.
But the question I throw back is; by definition, isn't God omnipotent, and thus even if he didn't predetermine everything, the mere fact that that he is God means you cannot choose something that he didn't plan?
This leads to quite a strange theology which results in a conflict.
1) God can do anything
2) God knows everything
3) Question: If God can do anything, then can God make it so there's something (like your choices) into something he doesn't know? If so, then doesn't that contradict #2?
A friend said to me as far as his views on Free Will vs. PreD, "God's just reading a book about us, the book is written already (because God transends time) but he chooses not to peek at the end of the book to see what happens at the end, but instead lets the main characters choose.." I don't know about that.
I disagree with you [chance]. How can the definition of God still hold up if he does not have control over everything? The Bible talks about before you were born, you have been predestined to be one of God's children. Also, how does prophecy work if God does not have your life somewhat predetermined? Your argument is that God predetermines certain things, but not others for you. So like he kind of picks the college you go to, but not your major. Something like that? I don't think so. The Bible says that God knows the lilies of the field, each bird up in the sky, he knows the number of hair on your head. The Bible isn't talking about this just in the physical sense, but it is trying to show that God knows all and sees all. God transends time. That is the key. God is not locked by spacial coordinates or time. He knows the end of the story before the book starts. So there is no way for him not to know what you are going to choose.
There might be infinite possibilities arising from your choices, but God knows what you will choose. He has to in order to keep the definition of God. If he doesn't, then he is not omnipotent...
God in the old testiment rolled back time. So what does that mean? That means once again that God has control over time as an element, and it also means that free will regardless, decisions and actions are based in context of space and time, and the fact that God and roll back the clock (literally) and thus putting you in a different mindset (you already now know the outcomes of your previous choices) you might alter them. Is that still considered free will, or not since God has influenced you directly?
I still maintain that God knows your choices and has predetermined it, but you still have free will to choose.
One of the Christian libertarian lists I'm on, someone posed this question:
"If God told you that your wife will be killed tomorrow, would you still try to protect her?"
Great question. Why? Because now you are squarely put into a free will vs. preD question. Just because you know the outcome, do you then not bother trying your best to protect your wife? Or do you do it because it's the right thing to do, regardless of outcome, and that the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle should apply that even if it's God talking to you, you yourself aren't sure of the future even if He is, and so you have to do what you have to do to protect your wife, even if you might fear the outcome is already predetermined?
Thoughts that are way too much for just waking up....
Albert
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/21/2001 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome aboard twoblink: two observations:
1 You say, "If God told you that your wife will be killed tomorrow, would you still try to protect her?" And you answer, of course, because its the right thing to do.
I seems to me the Stoics were wiser. They believed in predestination and therefore concluded that the wise and goddly thing to do is the RESIGN yourself to what will be. They held that if you KNOW what will be, it is foolish to try to prevent it. Spend your energy coming to grips with it (though whether you do or not is itself predestined).
2 You note to "Chance" that making an "assumption" makes an "a$$" out of a person. Perhaps. But be careful here. Your argumentation is packed full of assumptions.
Of course if you assume that omnipotence means controlling everything, and
if you assume omniscience includes knowing the future, and
if you assume time travel is possible, and
if you assume God is timeless, and
if you assume God reads history like a finished book...
well, then I suppose your view may be rather convincing. (How could it not be,for the conclusion is built into the assumptions you make to get to it?)
But all these assumptions can be and have been questioned (indeed, I argue, they can be refuted). If you're interested in entertaining this possibility, my little book God of the Possible might be a place to start (or even the Open Theism section of this web site).
later
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 8/22/2001 6:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Twoblink,
When we discuss God, we should use material that we can trust. I can trust the Bible. I know that the Bible has been distorted, and that's a problem that has had a great effect on my life.
As we look at God’s character in the Bible and read what many have said about Him, I think that God’s Character has been sullied by zealous theologians. In his Institutes, v. 2, p. 206, Calvin wrote: “God . . . determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or death. [Further, in v. 2 p. 231 he continued,] Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. . . . [further, Calvin wrote] he forsees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen.”
The second is from Berkhof’s Systematic Theology, pp. 58,59: “God . . . is devoid of all change, not only in His Being, but also in His perfections, and in His purposes and promises. [He further makes a case, because of this], He is . . . free from all . . . growth or decay in His Being or perfections. His knowledge and plans, His moral principles and volitions remain forever the same. Even reason teaches us that no change is possible in God, since a change is either for better or for worse. [He was influenced by Plato and Plotinus, here.] . . . there is no change in His . . . attributes, His purpose, His motives of action, or His promises. . . . His repenting, changing His intention, and altering His relation to sinners . . . is only an anthropopathic way of speaking. In reality the change is not in God, but in man and in man’s relations to God.”
Is that the God of the Bible? No! God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Eze 33:11 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?” Our God is touched by our afflictions as well as Israel’s.
Further, what does the Bible really say about God’s immutability. The first time God changes is in Gen 6:4-7 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD repented [wayinachem] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent [nichamti] that I have made them.”
Not only did God change His mind in Gen 6, but, because He is compassionate and gracious, God wants to repent, as it shows us in Jer 26:3,13,19: “Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORD’s favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”
He repents because He is not impassible. He has compassion. Psa 106:43-45 Many times He delivered them; But they rebelled in their counsel, And were brought low for their iniquity. 44 Nevertheless He regarded their affliction, When He heard their cry; 45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant, and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.
He even laid down the ground rules for His own compassionate repentance in Jer 18:1-11: “The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Our God is compassionate and will change His stated action if Israel would only change her way.
Praise God for His compassion,
Bob Hill
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