 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Foreknowledge of a Christmas prophecy? | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/15/2003 5:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
to be continued
Isaiah 21:2
Isaiah 41:2
Isaiah 44:28
Isaiah 45:1-4
Isaiah 45:13
Isaiah 46:11
Isaiah 48:14,15
Nooo! Stop! I can't take anymore. 
Good stuff bro. The only thing I would change about what Laika has posted recently is his repeated use of "Here's the prophecies about...." It's not "Here is prophecies," it's "Here ARE the prophecies..."! 
Say hi to your wife in Japanese for me. 
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/16/2003 1:47 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/16/2003 2:01 AM (GMT -6) | | The prophecies of Isaiah concerning Cyrus,
Isaiah 21:2 A harsh vision has been shown to me;
The treacherous one still deals treacherously, and the destroyer still destroys.
Go up, Elam, lay siege, Media;
I have made an end of all the groaning she has caused.
God knows beforehand that the Medes will lay seige to Babylon. Is it passive knowlege of an already settled future OR does it sound like God stating what He is going to do, in the future (Isaiah 48:3)?
"Go up" uses the imperative form of the verb. In English, verbs don't change their form for the imperative and whether they are imperative or not depends on the context. "I talk" is not imperative, "Talk!" is imperative. In other languages, Japanese for example, verbs have their own imperative form. "I talk" would be "hanasu", "Talk!" would be "hanase". "I go" would be "iku", "GO!" would be "ike!".
The context of "Go up, Elam" is imperative. It's not incredible that God has decided that He's going to command the Medes one thing in the future, to lay seige to Babylon.
Had Elam ever taken Babylon before?
http://www.bartleby.com/67/122.html
"Around 1160, Shutruk-nahhunte invaded Mesopotamia and took Babylon."
1160 B.C. would have been before Isaiah's prophecy. God had these facts available to Him.
But wait, were sieges unknown when Isaiah made this prophecy?
"Siege"
1. The surrounding and blockading of a city, town, or fortress by an army attempting to capture it.
Was the technique of "surrounding and blockading" of a city in order to capture it, an unknown technique when Isaiah made his prophecy? Is this a showstopper?
http://www.skalman.nu/history/books-review-ancientsiege.htm
"This book covers the history of siege warfare in the Near East and Europe from the Neolithic period through the early Roman Empire."
The Neolithic period predates the time Isaiah wrote this prophecy so the technique of the siege was past knowlege to God.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
|
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/16/2003 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | The prophecies of Isaiah concerning Cyrus
Isaiah 44:28
"It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd!
And he will perform all My desire.'
And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,'
And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'"
Ah, this is the killer, the singular proof that will show God has passive, comprehensive knowlege of an already settled future. God knows Cyrus by name. This is hundreds of years before Cyrus lived and GOD KNOWS HIS NAME.
1. Who will this Cyrus be? God's chosen servant. "He is my shepherd", "He will perform all My desire", 'He will declare that Jerusalem be built'.
Cyrus is a special case. Raise your hand if God has called on you to invade cities, capture their populations and take them into exile. <looks around for raised hands>
Anyone here been called on by God to have Jerusalem (not just ANY city) rebuilt? <looks around, no raised hands>
Maybe, just maybe, God's special case of Cyrus doesn't apply to your or my mundane life.
2. Has God ever namechecked anyone else in scripture?
Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."
God passively knows that in the future they'll name the child that?
Matthew 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
God is commanding Joseph to name the boy 'Jesus'. God, acting in time to fulfill a prophecy?
Matthew 1:22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."
I see, thanks, Matthew. It was God acting in time to name the child what He had declared in the past. Just like Isaiah 48:3 says
"I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."
So is this how God knew Cyrus' name long before Cyrus was born? As valid an explanation (if not more) than God passively knowing an already settled future.
Recap:
1. Cyrus was a special servant
2. There's another example of God commanding a child be named in order to fulfill a prophecy
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
|
Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/16/2003 3:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
The prophecies of Isaiah concerning Cyrus
Isaiah 41:2
"Who has aroused one from the east
Whom He calls in righteousness to His feet?
He delivers up nations before him
And subdues kings.
He makes them like dust with his sword,
As the wind-driven chaff with his bow."
More of God's action verbs. God arousing, God calling, God delivering, God subduing, God making dust, God making chaff.
Is it incredible that God knows what He's decided to do at a point in time in the future?
Is it incredible that you know what you've decided to do at a point in time in the future?
Is it incredible that I know what I've decided to do at a point in time in the future?
Are all three proof that God and you and I have passive knowlege of an already settled future?
The difference being, God has the power to fulfill His decisions 100% of the time.
"aroused one from the east", Does God know He's going to use the Medes from the east of Babylon to lay siege to Babylon?
I want to understand what you are saying. Do I understand you correctly if I say the following: God is not an observer who has passive power to know how the future will unfold even though the future does not yet exist. Instead, however much God knows what will take place in the future he knows because he has purposed and planned it.
Am I tracking properly with you?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/16/2003 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
I want to understand what you are saying. Do I understand you correctly if I say the following: God is not an observer who has passive power to know how the future will unfold even though the future does not yet exist.
Yes.
quote:
Instead, however much God knows what will take place in the future he knows because he has purposed and planned it.
No. Er, yes. God knows what He will do.
We've been challenged to explain some prophecies from the O.T.
I've looked at Israel's 400 year exile in Egypt and a bunch of verses in Isaiah. Now I'm looking at a bunch of Isaiah verses that supposedly pertain to Cyrus.
The questioner believes the future is so settled that it is factual and thus God can passively know it comprehensively.
I (we) believe the future hasn't happened yet, that's why it's called "the future". The future doesn't exist as facts, thus it cannot be known by anyone, even God. God cannot know the future choices of free-moral agents. He can know all possibilities but not the actualities because the free-moral agents create the actualities.
God can know what He's going to do in the future. That's what Isaiah 48:3 is about. But again, it's not passive knowlege, it's knowlege of what He will do when the time comes.
We are not classic determinists, we are not classic arminians, we are Open Theists. I abandoned classic arminianism 20+ years ago based on it's inconsistencies with scripture and logic.
Welcome to CVM.
If you have a question, please start a new thread, I'd like to anally continue on my quixotic quest of explaining all the Isaiah verses that pertain to Cyrus.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/16/2003 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Gerry: I want to understand what you are saying. Do I understand you correctly if I say the following: God is not an observer who has passive power to know how the future will unfold even though the future does not yet exist. Instead, however much God knows what will take place in the future he knows because he has purposed and planned it.
Tom: It might help to clarify that while God certainly foreknows what he unconditionally intends to do, his foreknowledge of certainties would not be limited to this, for God would also foreknow whatever follows necessarily from factors or events that exist at the present moment (which would qualify I suppose as passive knowledge of the future—if by passive you mean other than “actively and unconditionally determined”). And we ought to keep in mind that what God determines to bring about unconditionally may be determined before creation (for example, the decision to create at all, the decision to create the kind of world he decided upon, presumably the decision to incarnate, etc.) or may be determined by him at a later date (the decision to name and choose Cyrus, for example, need not have been determined before creation; it may have been determined in response to the situation at hand). Just because God knows a future event by virtue of determining it doesn’t meant God determined it in eternity is my point. Also, God’s knowledge of future certainties is not limited to knowledge of what he intends to bring about. It would include all that follows necessarily from the present moment.
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
|
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/17/2003 3:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Prophecies of Isaiah concerning Cyrus
Isaiah 45:1 Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:"
<-- God anointed Cyrus. God took him by the hand. Does God know what He has decided to do in the future? "Anointing", "taking" aren't verbs of observation, but of determined action. Even we have this kind of knowlege of the future, the difference being we have less ability to guarantee success. -->
2 "I will go before you and make the rough places smooth;
I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars."
<-- "shatter doors of bronze", "cut through iron bars", generic, poetic battle claims. Does God know what kind of fortifications Babylon have at the time Isaiah wrote this? Elam had invaded Babylon in 1160 B.C., hundreds of years before this prophecy. Babylons' defenses were probably not only well known to God but to others as well at this time. Again, why the necessity to believe in an already settled future? -->
3 "I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
<-- generic, literary -->
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name."
4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me."
The only showstopper in this passage is that God knows Cyrus' name hundreds of years before Cyrus is born. Proof of an already settled future, so settled it exists NOW as facts and God passively knows these facts?
1. Jesus was named in the O.T. In the N.T. God ordered Joseph to name the boy Jesus "in order to fulfill prophecy". So we have one explanation of how God knows someone's name hundreds of years before birth, by fulfilling the prophecy retroactively.
God also had Cyrus named at birth in order to fulfill prophecy retroactively.
2. Cyrus, like Jesus, was appointed a special task. This is not passive knowlege of an already settled future but God making a decision and then having the power to carry it out at the proper time. Isaiah 48:3
If God knew you by name billions and billions of years ago, where in scripture is the prophecy for this? Not there? The two examples we have deal with prophecy, where's your proof that that kind of prior naming exists sans prophecy?
3. If the future is settled already, existing as present facts, could God's enemies know these facts? Could this info be fed to false prophets? Could the false prophets even guess a future event accurately? How would God disprove a false prophet? I believe the future doesn't exist yet, that when God challenges the false prophets to predict what's going to happen, He's showing them that whatever they predict, they do not have the power to bring it to pass.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
| 61 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 7:22 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|