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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 8/27/2001 8:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is a passage that I've used for evidence of free will.
quote:
I Corinthians 10
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
If God ordaines everything including the sins that Christians commit then he did not provide a way out for in what way can we thwart God's soverign will?
I've taken this one step further and argued an open future. If God knows that a christian will sin, their is no way for that christian to escape sin. What way is there that one can go against what is infallibly foreknown. If God KNOWS that the sin of a christian will come to pass, there is NO WAY that it will fail to come to pass contra 1 corinthians 10:13 which says that God will provide a way and that he is faithful to make sure that it is not beyond what we can handle.
What say ye?
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy
Edited by - geebob on 08/27/2001 7:43:31 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 8/27/2001 10:50 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree! How in the world can that passage not be considered false if God knows the future as completely settled or as unchangeable? The future must be made up in part as possibilities for that passage to be truthful.
Hey, are you at Huntington now? If so, are you up for some chinese anytime soon  ?
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
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Total Posts : 94
| Posted 8/27/2001 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | chinese sounds good but not till early september. Thats when I'll be in Huntington
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/29/2001 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God knows that a christian will sin, their is no way for that christian to escape sin. What way is there that one can go against what is infallibly foreknown.
Yes, I agree that God does foreknow, and foreordain all events, though he is not the source of sin.
Why would God make a way of escape if it is predetermined that we will not take it? But God has many purposes in mind in every situation, God has also commanded us to follow his ways, though he also knows that there will be transgressions of his commands. The reasons may be seen to some extent in Romans 9: "to show his mercy" (when we sin and repent), "to show his power" (if we don't repent).
But another related question seems to be raised here: how is it just if God makes a wey of escape and then preordains that we won't take it? How can moral responsibility be assigned then?
Open view theology doesn't solve this problem, either, though, it seems.
"If an event is predictable, how is there moral responsibility?"
But also, "if an event is unpredictable, how is there moral responsibility?" may also be asked. How do open view advocates view our choices? Are there reasons that show why we made those choices? then it seems the choices were not free, they were determined.
But if there are no reasons that show why we made a choice, then it seems we have to say it was unpredictable, i.e. random. But a random choice cannot easily be said to have moral responsibility...
So the problem is present for both sides, it seems, imputing moral responsibility is a difficult topic!
Blessings,
Lee
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"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 08/29/2001 11:58:05 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
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Total Posts : 94
| Posted 8/29/2001 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why would God make a way of escape if it is predetermined that we will not take it?
Ah, but this is my point. If God has predertimined that we will not take the escape route, I don't think that it is proper to call it an escape route at all. There is no way we can then escape sin as it has been ordained by God. That is contrary to what this verse says which is that there IS a WAY.
quote:
But another related question seems to be raised here: how is it just if God makes a wey of escape and then preordains that we won't take it? How can moral responsibility be assigned then?
and again, what He infallibly preordains, there is no way of escape.
now your question is relevent but whether this is answered or not still does not effect the issue with 1 Corinthians 10:12-13
I believe that this verse demands indeterminism and that there be more than one viable option if it is the case that Christians sin. Whether or not this succesfully establishes moral responsibility is not necessary to the problem for determinism that I've posed here.
but since your asking and it is related I'll answer best I can.
quote:
But also, "if an event is unpredictable, how is there moral responsibility?" may also be asked.
I just think that should've necessarily demands a could've. I don't think it makes sense any other way.
quote:
But if there are no reasons that show why we made a choice, then it seems we have to say it was unpredictable, i.e. random. But a random choice cannot easily be said to have moral responsibility...
This is a common fallacy about free will. A free action must be totally uninfluenced to be considered free. This is very unnecessary. A free action must not be guaranteed by anyone or thing prior to the decision of the agent it is attributed to. An influence or reason does not have to make the following action certain or an alternative way of looking at this is that the reason itself does not have to be guaranteed as there could be other prior reasons for the agent to go with which are also possible.
I wouldn't call this random because the term is assigned to reasonless events as you have implied. A free action could be arbitrary and this we could call random but not all free actions are random like this. All that is necessary is that some level of indeterminacy be present somewhere but it must be attributed to .
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 8/31/2001 10:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God has predertimined that we will not take the escape route, I don't think that it is proper to call it an escape route at all. There is no way we can then escape sin as it has been ordained by God.
But the existance of a way does not imply that it will possibly be taken, there may be other purposes intended.
1CO 14:21-22 In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers.
JN 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
But he still came and spoke to them, and performed the miracles, but for another purpose:
JN 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.
quote:
what He infallibly preordains, there is no way of escape.
Yes, that is what I believe. But here "way of escape" need not be read as "an option for us to choose in order to escape," as if the source of our choices is primarily in us.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.
quote:
A free action must be totally uninfluenced to be considered free.
No, that is not what I meant...
quote:
A free action must not be guaranteed by anyone or thing prior to the decision of the agent it is attributed to.
That is what I was addressing: if an action is because of some reasons (i.e. determined by them), then it is predictable, if it is not completely determined by any reasons, then is it not unpredictable?
So I would ask whether you consider free actions predictable or not, and proceed from there...
God bless you,
Lee
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"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 08/31/2001 3:22:27 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
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Total Posts : 94
| Posted 8/31/2001 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But the existance of a way does not imply that it will possibly be taken, there may be other purposes intended.
I just can't agree. A way for which there is no way to take is an oxymoron.
If God ordains that a Christian should sin, He wasn't faithful to keep it from becoming beyond what he could bear.
concerning the verses you quoted.
1 this is not about temptation
2 these are rebelious people. Those who are spoken to in 1 corinthians 10:13 are Christians who desire to listen to the Lord and please Him.
3Isaiah does have passages that declare that God has heardened hearts and made people blind BUT I think that after Isaiah complains about this in Chapter 63vs17 and on and I believe that God's answer in subsequent verses is that these people initially rejected God as he says in 65:2 "All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations."
So God in 65:12 "[destines them] for the sword, and [they] will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but [they] did not answer." He Destines them for the sword by Hardening them. But I don't believe that this is irrevocable. Hardening is not perfect and probably, those who come out of it can only do so by becoming very committed. So even there, even though this is something different from Corinthians 1013, I do not believe that the heardening of the heart perminantly bars them from God.
quote:
That is what I was addressing: if an action is because of some reasons (i.e. determined by them), then it is predictable, if it is not completely determined by any reasons, then is it not unpredictable?
If there is no other reason to choose otherwise, then I would say that it probably is predictable. When we are tempted though, we have "reason" to sin and without a mature history of resistance to sin, I do not think that we can predict with certainty that a Christian will not sin.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/2/2001 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
... without a mature history of resistance to sin, I do not think that we can predict with certainty that a Christian will not sin.
Then is the (unpredictable) choice essentially random? and if so, how is the will "free"? It would seem that a random will is no more free than a will controlled by another will, at least not in the sense that most people mean freedom. If I cannot tell why I made a decision, if there was no compelling reason, if I "just chose," then I am not really in control, it seems.
But back to 1 Cor. 10:13...
There is an initial unexpected twist here, I would have expected Paul to write, "a way out, so that you can escape." But he instead says, "so you can stand up under it," thus our conclusion about the intention God had in mind for "the way out" would probably be incorrect if we didn't have the rest of the verse to consider.
And the next verse is also in an unexpected direction:
1CO 10:14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
I would have expected him to say, "therefore, always look for and take the way out!" So here we are dealing with more than meets the eye initially, it seems.
Now how is it that believers give way under temptation? It does seem clear that it is not simply from the force of the temptation, this does clearly say that God will not allow his children to be overborne by the force of a temptation. But if we say that giving way to a temptation is a willful act on the part of a believer, then we have 1 John to contend with:
1JN 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
1JN 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins.
Which I think refers to just that willful sinning, the type described by the writer of the book of Hebrews:
HEB 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
But if every lapse of a child of God is a willful sin, then how can we escape such condemnation?
So I would say that there is more involved here than just the strength of the temptation and the choice of a person's will.
But does God have believer's sins in his plan?
LK 22:34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."
LK 22:32 "But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
Jesus prayed, not that Simon would not fail (that failure was apparently part of God's plan) but that his faith would not fail. Thus it seems that God can control, even plan, the failures of his children, and still support them, support their faith, and pray for them.
God bless you,
Lee
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"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/2/2001 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | I think I have an even better answer now!
What is the way of escape? not to exercise our will, for that just puts us in Romans 7:
RO 7:18 For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
The way of escape is in submission to God, to have his will instead of ours:
RO 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law [or rule] of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
RO 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
So this verse fits very well with the view of God's sovereignty, and need not involve the concept of man's free will at all, except (at most) in the aspect of choosing to be in submission to God...
God bless you,
Lee
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Wislawa
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 9/2/2001 5:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee, my main man, you sound almost like an open theist.
quote:
So this verse fits very well with the view of God's sovereignty, and need not involve the concept of man's free will at all, except (at most) in the aspect of choosing to be in submission to God...
The only trouble is that if you hold to EDF then it submitting to God's will sometimes means submitting to God's will for us to sin! since as you say...
quote:
I think I have an even better answer now!
What is the way of escape? not to exercise our will, for that just puts us in Romans 7:
RO 7:18 For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
The way of escape is in submission to God, to have his will instead of ours:
RO 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law [or rule] of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
RO 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
So this verse fits very well with the view of God's sovereignty, and need not involve the concept of man's free will at all, except (at most) in the aspect of choosing to be in submission to God...
Let's use a concrete example. Lets say i (sort of) slept with this cute girl Anka even though we weren't married (opps). Now lets suppose that chastity is God's sexual ethic (which its NOT!). then Anka and i sinned. But why didn't God give us a way out? Well he did sort of...since he eternally knew that we were going to sleep together there was nothing she or i could do to twart that foreknowledge. It must have been God's will for it to happen right? i mean if it wasn't his will then how could it have happened? so by sleeping together we fullfilled God's will, right? well i'm going to pat myself on the back for that one
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/2/2001 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Wislawa -- serving thoughts which are directed towards fleshly ambitions is slavery to sin, and can never be called God's will!
In reducing "will" to mere actions you make God pocket-sized. God "purposes" good for that child of his--his daughter Anka--did you bring good to her in Christ's name? ("Aslan is good, but He's not safe" the Faun says in Lewis' L, W & W.)
It was also not liberating--not a revolution for the Kingdom of God. Yankee-Imperialism maybe: what might seemed to you like freedom might look like taking-advantage to her or her parents, or her future. Sin destroys rationality.
I find the ideas below to be very helpful with regards to thoughts and sin: (from a chapter called "Neptic and Social Theology" (In "Orthodox Spirituality" by Met. Nafpaktos Hierotheos of Vlachos)
quote:
Watchfulness (nepsis) is attentiveness, spiritual alertness. Christ said to his disciples: "Watch and pray" (Matt. 26, 41). The Apostle Paul also instructs his disciple Timothy: "watch thou in all things" (2 Tim. 4, 5). Thus, watchfulness is spiritual attentiveness; it is the readiness of the nous not to accept any alluring thought. According to the holy Fathers, watchfulness (nepsis) is the presence of reason at the gateway of the heart, guarding against the entry of temptation and the creation of any precondition that might result in committing a sin. Watchfulness is closely related to prayer. According to St. Maximos the Confessor, watchfulness keeps the nous clear of any tempting suggestion, whereas prayer brings rich grace into one's heart. This is why watchfulness is also called the sentinel of the heart. Thus, watchfulness and prayer, in other words attentiveness and prayer are the two spiritual weapons which constitute "philosophy in Christ".
Practical philosophy, of which St. Maximos the Confessor speaks, is not theoretical speculation, but inner noetic work through which a person becomes a proper instrument of divine Revelation. It is in this way that man becomes a bearer of Revelation and knows God. The heart is freed from all thoughts-logismoi and retains only one utterance, -the unceasing prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner".
The heart does not accept any other "logismoi". Rejection of logismoi, does not mean, of course, that reason is severed from one's thoughts, but rather it is the deliverance of one's nous, i.e. his heart. This is how the heart is cleansed and through prayer receives much grace from God. This whole process is called noetic hesychia-hesychasm. Hesychasm is nothing else but the spiritual "method" through which the heart is cleansed so as to retain only the name of Christ within.
PotOnWheel
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Lee Merrill
booted
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/3/2001 2:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for your comments, Wislawa, here are some further thoughts in reply...
quote:
Now lets suppose that chastity is God's sexual ethic (which its NOT!).
Chastity is required behaviour (though I may be misunderstanding what you mean here).
EPH 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality...
quote:
... if it wasn't his will then how could it have happened? so by sleeping together we fullfilled God's will, right? well i'm going to pat myself on the back for that one
No, Peter's denial was part of God's plan (his will in that sense), but not part of God's ways (not his will in that sense).
LK 22:61 The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him...
He recognized that he had just done what Jesus said he would do...
LK 22:62 And he went outside and wept bitterly.
And he also recognized that it was a sin...
So God's plan may involve failure on the part of his children (I have to state all this very carefully), but this does not also mean that we therefore have his approval for these actions, or that there is no responsibility for the sins (yet another topic!)
And I would emphasize that "the way out" is the way of submission to God, not the way of exercising our will, of making a choice, in order to resist temptation.
EZE 11:19-20 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
So free will is not required, it seems to me, in order to interpret this verse.
Blessings,
Lee
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"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 09/03/2001 8:03:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/3/2001 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | The original question for this thread was about biblical proof of free will. I may have posted part of this before, but it seems to fit here as well. Its a section from a little book I wrote this summer that will be out next summer (either by Bethany or IVP).
The Bible and Freedom. The Bible uniformly confirms the point that people are created free. We find God giving people choices throughout the Bible. For example, God tells the Israelites in the Old Testament:
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways…then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed...I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...(Duet 30:12-19).
God gives the Israelites a choice to either choose life, which is loving him, or to choose death, which is rejecting him. God obviously longs for them to choose life, but it is ultimately up to them to decide. They are free.
Another example of the Lord placing choices before people, calling on them to choose to follow him, is found in Ezekial 18.
If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right…he shall surely live, says the Lord GOD….The person who sins shall die….But if the wicked turn away from all their sins…they shall surely live; they shall not die. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?… Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. (Ezek. 18:5,9, 20, 23, 31-32).
The Lord gives individuals the choice of embracing his ways or not. If they choose to follow him, they live. If not, they die. The Lord emphatically expresses his will in this passage: he doesn’t want anyone to perish. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He want everyone to embrace the life he offers them. But God created people free, for he wants their choice to follow him to come from their own heart, not from a pre-scripted blueprint. And this means that, with regard to any individual, God may not get his way regarding.
The Bible also reveals that people are free by depicting them as the originators of their own actions and as morally responsible for these actions. For example, Jesus’ taught that, "The good person out of the good treasure of the heart produces good, and the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil; for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks" (Lk 6:45). Similarly, Jesus taught that it was out of the person’s own heart that "evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, [and] slander" arise (Mt 15:19). These are not things that God desires or intentionally plans for his creation. They originate in a persons’ own heart.
The Bible uniformly depicts evil intentions and evil actions in this way. To give just a few illustrations, king Solomon is said to have done "what was evil in the sight of the LORD… because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel" (I Kgs 11:6, 9.) So too, king Rehoboam " did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the LORD" (2 Chron 12:14). Similarly, Zedekiah "did what was evil in the sight of the LORD" because "he stiffened his neck and hardened his heart against turning to the LORD, the God of Israel" (2 Chron 36:12-13). And the reason why Jerusalem had degenerated to such a low moral point during the time of Jeremiah, according to the Bible, was because God's people had "a stubborn and rebellious heart" and had "turned aside and gone away" (Jere 5:23). The Lord had been calling on them to "wash your heart clean of wickedness so that you may be saved." And he had asked them, " How long shall your evil schemes lodge within you? (Jere 4:14). But the people obstinately refused. In all these instances we see that evil originates not in God’s plan, but in "the heart" of people resisting God’s plan. As Jeremiah says, the evil is lodged within us.
The Frustration of God. The Bible also discloses that evil originates in free agents, not in God, by revealing that out of his love God is frequently frustrated by the way people obstinately resist his plans (e.g. Isa. 63:10 Acts 7:51; Heb. 3:8, 15; 4:7, cf. Eph. 4:30). Indeed, God’s heart breaks over people’s rebelliousness (e.g. Exod. 34:9; 33:3,5; Deut. 9:6, 13; 10:16; 31:27; Judges 2:19; 2 Kings 17:14; 2 Chron. 30:8; 36:13; Ne 9:16; Isa. 46:12; 48:4; Jer. 7:26; Hos. 4:16). The pain of God’s heart over human rebellion is clearly revealed in Jesus when Jesus’ laments over Jerusalem.
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Christ, who is our picture of God, earnestly longs for everyone in the city of Jerusalem to come to him and receive the life he has to offer. But, even though he was the Son of God, whether they did so or not was not up to him: it is up to them. In a creation populated with free agents, God doesn’t always get what he wants. Augustine and the church tradition that followed him were simply mistaken when they insisted that "the will of the omnipotent is always undefeated." Because God desires a creation in which love is possible, he allows for a creation in which his will can be defeated.
The Bible is explicit in stating that people can and do thwart God’s will. The lawyers and Sadducees of Jesus’ day"rejected God’s purpose for themselves" (Lk 7:30) by refusing the ministry of John the Baptist. How can anyone maintain that God’s purposes are never thwarted in the light of this passage? Even more explicit is the message of Isaiah to the children of Israel:
Oh, rebellious children, says the LORD,
who carry out a plan, but not mine;
who make an alliance, but against my will,
adding sin to sin. (Is. 30:1)
Because they were free agents, the Israelites had the power to accept or reject God’s will for them. Their rebellion was not part of a divine blueprint. They were not fulfilling God’s sovereign will by rebelling against him. They were rebelling precisely because they were rejecting God’s sovereign will.
No where is this more evident than in the salvation and damnation of people. As we saw above, the Bible teaches that God desires every person to accept his love and be saved (e.g. 1 Tim 2:4, 4:10; 2 Pet 3:9; cf. Ezek 18:23, 32; 33:11). Yet, the Bible also makes it clear that many people refuse this. Even though Jesus died "for the sins of the whole world" (I Jn 2:2), and even though God is always working in people’s hearts to influence them to accept him, some people "love darkness rather than light" (Jn 3:19). Because people must be free if love is to be genuine, they have the capacity to thwart God’s will and bring destruction upon themselves.
When people refuse God’s plan for their lives, it is not because their destruction fits into God’s mysterious blueprint for creation. To the contrary, throughout their lives God tries to save them – which is why he is frustrated with their obstinance. "All day long," the Lord says, "I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people" (Rom 10:21). God truly grieves when the people he loves and tries to influence to come into his eternal kingdom choose to resist him.
Angelic Freedom. Acknowledging that humans have free will explains much, but not all, of the evil in the world. To fully account for the tragically war-torn nature of this creation we need to understand that God created angels as free agents as well. While the Bible provides us with few details about God’s dealings with angels, we are told that certain angels rebelled against God in the past and continue to resist his will in the present (Mt 25:41; Jn 8:44; Eph 6:12; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:6; Rev 12:7-8). This alone is enough to teach us that angels are free, for it is impossible to conceive of a being lacking freedom choosing to go against the desires of its Creator.
The Bible teaches us that the head of the angelic rebellion is a very powerful being named Satan, meaning "the adversary." The scope of Satan’s power is reflected by the fact that Jesus calls Satan "the prince" of this present age three times (Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). The term "prince" (archôn) was used in secular contexts to denote the highest official in a city or region. Hence, Jesus acknowledged that Satan is the highest power of this present fallen world, at least in terms of his present influence.
When Satan tempts Jesus by offering him all "authority" over "all the kingdoms of this world," Jesus does not dispute his claim that this was his to offer (Luke 4:5–6). He simply refuses to given to Satan’s demand that he worship him in order to get these kingdoms. Other passages in the Bible explicitly teach that the whole world is "under the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19), for Satan is "the god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4) and "the ruler of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2). The explanation for why God’s creation looks like a war zone is because, according to the Bible, it is a war zone! Far from following a meticulous divine blueprint, the creation is now governed by a powerful being who resists God’s purposes at every turn.
The Bible depicts this evil "prince" as the leader of a unified and pervasive army of spiritual powers and demons. Satan is thus called "the ruler of demons" (Mt 9:34) and fallen angels are called "his angels" (Mt 25:41). Jesus appeals to the unity of this army under Satan when he refutes the Pharisees’ contention that he exorcises demons by the power of Satan rather than the power of God. If this were so, Jesus argued, Satan’s kingdom would be working against itself (Mk 3:24) and could not exhibit the power it exhibits in this world. The fact is that Satan’s kingdom occupies this planet because it is united.
Along the same lines, Jesus taught that those who wish to make headway in tearing down this evil empire and in taking back the "property" of this "kingdom" must first tie up "the strong man" who oversees the whole operation (Mk 3:27). This could only be done when "one stronger than he [viz. Jesus] attacks him and overpowers him" and thus "takes away his armor in which he trusted" (Luke 11:22). This, in a nutshell, was what Jesus understood himself to be doing by his teachings, healings, exorcisms and especially by his death and resurrection. His whole ministry was about overpowering the "fully armed" strong man who guarded "his property" (Luke 11:21)—the earth and its inhabitants who rightfully belong to God. Jesus tied up the strong man so that he (and later, his Church) could pillage his kingdom. He came to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8, cf. Heb. 2:14) and establish the earth as God’s domain. He came to set the world free from the oppression of its evil "prince."
The Role of the Church. Jesus taught that the kingdom of God was like a mustard seed. It is among the smallest of all seeds when it is planted, but it eventually grows to become the largest shrub in the garden (Matt 13:31-32 ). The point of this teaching is this: though Jesus in principle defeated Satan and re-established the kingdom of God on the earth, the earth doesn’t automatically revert back to the way God intended it to be. The seed has been planted, but it needs to grow. The "strong man" has been tied up," but now his troops need to "pillage the house." As we said earlier, because God’s goal is love, he always works through mediaries who must out of love choose to cooperate with his plans.
This is why Jesus established the Church. God’s goal is for humans to recover their rightful place as God’s viceroys who "subdue" and "have dominion" over the earth. The original parents surrendered this authority over to Satan, but now, through Jesus, God is giving it back to us. This is why Jesus’ first teaching about the Church in the Gospels was that "the gates of Hades [hell] will not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18). Jesus was saying that God wants those who follow him – the Church -- to be expanding the kingdom of God, and his promise is that the kingdom of Satan will not be able to withstand this expansion. He empowers all who believe in him to once again "have dominion" over the earth by vanquishing all forces that oppose God’s will.
In Jesus’ plan, therefore, the Church is to be his vehicle for finishing off the work Jesus began. They cannot do this on their own, of course. Jesus himself is present in them and with them to accomplish this task. This is why the Church is called, quite literally, "the body of Christ" (Rom 12:4-5; I Cor 12:12-27; Eph 1:23; 4:4; 5:23). But this doesn’t negate the fact that those who follow Christ have a important choices to make in how they live. As it was in the beginning, God wants to rule through mediators who freely choose to cooperate with and apply his will upon the earth. God’s will is that through his disciples -- the Church -- he would confront "the gates of Hades" and take back from his arch enemy what rightfully belongs to him and the people he has authorized to rule.
The "gates of Hades" represents everything that resists God’s loving will for the earth. When people believe lies, the Church is to storm the gates of Hades by proclaiming truth. Where people are treated as worthless, the Church is to break through the gates of Hades by proclaiming the truth that God created all people to have infinite value. Where people are oppressed by poverty, the Church is to proclaim and work for justice. Where people are physically afflicted, the Church is to proclaim and practice healing, just as Jesus did. Where people are oppressed by demonic powers, the Church is to proclaim and practice deliverance, just as Jesus did. Where people are separated by racism, the Church is to work to manifest the one new humanity Jesus died to create (Eph 2:14). All these things constitute the "gates of Hades" which the Church is to be overthrowing.
The Lord’s Prayer. The heartbeat of the Church is reflected in the way Jesus taught us to pray. We are to pray that the Father’s will would be done "on earth as it is in heaven" (Matt 6:10). This prayer, and all the activity Christians are to be involved in to expand the kingdom of God, presupposes that the Father’s will is not yet being done "on earth as it is in heaven." God’s will "in heaven" is being resisted by spiritual forces and by people who don’t want it accomplished "on earth."
Herein lies the greatest tragedy of the "blueprint worldview." So long as people believe that all that happens "on earth" is already somehow part of God’s "secret plan," they will not with passion and urgency work to establish God’s will "on earth as it is in heaven." Rather, as much of the popular piety of Christians reveals, they will rather work to resign themselves to all that happens "as coming from a Father’s hand." The very things that Jesus revolted against as coming from Satan’s hand many Christians now accept as coming from God’s hand!
This misguided blueprint theology tarnishes the character of God and infects the Church with a spirit of resignation that undermines her mission. It trades the real problem of evil which the church is called to solve for an illegitimate intellectual problem of evil which can never be solved. When we understand that God created humans and angels free and why he did so, we no longer have an unsolvable intellectual problem on our hands, and we are motivated to confront rather than accept the evils in the world. If it is true, as the Bible says, that "the whole world lies under the power of the evil one" (1 Jn 5:19), it is not surprising that the world is full of evil. But if it is also true, as the Bible says, that Jesus has in principle defeated this enemy of God and has empowered us to be "his body," then there are things we can and must do about the evil in the world.
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To my way of thinking, nothing could be clearer from Scripture, from Logic, and from Experience than the fact that people are to some extent self-determining, and are morally responsible for what they do only because of this fact.
Blessings
Doc
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Wislawa
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| Posted 9/4/2001 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee, first of all sexual imoratity is immoral because it is unfaithful not because it is unchast (see the "is chatity even thaught in the bible" thread)
but secondly and more relevent for this thread, you can't make a distiction between God's plan and his will. His plan is as it is because God willed it to be such. as such it was God's will for everything to happen the way he plans it, including all of the sin i may or may not have commited. The problem is that the way out in submitting to God simply isn't a part of his plan, right? if it was then i would have no choice but to submit to his plan/will. since it wasn't it is ultimatly his plan that i not submit to his will.
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
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geebob
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| Posted 9/6/2001 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee, When I get a chance, I'll respond but I'll probably post only one more time for the present for the the reasons I've explained in a thread entitled, "Hi and goodbye, going on sabbatical from tol."
It's been a pleasure dialoging with you for the little bit that we've done.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 9/6/2001 8:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Geebob: When you're Hunington, give my regards to John Sanders. And you know, the internet goes all the way down there. You can stay in contact if you wish. We'd love to have you.
Blessings
Doc
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 9/7/2001 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, that would be good if you could stop in and comment some more! Best wishes on your sabbatical, I appreciate your comments, and the opportunity to discuss these issues with you all, too.
God bless you,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 9/7/2001 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Found some time to comment further (or took some time, it's 12:30 AM!)
quote:
"Now choose life" God obviously longs for them to choose life, but it is ultimately up to them to decide. They are free.
But without God's power, we are powerless even to choose:
RO 7:14-15 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
quote:
"... get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!" God created people free, for he wants their choice to follow him ...
But afterwards, God says:
EZE 36:26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you."
But I would quote C.S. Lewis here: "In one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which we turn to God and say, 'You must do this, I can't.' " (from "Christian Behaviour")
PS 51:10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
quote:
Jesus taught that it was out of the person’s own heart that "evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, [and] slander" arise (Mt 15:19). These are not things that God desires or intentionally plans for his creation. They originate in a persons’ own heart.
Yes, they do, I would agree, this is a reason that we are responsible.
quote:
"How often have I desired to gather your children together..." In a creation populated with free agents, God doesn’t always get what he wants.
But Jesus certainly knew that the Jewish nation, and especially Jerusalem, would not come to him, this was predicted in Daniel:
DA 9:26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
So his disappointment would not have been that of frustration, but of sorrow over the pain, though he knew it was predicted.
LK 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come..."
quote:
"Oh, rebellious children, says the LORD, who carry out a plan, but not mine" (Isa. 30:1). Because they were free agents, the Israelites had the power to accept or reject God’s will for them. Their rebellion was not part of a divine blueprint.
But it was, though, it seems:
ISA 30:16 You said, 'No, we will flee on horses.' Therefore you will flee! You said, 'We will ride off on swift horses.' Therefore your pursuers will be swift!
God had their plan, even their rebelliousness, in his predictions, and thus in his plan in that sense. And he also predicts their restoration:
ISA 30:20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them.
quote:
"I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people" (Rom 10:21). God truly grieves when the people he loves and tries to influence to come into his eternal kingdom choose to resist him.
But Paul also says:
RO 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
RO 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Paul seems to be quoting Scripture here to show that God is in control, even here.
RO 11:8 As it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
quote:
The explanation for why God’s creation looks like a war zone is because, according to the Bible, it is a war zone! Far from following a meticulous divine blueprint, the creation is now governed by a powerful being who resists God’s purposes at every turn.
He does, but he also just does God's purpose:
JOB 1:11 "But stretch out your hand..." (Satan)
JOB 1:12 "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands." (the Lord)
JOB 2:5 "But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh..." (Satan)
JOB 2:6 The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands."
JOB 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job .
JOB 42:11 All his brothers and sisters ... comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him.
2SA 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."
1CH 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.
"God, though He cannot tempt any man (Jas 1:13), is frequently described in Scripture as doing what He merely permits to be done (Ex 7:13 1Sa 26:19 2Sa 16:10 Ps 105:25 Isa 7:17)." (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown commentary)
quote:
He came to "destroy the works of the devil"
Yes, but this seems to imply that the devil cannot make any headway against God, though he will certainly try to, he will always fail.
ISA 14:20 The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.
quote:
We are to pray that the Father’s will would be done "on earth as it is in heaven" (Matt 6:10). This prayer, and all the activity Christians are to be involved in to expand the kingdom of God, presupposes that the Father’s will is not yet being done "on earth as it is in heaven."
But we may interpret this to say "in the manner that your will is done in heaven" (i.e. willingly), "may it be done on earth." People are rebellious on earth, and thus God's will being carried out involves pain, when there is no more rebellion, there will be no more pain, but still, on heaven or on earth, God's will is done.
MT 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
quote:
Herein lies the greatest tragedy of the "blueprint worldview." So long as people believe that all that happens "on earth" is already somehow part of God’s "secret plan," they will not with passion and urgency work to establish God’s will "on earth as it is in heaven."
I would disagree, though, security in God's plan is a good motivation for doing good, the exhortations in the Epistles come after the doctrinal statements:
HEB 12:28-13:2 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire." Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers.
quote:
people are to some extent self-determining, and are morally responsible for what they do only because of this fact.
No, I would say it is because of the fact that you have mentioned previously, that the evil comes from our heart. On a smaller scale, we knock down a termite mound because of the termites in it, if the heart has evil in it, that means it has to be dealt with, to be cleaned up.
And from Wislawa's comments:
quote:
you can't make a distinction between God's plan and his will.
That would be fine, but even though pain is part of God's plan (Jer. 9:7), God does not afflict willingly (Lam. 3:33).
quote:
The problem is that the way out in submitting to God simply isn't a part of his plan, right?
We don't hold the author responsible, though, for the actions of his characters in a play. Those characters are still the ones we assign responsibility to (perhaps this shows on a smaller scale, how responsibility can be assigned even to determined actions?). We speak of the madness of this character, the nobility of that one, the treachery of another, as if they were the ones responsible. In any case, though sin is predicted, responsibility is also there (Jude 1:4).
God bless you,
Lee
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/8/2001 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:
Elsewhere I brought in the Cappadocean's category of "Person" (hypostasis), where "personal" characteristics supersede those of "essence" and of "action/energy." I think Doc gave that a yes. I think. With that in mind I have to offer a disagreement to something: quote:
you can't make a distinction between God's plan and his will. His plan is as it is because God willed it to be such. As such it was God's will for everything to happen the way he plans it, including all of the sin I may or may not have committed. The problem is that the way out in submitting to God simply isn't a part of his plan, right? if it was then i would have no choice but to submit to his plan/will. since it wasn't it is ultimately his plan that i not submit to his will. -Wislawa
Lee, you said "That would be fine, but even though pain is part of God's plan (Jer. 9:7), God does not afflict willingly." -- which I won't disagree with in general. Notice that you distinguish between will ("willingly") and action ("afflict")
But I disagree with what Wislawa said: "you can't make a distinction between God's plan and his will." And I do so because will -- I believe -- is with regard to person, while the "plan" is an action.
It seems to me that God can change his plan without changing his will. And the Biblical narrative, I think, bears this out.
(I have been becoming convinced that this very distinction, or lack, is at the heart of the OV / EDF argument.)
PotOnWheel
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 9/8/2001 1:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Notice that you distinguish between will ("willingly") and action ("afflict")
Oops, no, I should have been clearer, I meant by "willingly" God's nature, God's "feelings," even (it's difficult to pick the precise words here), i.e. he does not take pleasure in afflicting; versus his will and his action "to afflict." Just as a good parent will discipline their child "unwillingly," with regard to the feelings that this evokes, but "on purpose," with regard to the will.
quote:
But I disagree with what Wislawa said: "you can't make a distinction between God's plan and his will." And I do so because will -- I believe -- is with regard to person, while the "plan" is an action.
But "to make a plan" is the operation of the will, yes, these are not identical concepts, but there is a connection, it seems to me.
quote:
It seems to me that God can change his plan without changing his will.
I would put that a bit differently, to say that God can change his response, without changing either his plan or his will...
Blessings,
Lee
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/8/2001 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee, I I like how you said it:
". . .that God can change his response, without changing either his plan or his will..."
For fun, let me add someone elses term, as a third--for us to keep straight (which is always difficult for me): "purpose" -- something to hold opposite "plan."
Well, what you said was fine. I'll leave it at that.
PotOnWheel
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geebob
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 9/8/2001 10:17 PM (GMT -6) | | You are very welcoming Doc but the matter is not over internet access but keeping up with grades. When I participate on theology forums, most of which was on theologyonline, I spend too much time on them as I am a slow thinker, reader, and writer. I'll be certain to tell Dr. Sander's you said ahoy hoi.
I talked to him about this verse as well but he wasn't all that impressed. But I was mainly pushing the connection with the future as opposed to free will and as you no doubt know, he is hesitant to embrace the logical arguement for the future from free will which my topic, i believe cashes in on.
Now I'm familiar with some of the verses you posted and I think they're excellent evidences for free will but I think I could imagine the compatabilist answering those even though you or I would not find them satisfactory. I suspected that corinthians 10:13 is a stickier wicket and I suspect it still may be.
Lee, I'll comment on a couple of things.
quote:
quote:
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... without a mature history of resistance to sin, I do not think that we can predict with certainty that a Christian will not sin.
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Then is the (unpredictable) choice essentially random? and if so, how is the will "free"? It would seem that a random will is no more free than a will controlled by another will, at least not in the sense that most people mean freedom.
This doesn't make it random because I think that the term random is essentially a description of undetermined nonrational events. The free choices we make arise from concious desire and reasoning. A free choice MUST originate with the person it is attributed to and that requires that nothing beforehand guarantees it. As a creature becomes more mature with regard to normative behavior, the moral choices he makes are more predictable, but I would still say that they are free because they originate within the agent that was ultamitly undetermined.
quote:
There is an initial unexpected twist here, I would have expected Paul to write, "a way out, so that you can escape." But he instead says, "so you can stand up under it," thus our conclusion about the intention God had in mind for "the way out" would probably be incorrect if we didn't have the rest of the verse to consider.
I have to think that standing up under it is escaping it and avoiding sin.
quote:
1CO 10:14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
I would have expected him to say, "therefore, always look for and take the way out!" So here we are dealing with more than meets the eye initially, it seems.
I think that it borders on the explicit that we are to take the way out. We are to flee! Flee to what? the way out. Flee Idolatry (implicitly: because as I said, God will provide a way out.)
quote:
But if we say that giving way to a temptation is a willful act on the part of a believer, then we have 1 John to contend with
alright. I can't say that I know what to do with these passages in john because I believe that christians do sin and I think that the bible even implies this since Jesus' words towards one of the churches whom he adresses in revelations is "Stop sinning!" also in 1 corinthians 5 their is the sexually immoral man whom paul tells the church to hand over to satan so that his sinful nature may be destroyed.
and of course in the 1 john we have 1 john 2:1 we have " My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
quote:
Which I think refers to just that willful sinning, the type described by the writer of the book of Hebrews:
My roomate, who is a calvinist, thinks that the notion of sin that is not willful is unintelligible and really, all sin is willful sin. I'm very sympathetic with that. I don't think that Hebrews is simply refering to sin that we willfully commit, which is in fact probably all sin.
I've heard that one explanation is that the sin referred to here is specifically, the sin of returning to the sacrifical system, which was relevant to the context of the whole book. I have my doubts about that take on the verse so I think that what this is referring to is the person who thinks it is okay to continual sin since christ will forgive the sin and all he has to do is repent. I think that it is the person who continually sins or as hebrews says, "goes on" willfully sinning that is referred to here. He recieves the knowledge of the truth but sins perhaps with the expectation of being forgivin which makes his sin, in a sense, okay, so he thinks. I think this is echoed somewhere in the law but I couldn't find the verse. It was something like "if someone entices you to worship other gods under the notion that you may sacrice to me for forgiveness after the fact, there is no sacrifce in such a case and I will never forgive that man."
quote:
But does God have believer's sins in his plan?
LK 22:34 Jesus answered...
I am sympathetic with the view that this was a conditional propehcy. Even Calvinists admit to conditional prophecies but only in the case where what God said would happen didn't happen after instances such as God's messege to the ninevites and his his announcement of death for hezekiah. Now why assume that it is only the prophecies that do not come to pass as stated are conditional. There is good reason to believe that some prophecies in which did come to pass where in fact conditional and it is reasonable to assume that Jesus' prediction of peter's denials where also conditional and peter did not respond in the right way. He didn't say "forgive me Lord, what must I do to prevent this." He instead denied what Jesus was telling him about the state of his heart and refused the way out. But even if you insist that it was a forgone conclusion at this point that peter would sin, It could still be the case that Jesus' statement was indicative that peter had already rejected the way out since he was called satan just a while ago.
And furthermore, I think that it is very likely that it is the case that the way out referred to in 1 corinthains 10:13 involves the holy spirit which peter did not have access to.
Now you were using this passage to show that God can use the sins of believers. He can but that is because he is resourceful. Just because God uses our sins doesn't mean that He gaurantees that they will happen.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 9/9/2001 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee says: We don't hold the author responsible, though, for the actions of his characters in a play. Those characters are still the ones we assign responsibility to (perhaps this shows on a smaller scale, how responsibility can be assigned even to determined actions?). We speak of the madness of this character, the nobility of that one, the treachery of another, as if they were the ones responsible.
Doc: Aghhh, my friend, but with your "as if" you take back the point you were trying to make. We enter into the fiction of a novel by pretending that these people are not merely characters written by an author, but have (so we imagine) a life of their own. In reality, nobody holds the characters of novels responsible, precisely because we know they don't have any self-determination. If a murderous character could somehow jump out of the novel and murder me, everybody would blame the author of the character, not the character himself.
Doc
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 9/9/2001 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: "Then is the (unpredictable) choice essentially random? and if so, how is the will 'free'? It would seem that a random will is no more free than a will controlled by another will, at least not in the sense that most people mean freedom. "
This doesn't make it random because I think that the term random is essentially a description of undetermined nonrational events.
Good point! And I just realized that my argument also applies to God's decisions, to any decisions, thus no moral responsibility can be assigned anywhere based on what I just said.
quote:
Lee: "There is an initial unexpected twist here, I would have expected Paul to write, 'a way out, so that you can escape.' But he instead says, 'so you can stand up under it' ... I have to think that standing up under it is escaping it and avoiding sin.
Maybe, in a sense, but escape to me gives more the impression of "getting away from it," not just holding it up like Atlas underneath the world.
quote:
Lee: "1CO 10:14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
I would have expected him to say, 'therefore, always look for and take the way out!' ..." I think that it borders on the explicit that we are to take the way out. We are to flee! Flee to what? the way out. Flee Idolatry (implicitly: because as I said, God will provide a way out.)
Good point! I wasn't thinking clearly.
quote:
I think that it is the person who continually sins or as Hebrews says, "goes on" willfully sinning that is referred to here.
I agree!
quote:
I think this is echoed somewhere in the law ...
Found it! This probably is the passage you had in mind, which does seem to bear our what you said:
DT 29:19-20 When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, "I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way." This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. The Lord will never be willing to forgive him.
quote:
Lee: "But does God have believer's sins in his plan? LK 22:34 Jesus answered..." I am sympathetic with the view that this was a conditional prophecy.
This is surprising to me, I had not heard this interpretation of this passage before.
MT 26:34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."
Jesus only uses this formula "I tell you the truth," or "Amen, amen," for statements that are very sure, as far as I know. So it does still seem to me that God can use believers' sins as part of his plan, even predicting them, to show that he is still in loving control:
JN 13:38-14:1 Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times! Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
quote:
Lee: "We don't hold the author responsible, though, for the actions of his characters in a play." ... In reality, nobody holds the characters of novels responsible, precisely because we know they don't have any self-determination.
I should think more before I write...
"Sometimes I think, and sometimes I just think I think." I think...
Blessings,
Lee
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 09/09/2001 6:29:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 9/12/2001 11:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jesus only uses this formula "I tell you the truth," or "Amen, amen," for statements that are very sure, as far as I know.
I thought I may have allowed for the possibility that it was guaranteed at the moment of Jesus prediction but I was probably too subtle. A few days before, Jesus told peter "get behind me satan, you have things of men in mind and not God." I don't think that free will and moral responsiblility requires indeterminacy at every turn. The important thing is that the guaranteeing source of the choice ultimatly points to the agent it is attributed to and specifically wrong attitudes that should've been delt with in the past. It could have been the case that on that night, peter did not have the strength of character to make a turn around that would guarantee his his allegence through the utter humiliation that was to follow. Now did God provide away out for peter? The answer under this view is yes, but he did not take it in time and by that night it may have been to late.
Still though, even with the passage you quoted from mark There is still plenty of room to argue that in an immeadiate moment before Jesus prediction peter could've turned it around because Jesus predicted that ALL of his disciples would betray him and then peter gave the wrong response. It was after this that Jesus said "I tell you the truth..." Had peter said otherwise, such as "my lord, how can I prevent this?" then I doubt Jesus would've maid his prediction.
quote:
So it does still seem to me that God can use believers' sins as part of his plan, even predicting them, to show that he is still in loving control
I have little problem with that. Sure God accomodated his plans to Peters weakness and he used the weakness effectivly. He did control the situation and He did it well but I don't think he exhaustivly controlloed the situation such that He Himself guaranteed Peter's denials.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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