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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/9/2003 12:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | This time of the year we think about our savior's birth and recall the prophecy recorded in Micah 5:2 that he would be born in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:6). Think of all of the millions of free human decisions that had to be known....WOW! They didn't live in Bethlehem so how are they going to get there to see this thing fulfilled? Well, Caesar Augustus issued his decree to tax everyone and therefore Joseph and Mary headed for Bethlehem (Luke 2:1-7). So God knew that Joseph would take off for Bethlehem and that Mary would go into labor and give birth just as predicted....
How do open theist see this prediction?
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 4:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika you said
quote:
chiam, a young couple in our church are expecting their first child. I predict that child WILL BE BORN in Saint Paul, Minnesota!!!!
Do you know how many millions of free human decisions I know in order to be able to predict that? NOT millions, but BILLIONS!
WOW, I HAVE EXHAUSTIVE, DIVINE FORE-KNOWLEGE.
Laika please, you know that the prophecy of Micah was made 700 years before the time of Christ. Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth and the birth was predicted to take place in Bethlehem. Your prediction is a present observation.
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/10/2003 4:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiam
Laika you said
quote:
chiam, a young couple in our church are expecting their first child. I predict that child WILL BE BORN in Saint Paul, Minnesota!!!!
Do you know how many millions of free human decisions I know in order to be able to predict that? NOT millions, but BILLIONS!
WOW, I HAVE EXHAUSTIVE, DIVINE FORE-KNOWLEGE.
Laika please, you know that the prophecy of Micah was made 700 years before the time of Christ. Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth and the birth was predicted to take place in Bethlehem. Your prediction is a present observation.
When the time came, God prompted Ceasar Augustus to count his population, sending Joseph back to Bethlehem. Just as God says in Isaiah 48:3 "Suddenly I acted, and they [proclamations] came to pass."
declaration---->action
Now in the face of scriptural explanation of how God declares things, and then later carries them out, why do you persist in the unscriptural belief that the future currently exists?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Chiam-
I appreciate the struggle you're having getting a hold on how open theists might understand prophetic passages. It is complicated if we insist on knowing every detail of how such things come about. But it's not impossible to account for such things on the open view.
If you embrace theological determinism, then it's pretty easy! God's the only one decicding what happens (even if he decides to bring it about through our decisions, those decisions are determined events as well). God is equally responsible for bringing everything to pass. God unconditionally decrees all events as well as everything needed to bring them to pass. That makes accounting for prophecy/fulfillment as easy as Apple pie. Just point to God! Of course, it creates difficulties elsewhere, but it's pretty clear-cut on the prophecy question.
What other options are there? Well, you can argue that God doesn't foreknow everything by determining it as the determinist holds. Instead, God foreknows everything by virtue of timeless knowledge. God is timeless and lives in an "eternal now" and so "sees" everything timelessly and knows that Mary will respond to the angel's good news, will accept the job to give birth to Jesus, will marry Joseph, and will be sent to Bethlehem by Caesar. It's all preveiwed on the big timeless screen in heaven. "Seeing" all of this from his timeless vantage point, it wouldn't be so hard for God to predict any event. In my view this understanding of foreknowledge is an impossible one for one simple reason; it can't explain how God is able to make use of what is forknown in providentially advantageous ways. He would be unable to make any use of his knowledge of events whatsoever, including preventing foreknown evil, bringing about foreknown blessing, prophesying the future, and guiding believers who seek his aid.
A third option is the open view. Open theists agree with determinists that God can and does determine events and so foreknows them. They just disagree that God relates exclusively to us in deterministic ways. They argue that in addition to having enough muscel to get what he wants via unconditional determination, God also has enough brains to get what he wants without having to determine it. If you can allow that God is able to determine THAT he is incarnate in Bethelem without having to determine exactly when and under which exact circumstances, then you're that much closer to understanding the open view of such prophecies. It's God's birth after all, right? So, it can't be very difficult for God to know where he'll be incarnate if he alone decides. And that's all that God tells Mica. God tells Mica the one bit of information about the incarnation that DOESN'T depend on anyone but himself, namely, where he's decided to incarnate himself.
But who will the mother be? Does Mica say that THIS piece of information is as settled as THAT the ruler will be born in Bethlehem? No. Does the fact that God ended up choosing Mary mean everything about Mary and Joseph living in Nazareth and not Bethlehem was as determined as the place of birth? Must God have determined everything about Mary and Joseph living in Nazareth as well as everything about Caesar before God could predict THAT the Messiah would be born in a certain city? Might God have been confident enough in his abilities to leave SOME things about this story open while closing other things about it? Might it be possible that God determined THAT he'd be incarnate in Bethlehem but that he left other details about HOW he be incarnate in Bethlehem open to be worked out in the context of the situation at the time? I don't find this so incredible a belief. In fact, I find it the most believable of the three options, even if it doesn't answer every question I have.
Much of my life is a mixture of the determined and the open. And separating the two in our understanding isn't always so easy. While many events may be determined, much about those events may be open to occuring in any number of ways. Did God know that Mary would be THE girl, that she'd live in Nazareth, that Caesar would be in charge and that he'd order a census? I don't think so. There's nothing in Mica 5.2 that requires all of this. All Mica does is limit the place of birth to a particular village? That leaves a lot open.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | TGB you said:
quote:
If you can allow that God is able to determine THAT he is incarnate in Bethelem without having to determine exactly when and under which exact circumstances, then you're that much closer to understanding the open view of such prophecies.
quote:
While many events may be determined, much about those events may be open to occuring in any number of ways. Did God know that Mary would be THE girl, that she'd live in Nazareth, that Caesar would be in charge and that he'd order a census? I don't think so. There's nothing in Mica 5.2 that requires all of this. All Mica does is limit the place of birth to a particular village? That leaves a lot open.
You mean He knew that he would become incarnate but--boy, He didn't know when this would happen? He did know the girl would be Mary? And, He had know idea what kind of circumstances it would be like?
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/10/2003 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Chiam: You mean He knew that he would become incarnate but--boy, He didn't know when this would happen? He did [not] know the girl would be Mary? And, He had know idea what kind of circumstances it would be like?
Tom: I wouldn't say God "had no idea" of what kind of circumstances he was looking for in timing his incarnation. In fact I'm quite sure that he had a specific sort of blend of circumstances in mind which he knew would constitute the most advantageous time, the "fullness of time," for his arrival? But what is so "wow" about God's knowing WHAT he's looking for but being open as to who the exact players will be and exatly when it'll play out (unless you mean the "wow" of worship, then I'm right with ya!)?
When parents have children, even if they don't do so, they admit that it's wisest to plan it out. Determine what factors need to be present for it to be the right time to start a family. Know what you're looking for in determining the circumstances that are best for YOU, for YOUR plans, to have your child. When you go to work on acheiving those circumstances you'll know when the time is right and you'll start your family. Determined ends, open routes. To illustrate it differently, I drive to my office every day. But I have two or three equally good ways of getting there. Do I have to determine ahead of time which route I'll take before I can even determine THAT my goal is to get to my office? Do you really want to say that God is incapable of determining the destination (incarnation) without determining which route? Incapable of determining THAT he'll incarnate in Bethlehem without determining that Mary will be the one, that a census will bring her to Bethelehem, that she'll give birth alongside farm animals? The goal can't be certain and the routes open?
Now, these illustrations and options are only as viable for you as is the sort of God would who not need to determine all things in order to relate lovingly to us a viable understanding of God for you. If you can't conceive of God being able to achieve his purposes for creating us in the first place without his having to UNCONDITIONALLY DETERMINE the minutia of every event, good and evil, that takes place in our world, then theological determinism is your ticket. I'm just saying, there are other explanations of prophecy that make good sense provided one is able to conceive of God as other than all-determining.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 7:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Down through the ages there have been many who hold to the compatiblist view of freedom, which argues that there is both human freedom and complete divine foreknowledge such as D.A. Carson's book, "Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility: Biblical Perspectives in Tension."
There are too many prophecies in the Scriptures for me to buy into your Open View.
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 12/10/2003 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | We adressed this same line of reasoning in the "Ware's excellent quote: p 110 God's Lesser Glory" thread a few days ago...
The short answer is that...Well, God just could, in fact, be that smart enough to predict with precision all of the things that seem impossible to you.
Essentially, the only thing one must do to understand "How God could..." (do anything) is to acknowledge that God is infinitely wise/intelligent. At that point HOW God does anything becomes a moot point. I submit that we default to this line of reasoning when we gaze into the stars and think, "How did God do that?" Although we cannot even begin to understand or grasp the magnitude of creation, when our brain simply acknowlegdes omnipotence, the question is settled. Apply this same method to prophesy coupled with God's infinite intelligence. And there you have it.
To God alone be the glory,
John | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
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Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm try to understand OV....Ok?
Do you think Boyd would agree with you that God knew he would become incarnate and the actual birth place would be Bethlehem, but He didn't know when? And He also did not know that it would be Mary?
Chiam
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Rpeterso
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 18
| Posted 12/10/2003 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Chiam,
Why must it be that all God accomplishs is only that which is unilateral? Is it really that inconceivable for an all knowing, all present, and all powerful God to achieve whatever he desires, whenever he desires in an open future? The sheer interdependency of contingencies allows for the flap of a wing from a butterfly to causally lead to a hurricane many months later. Certainly with God's infinite intelligence he can direct any end he desires without using coercion.
Ryan | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/10/2003 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Sim: and I think too many of my "meticulous providence" brothers (such as you, I assume) rely too much on the element of mystery to resolve the inherit contradiction of your position. There is enough within scripture to not take your view. Given that, why would someone believe something that, on the face of it, is contradictory?
Given the contradictory look of meticulous providence, one would think that those who hold it would be eager to show how it is not contradictory (to give some way in which it isn't). But that seems impossible, given that people such as Packer and Carson must fall back on "tensions." | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/10/2003 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/10/2003 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | | Is it pride to want to know all you can about God's works? | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/10/2003 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by SIM
Why is it difficult to admit that there is something about God that cannot be humanly explained?
This is fine by me. So why do determinists like yourself object to the open view because it makes claims about God open theists cannot explain to your satisfaction? If you can hide here, so can we. If you expect open theits to provide a coherent, logical, and reasoned defense of THEIR claims, stop claiming that no such defense of YOUR views is possible because it's GOD we're talking about. See?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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