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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 10/11/2001 6:34 PM (GMT -6) |   | As a student at the University of Texas, I found myself surrounded with friends who read John Piper like it is the word of God.... in response, I have read everything by Boyd I could get my hands on. I have found the info on this board very useful, but have never posted, but would like some commentary on two certain passage of scripture:
Revelation 18:20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."
This has been used to say that God does will people to go to hell. I can see some holes in this myself, but would like to get some feedback.
Exodus 4:21 "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."
This is a concept that has bothered me for a long time. Why would God harden someone's heart? Calvinists can easily answer this.
Also, another popular argument I hear is that God chose Abraham, Abraham didn't choose God. This line of thought can easily blend well with TULIP theology.
Any insightful comments would be appreciated,
Greg A Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/12/2001 4:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome Jewgrass (what a tag!!! -- are you a Jew who likes bluegrass, or what?  I admire you for making the effort to understand my perspective in a context which (it appears) it is not generally appreciated.
Onto your questions:
Revelation 18:20. If the text suggested that God pronounced judgement against Babylon before Babylon ever existed, this might prove difficult for the open view. But the judgement is in response to Babylon's wickedness (listed in ch.18). I see no support for Calvinism here. Scripture is about as clear as I can imagine it being that God does NOT will people to go to hell.
2Pet. 3:9 The Lord... is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
1Tim. 2:4 God desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Exodus 4:21. If this passage suggested that God's hardening was the cause of Pharoah's rebellion rather than a response to it, it might prove problematic to the open view. As it is, the narrative makes it clear that Pharoah hardened his own heart before God strengthened him in this rebellious stance. Pharoah hardens his own heart in Ex. 7:13, 14, 22, 8:15, 19, 23, 9:7. Only in 9:12 does God begin to further solidify this hardness.
The passage does demonstrate God's foreknowledge of Pharoah's hardness, but not God's predestination of Pharoah's hardness (like Pharoah could have just as easily been a great guy, except God decide to make him evil). Even the foreknowledge does not argue strongly against the open view, however, for the open view grants that a person's self-formed character can be predictable long before decisions which reflect this character are made. It simply insists that the character itself isn't exhaustively determined, or foreknown, by God. It is acquired by the agent himself. Had Pharoah not cultivated an anti-God disposition, the narrative about the exodus would have looked very different than it now looks.
Hope this helps. Thanks for piping in. Hope to hear more from you.
Doc
Edited by - GregBoyd on 10/12/2001 09:54:23 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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Total Posts : 301
| Posted 10/12/2001 5:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jewgrass. Nice to meet a fellow student of the Hebrew Bible. I’m studying at Luther Seminary.
quote:
Exodus 4:21 "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."
This is a concept that has bothered me for a long time. Why would God harden someone's heart? Calvinists can easily answer this.
Here’s how OT scholar Terence Fretheim handles this passage: “Pharaoh’s own obdurancy is the prior reality; his stubbornness is intensified by God’s action. His pattern of willfulness in time becomes irreversible through continual refusal to respond to God’s word; more and more the end becomes a certain matter…but that was not determined from the beginning…” (p. 104).
quote:
Also, another popular argument I hear is that God chose Abraham, Abraham didn't choose God. This line of thought can easily blend well with TULIP theology.
Jewish scholar, Jon D. Levenson identifies “the problematics of chosenness” as “one of the central theological concepts not only of ancient Israel, but of rabbinic Judaism and Christianity as well” (The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son, 154). He goes on to say that “God’s favor...is not unrelated to the moral and intellectual mettle of the [chosen one]....As always in the Hebrew Bible, we have here a theology too subtle to be done justice by the familiar Christian dichotomy of grace versus works” (167).
I agree that the problematics of chosenness are a key biblical theme that Christians often neglect or reject in reaction to overly deterministic theological perspectives. But I disagree that Christianity has not done justice to this complex theological current in the Hebrew Bible—after all, our scriptures call us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work within us.
In closing, here is one more salient quote from Dr. Fretheim: “A key to these stories is that God's choosing, speaking, and acting generates much of the conflict....But this divine decision does not mean that the future is determined. The way in which the characters respond...is important for the direction of subsequent developments. The principals are to respond faithfully and how they work through the divine choices and promises shapes the future, including God’s” (The Pentateuch, 92).
Sorry to throw a bunch of quotes at you, but I encourage you to check out these authors if you haven’t already.
Pleased to meet you,
pia
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If I have ventured wrongly, well, then life helps me by punishing me. But if I have not ventured at all who helps me then? § Søren
Edited by - pia†desideria on 10/12/2001 11:02:29 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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adiaphora
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Total Posts : 123
| Posted 10/12/2001 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome Jewgrass.
We have had some lively and productive discussions of these great questions in the past. You might want to use the search function on the menubar above to look up these topics. ~ a
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/12/2001 11:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Its important to remember that a) the choice of Abraham was conditioned on his faithfulness; and b) the "choosing" of Israel wasn't for eternal salvation, but for a VOCATION to eventually minister to the whole world.
Doc
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 10/12/2001 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, (Doc, Pia, and adia)for the responses. Although there are difficult verses no matter which stance you take, I find it curious how the Bible straightforwardly affirms free-will (and hence the ability granted by God to thwart his will) throughout scripture yet TULIP claims such as the belief that God wills people to hell "to glorify Him" aren't nearly as scripturally clear.
BTW, Doc, you are perfectly correct in guessing my name: Jew for Judaism, Grass for Bluegrass. Although I am a gentile by blood, I am a Jewish Studies/Hebrew major that just happens to pick the banjo :)
I'd like to share with you a recent email discussion with one of my friends:
“For if you hesitate to believe, or are too proud to acknowledge, that God foreknows and wills all things, not contingently, but necessarily and immutably, how can you believe, trust and rely on His promises? Greg, God is sovereign, not in the box you think. There is no free will because if there was, then we could choose our salvation. Since we cannot choose our salvation we cannot choose anything relating to it. Everything relates to our salvation, where Satan is, how the angels acts, what the Spirit does, how people are used to influence our lives depends on how their cars are running and how their lives are run. Therefore God runs the show and to acknowledge anyone else running the show, is pride, Satan once wanted to do that."
I responded by asking if God caused Adam and Eve to sin and pointing out scriptures such as 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim 2:4, Eze 18:23, 1 Corinthians 10:12-13, Isaiah 65:2, Jeremiah 5:21-25, etc. The current argument is about the supposed "two wills of God" as described in Piper's THE PLEASURES OF GOD. If I have any more questions in the future, I'll be sure to post.
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/13/2001 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Just want to ruminate abit on the statement by Jewsgrasses friend.
Jewgrasses friend: if you hesitate to believe, or are too proud to acknowledge, that God foreknows and wills all things, not contingently, but necessarily and immutably, how can you believe, trust and rely on His promises?
Doc: You've got to love the ad hominem dimension: "too proud to acknowledge." "If you disagree with me, you are PROUD.
More to the point, how does one TRUST God's promises if, after telling us he wants all to be saved, it turns out he's damned the majority to hell? And after telling us he's all good and all holy, he ordains little children to be raped and dismembered. Maybe in trusting God, it will turn out YOU are yourself damned. The hangman may come after (viz. predestined) YOU'RE eternal destruction -- or that of your newborn baby. I'd hesitate celebrating the glory of my eternal salvation, in contrast to the poor suckers who missed out, for the promise that YOU will be saved may not be for you after all.
Friend of Jewgrass: Greg, God is sovereign, not in the box you think.
Doc: Whose the one whose got God in the box? I hear this like someone with agoraphobia telling me I'm too narrow-minded to stay indoors!
Friend: There is no free will because if there was, then we could choose our salvation. Since we cannot choose our salvation we cannot choose anything relating to it.
Doc: False logic, but the more important point is that its one thing to say we can't choose salvation on our own, and another thing to say that God chooses it for us.
Friend: Therefore God runs the show and to acknowledge anyone else running the show, is pride, Satan once wanted to do that."
Doc: But then again, if God is "running the show," Satan's desire must be part of the show, as is my pride. And, since God is all good, both Satan's pride and my pride must contribute to the "glory of God." So whats the point of this comment?
It's pride to claim that Satan, not God, inspires child rapings, the Holocaust, the damnation of people, etc... God wants all the credit. May as well accuse Jesus of pride for coming against Satan in healing the deformed (Lk 13). No no no, Jesus, give GOD the glory!
Hallelujah!!!
Just needed to get that off my chest.
Doc
Edited by - GregBoyd on 10/13/2001 09:08:30 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/13/2001 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Revelation 18:20. If the text suggested that God pronounced judgment against Babylon before Babylon ever existed, this might prove difficult for the open view.
But ancient Babylon was no more, at the time of the first century, so this seems to be speaking of a present or future Babylon. Most interpretations have placed these events in the "last days," i.e. in the future.
quote:
Exodus 4:21. If this passage suggested that God's hardening was the cause of Pharoah's rebellion rather than a response to it, it might prove problematic to the open view.
EX 9:16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
The Lord seems to say here that his plan was to have Pharaoh harden his heart, from the start of his rule, God was intending this. It was bound to happen, God saw to it that it did, so I think it is appropriate to say that God did cause this. But the way God hardens hearts is through his word:
ISA 6:9 He said, Go and tell this people: "Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving." Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.
EX 6:10-11 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go, tell Pharaoh king of Egypt to let the Israelites go out of his country."
The command, it seems, caused the hardening of his heart.
quote:
More to the point, how does one TRUST God's promises if, after telling us he wants all to be saved, it turns out he's damned the majority to hell?
Universalism may be the response here, maybe people can repent, even in hell?
PS 86:9 All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, O Lord; they will bring glory to your name.
quote:
And after telling us he's all good and all holy, he ordains little children to be raped and dismembered.
No, that he experiences himself, God is not apart from pain and suffering, I believe. A man may be put in jail for striking someone else, but not for striking himself. If God is not a madman, then the pain he inflicts, and feels, and bears, is for a reason, even pain such as you mention, even pain such as crucifixion.
quote:
It's pride to claim that Satan, not God, inspires child rapings, the Holocaust, the damnation of people, etc...
Satan work evil, and God bears it, but not because Satan is in control. "God is not cleaning up after the devil" (Joni Eareckson Tada).
PS 10:14 But you, O God, do see trouble and grief; you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless.
God bless you,
Lee
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/14/2001 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Lee. Let me give a little feedback.
Lee: But ancient Babylon was no more, at the time of the first century, so this seems to be speaking of a present or future Babylon. Most interpretations have placed these events in the "last days," i.e. in the future.
Doc: While most contemporary EVANGELICALS see hold to the "futurist" interpretation of Revelation, this is only one of FOUR positions taken on this book historically. Neither the Preterist, Idealist, or Historicist interpretations take this position. Even on the futurist interpretation, however, the judgement of God is IN RESPONSE to the sin of this nation (actually, I think, Babylon is a SYMBOL for all worldly powers that oppose God).
Lee: (ON EX 9:16, "I have raised you up for this very purpose,") The Lord seems to say here that his plan was to have Pharaoh harden his heart, from the start of his rule, God was intending this. It was bound to happen, God saw to it that it did, so I think it is appropriate to say that God did cause this.
Doc: It certainly fit God's providential purposes to make an example of Pharoah. But there's nothing to suggest that God's "raising up" is synonymous with God's "creating" Pharoah. He raised up to providentially employ a man who had made himself hard. Nothing suggests God CREATED Pharoah with the goal of having him resist God's will.
LEE: ISA 6:9 He said, Go and tell this people: "Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving." Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.... The command, it seems, caused the hardening of his heart.
Doc: I agree Lee. God DOES cause the hardness of hearts. But as with Pharoah, the context of the quote indicates that this was God's JUDGEMENT on the hard heartedness of his people. As with Pharoah, the Israelites FIRST harden their hearts. THEN God solidifies their hardeness with further pronouncements, as you say.
Blessings
Doc
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/14/2001 2:39 PM (GMT -6) | | I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this!
quote:
Doc: God DOES cause the hardness of hearts. But as with Pharoah, the context of the quote indicates that this was God's JUDGEMENT on the hard heartedness of his people. As with Pharoah, the Israelites FIRST harden their hearts. THEN God solidifies their hardness with further pronouncements, as you say.
Paul's mention of this, though, seems to place God's actions farther back:
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh...
And the "therefore" here harks back to Jacob and Esau:
RO 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...
So could it be that Pharaoh is placed also in this scenario, that God raised Pharaoh up for that purpose from the start?
Otherwise, the question that Paul asks about this seems inappropriate:
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
If Pharaoh was the one responsible for the initial hardening, why then would Paul ask this question here?
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 10/14/2001 7:42:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/14/2001 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee: I think your response reveals the basic underyling hermenuetic which leads to the Calvinist reading of the "hardening" passages in the OT. It involves three steps:
1) One takes a particular interpretation of Paul's potter-clay analogy of Moses and Pharoah in Romans 9. The making of vessells for mercy or wrath was done totally by God and was about salvation.
2. This relates to Paul's previous use of the Jacob-Esau choosing J"before they were born."
3. The hardening of Pharoah (and others) in the OT is then understood to occur 'before they were born."
I have expressed an alternative reading of Romans 9 several times on this discussion board (and it is summarized in the Openness section of this website). VERY briefly,
1. The potter-clay analogy in Romans 9 is not about the exercise of unilateral power of God, but of God's wisdom is RESPONDING to "clay" (cf. Jere. 18). The fashioning is not about eternal salvation, but about God's interaction with us IN HISTORY.
2. The Jacob-Esau story sets a precedent of God's right to choose whoever he wants (in this case, choosing Israel as his vocational people over other nations), and Paul relates this to show that God can choose whoever he wants -- even if its merely people who will have faith, whether Jew or Gentile. To Jews who thought they were God's people because of their nationality and works, this is outrageous. They think God is unjusty and unfair if he does this. They can't believe that THEY are the ones hardened. To this Paul says, "who are you, a mere man, to find fault with God?"
3. The hardening-as-judgement reading of Pharoah and others in the OT corresponds to this understanding of Romans 9.
All I have time for now.
Blessings
Greg
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Kyle Essary
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Total Posts : 113
| Posted 10/15/2001 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jewgrass, and hello everyone else. I too am a student in Texas at Hardin-Simmons in Abilene. Coming from a strong determinist tradition, I too accepted that all of John Piper's writings were correct. I also regarded it very highly at one point, as many people in Texas do. Over this past summer, I began to question some of his teachings like the Pleasure of God in Election. His constant reference to the Soveriegnty of God has also brought about many questions. After I began questioning these things, I enrolled in a class on Christian Doctrine with a professor which I had never had. It turns out that he is an open theist who knows the Calvinist side very well since he was a grad student for Timothy George, and studied at Southern Seminary. He suggested I read a book called "The Case for Freewill Theism" by David Basinger, and "Providence and Prayer" by Terrance Tiessen. He said that the latter was written by a strong Calvinist, but that it presents all of the major views very accurately and he was surprised to find that he was a Calvinist. Dr. Boyd, what are your thoughts on those two books, or have you ever even heard of them?
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/16/2001 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Kyle. I too journeyed into the open view from a Calvinist perspective. Happy trails!
Yes, I've read both books and recommend both highly. They are both very objective presentations of the options, though I (perhaps predictably) felt both could have presented the open view in a stronger light. The Providence and Prayer book is the best single presentation of all the major theologies of prayer I have ever seen! (But the authors own view at the end strikes me as unintelligible).
Hope you process your thinking on this site. its a good place to do it.
Doc
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/18/2001 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | JewGrass,
I would like to reiterate Greg’s response to you.
God predicted Pharaoh’s obstinacy. He told Moses to go to the elders of Israel and give them God’s message. Here’s the conclusion of the message. Ex 3:18-20 “you and the elders of Israel [shall come] to the king . . . and . . . say to him, ‘The LORD God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19 But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. 20 So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.”
With this prediction in mind, did Pharaoh have a chance? He was raised to be arrogant. He was worshipped as a god. And we saw that God knew about this guy, because, God knows everything. In fact, God also told Moses this! Ex 4:21-23 “See that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.’”
This looks like Pharaoh won’t even have a chance to repent. You might even reply like Rom 9:19 Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But, you’d be way off base.
What is going on in Exodus? Was Thutmose III a nice guy who God arbitrarily hardened into a cruel ruthless despot? The Scriptures show gentle, then mounting pressure upon Pharaoh to let God’s people go.
God started with a mild request. Ex 5:1-4 Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.’” 2 And Pharaoh said, “Who is the LORD, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, nor will I let Israel go.” 3 So they said, “The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days’ journey into the desert and sacrifice to the LORD our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.” 4 Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor.”
Pharaoh’s answer was bitter toil. He even made them gather the straw used in the bricks but required the same number of bricks. He was a cruel man. God knew this guy’s heart. In His continued requests, God would do two things. God would strengthen Pharaoh’s heart. Strengthen is Strong’s 2388 chazaq (khaw-zak') it appears 290 times in 266 verses; It is translated hard or harden 12 times in the Pharaoh material in Exodus and hard only twice outside of Exodus in the whole Bible. It is usually translated in the KJV strong 48, repair 47, hold 37, strengthened 28, strengthen 14, harden 13, prevail 10, encourage 9, take 9, courage 8, caught 5, stronger 5, hold 5, misc. 52. The meaning is, to strengthen, prevail, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore.
Therefore, Ex 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will strengthen his heart, so that he will not let the people go.” God would be the cause of Pharaoh hardening his own heart. Just as Sun melts wax and hardens clay, God’s light shining on Pharaoh caused him to respond as his hard heart would do.
But we must remember that God spoke to Moses before Pharaoh ever had a chance to harden his own heart. What did He tell Moses? He said, “I am sure [he] will not let you go.” But, what does that really mean? I believe it means God knows this guy’s heart. The king of Egypt has a heart like a lump of clay. I know that’s what it’s like. It’s not the malleable kind. It will respond to the heat I put on him like a lump of clay responds.
Many writers agree with this interpretation. Rotherham, in his Bible, translated the passage this way: “I will let his heart wax bold, and he will not suffer the people to go.” He further explained that many languages, like Hebrew, use verbs which normally signify causation in the sense of permission or showing the occasion of an event. He used the example of the raven and the dove in Gen 8:7,8. It says Noah sent them “forth”, but he simply “let them go.” Also, when the Hebrew verb, “to cause to live” was used of the midwives (Ex 1:17), it plainly meant “permitted them” to live. That is, they “refrained from putting them to death.” [The Emphasized Bible, p. 919.]
There are other examples of this usage, but let’s look at the progression of God’s signs and the plagues as God permits Pharaoh’s heart to get hard.
Moses’ rod became a snake. And then ate the snakes of the magicians, but in Ex 7:13 Pharaoh’s heart grew strong, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
He turned the Nile into blood. Ex 7:22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew strong, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
He caused frogs to come on the land. Ex 8:8-15 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, “Entreat the Lord that He may take away the frogs from me and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may sacrifice to the Lord.” 9 And Moses said to Pharaoh, “Accept the honor of saying when I shall intercede for you, for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only.” 10 So he said, “Tomorrow.” And he said, “Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God. 11 And the frogs shall depart from you, from your houses, from your servants, and from your people. They shall remain in the river only.” 12 Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh. And Moses cried out to the Lord concerning the frogs which He had brought against Pharaoh. 13 So the Lord did according to the word of Moses. And the frogs died out of the houses, out of the courtyards, and out of the fields. 14 They gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. 15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
He caused lice, gnats, or fleas throughout the land. But the magicians couldn’t do that. Ex 8:16-19 So the Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your rod, and strike the dust of the land, so that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.’” 17 And they did so. For Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod and struck the dust of the earth, and it became lice on man and beast. All the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt. 18 Now the magicians so worked with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not. So there were lice on man and beast. 19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God. ” But Pharaoh’s heart grew strong, and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had said.
He brought flies or beetles. Ex 8:21-24 Or else, if you will not let My people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants, on your people and into your houses. The houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand. 22 And in that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there, in order that you may know that I am the Lord in the midst of the land. 23 I will make a difference between My people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall be. 24 And the Lord did so. Thick swarms of flies came into the house of Pharaoh, into his servants’ houses, and into all the land of Egypt. The land was corrupted because of the swarms of flies.
The Egyptian’s cattle died, but not Israel’s. Ex 9:1-7 Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 For if you refuse to let them go, and still hold them, 3 behold, the hand of the Lord will be on your cattle in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the oxen, and on the sheep—a very severe pestilence. 4 And the Lord will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel.” 5 Then the Lord appointed a set time, saying, “Tomorrow the Lord will do this thing in the land.” 6 So the Lord did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the children of Israel, not one died. 7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go.
He caused serious boils. Ex 9:10,11 “Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians.” What would you expect Pharaoh to do now? There were no more magicians. Surely he would falter from apprehension and dread. Even though he had the same evil fervor, he would realize the hopelessness of carrying it out. But God didn’t want him to comply because of a faint heart. God wanted to use this opportunity to show how He was allied with Israel right from its birth as a nation. So, God strengthened Pharaoh’s heart and gave him the resolve, the firmness of heart, to continue with his unrepentant attitudes. That’s why it says in Ex 9:12 But the Lord strengthened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Next, He sent hail. Ex 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. 34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was strong; neither would he let the children of Israel go, as the Lord had spoken by Moses.
Now, remember, God wants every sinner to truly repent according to Eze 18:23 “Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?” That’s why God sent Moses and Aaron with this message, even though He knew that He would be the cause provoking Pharaoh to be hardened. Ex 10:3-6 So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 4 Or else, if you refuse to let My people go, behold, tomorrow I will bring locusts into your territory. 5 And they shall cover the face of the earth, so that no one will be able to see the earth; and they shall eat the residue of what is left, which remains to you from the hail, and they shall eat every tree which grows up for you out of the field. 6 They shall fill your houses, the houses of all your servants, and the houses of all the Egyptians—which neither your fathers nor your fathers’ fathers have seen, since the day that they were on the earth to this day.’” And he turned and went out from Pharaoh.
He sent locusts. Ex 10:12,16,17,20 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the land of Egypt for the locusts, that they may come upon the land of Egypt, and eat every herb of the land—all that the hail has left.” 16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, “I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. 17 Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and entreat the Lord your God, that He may take away from me this death only.” 20 But the Lord strengthened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
He sent darkness that could be felt. Ex 10:21-23,27-29 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings. 27 But the Lord strengthened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go. 28 Then Pharaoh said to him, “Get away from me! Take heed to yourself and see my face no more! For in the day you see my face you shall die!” 29 And Moses said, “You have spoken well. I will never see your face again.”
He instituted the Passover. Ex 11:4-10 Then Moses said, “Thus says the Lord: ‘About midnight I will go out into the midst of Egypt; 5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the female servant who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the animals. 6 Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again. 7 But against none of the children of Israel shall a dog move its tongue, against man or beast, that you may know that the Lord does make a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.’ 8 And all these your servants shall come down to me and bow down to me, saying, ‘Get out, and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will go out.” Then he went out from Pharaoh in great anger. 9 But the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh will not heed you, so that My wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.” 10 So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the Lord strengthened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
There’s a difference between God making Pharaoh so he couldn’t let God’s people go, and strengthening his heart so he wouldn’t wimp out because the pressure was too great. If Pharaoh had truly repented, our gracious God would have repented of the stated harm He would do to Egypt, just as He stated He would in Eze 18:19-32 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
The concept is similar for nations in Jer 18:1-10, The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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writerdad
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/19/2001 7:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Those are good thoughts, Bob! Should we keep in mind here, though, that the last-stated analogy is the potter and the clay? What choice does the clay have in what it is formed to be? Paul in Romans doesn't seem to even allow for us to choose to be "willing clay":
RO 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"
The forming is viewed as complete, before the question arises. And in the context of Pharaoh, Paul says:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Again, no reference to man's decisions or power to choose, all that is mentioned is God's prerogative and choice.
Now if Pharaoh had some choice in the matter, it seems odd that Paul would then ask:
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
We would have no such complaint if our choices were the primary starting-point for the resulting vessel, for the hardness or softness of our hearts.
And Paul could be easily answered if we have this type of control: "well, we resist his will." But he asks the question in a manner that seems to expect the answer, "well, no one resists his will."
ISA 14:27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
God bless you,
Lee
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Bob Hill
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| Posted 10/19/2001 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
Excuse some of the redundancy, but it is essential to the argument. First, I agree that no one can resist God’s counsel [boulay]. But everyone resists His will [thelay]. When it says in Rom 9:18 “Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.”, does it really mean God hardens people? As you know, many believe that God elects some to be saved but reprobates the rest – actually actively consigns them to hell. But is that what this verse is teaching? I like this illustration. Put a lump of moist clay and a lump of hard wax on the window sill of the south side of the building in the hot sun. Now, the sun shines down with its sunlight on a nice sunny Colorado [That’s where I live.] afternoon. If we come back a couple of hours later while the sun is still well up in the sky, we’ll find a hard rock like lump and a puddle of wax. It was the same sunlight that hardened the clay and melted the wax. This is like the rain of Heb 6:7-8, “For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” Think about these two illustrations. Did the sun harden the clay in the sense that it made the clay be the kind of substance that would harden, or was the sun the cause for the clay to harden? Similarly, was the rain the reason one portion of ground brought up briars and the other useful herbs? Do you see the difference? Was the sun the thing that made the clay hard? Was the sun the thing that made the wax melt or soften? Or was it the sun that made the clay do what clay innately does when heat warms it up? Did the wax do what wax does innately when it gets warm?
You may ask what the Bible means in Exo 3:19 and 4:21 when it reports God speaking to Moses, “But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand” (3:19). And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go” (4:21). Pharaoh is an example of how God shows mercy. God didn’t let the pestilence kill him. Verse 18 could be a conclusion: God has mercy on whomever He wills (Jacob and Pharaoh) and hardens whomever He wills (Pharaoh). But this is not a hardening against salvation. Individual salvation is not an issue here. But let’s get back to Exo 3:19 and 4:21. Here God is speaking to Moses before Pharaoh ever had a chance to harden his own heart. What did God tell Moses? He said, “I am sure (he) will not let you go.” What does that mean? “The king of Egypt has a heart like a lump of clay. I know that is what his heart is like. I know this guy’s heart. It’s not the waxy type. It’s like a lump of clay.” Many expositors agree with this interpretation.
Rotherham translated this, “I will let his heart wax bold, and he will not suffer the people to go.” Further, he wrote, “That Hebrew grammars distinctly avow occasion or permission to be sometimes the sense of verbs which ordinarily signify cause can be verified by a reference to the Hebrew Grammar of Gesenius, . . . After stating that the verbal form . . . called piel denotes intensity and repetition, this grammar adds: ‘It often takes the modifications expressed by permit, . . . . Of this, a good example is found in the verb shalach, ‘to send.’ Notice its modification with reference to the raven and the dove in Gen. VIII. 7,8. Noah sent them ‘forth’; that is he simply ‘let them go.’ So with regard to hayah, ‘to live’; in piel, ‘to cause to live.’ Moses said that the midwives (literally) ‘caused the male children to live’ (Ex. 1.17) – plainly, ‘permitted them,’ ‘refrained from putting them to death.’” There are other examples of this usage. Cf. The Emphasized Bible, p. 919. The reference most similar to our text is Psalm 81:11,12. “But My people would not heed My voice, and Israel would have none of Me. 12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels.” Here, we see that the result of letting them have their own stubborn heart was to walk in their own counsels. Rotherham quotes Kalisch: “As the external, often accidental, occasion of an event is mostly more obvious, even to the reflecting mind, than its primary cause or its true (often hidden) originator, it has become a linguistic peculiarity in most ancient, especially the Semitic, languages, to use indiscriminately (the occasion) rather than (the cause) so that the phrase, ‘I shall harden the heart of Pharaoh’ means: ‘I know that I shall be the cause of Pharaoh’s obstinacy; my commands and wonders will be an occasion, an inducement to an increasing obduration of his heart.” Also consult Forster and Marston, God's Strategy in Human History, pp. 160-175.
In other words, when we see the event with Pharaoh, and God says, “I am going to harden Pharaoh’s heart,” we look at it as the occasion. Pharaoh’s heart is hardened. God is going to harden it. What does He mean when He says I’m going to harden that heart? He means, “I’m going to be the cause of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened, like the clay. We must always consider 1 Ti 2:4 when we look at this account. God even wanted Pharaoh to be saved. In addition, we must always remember that God does not cause anyone to sin (Jam 1:13-15). God’s actions are reflected in Psa 18:25-26, “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful; With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless; 26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.”
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” This question is similar to the previous questions from self righteous Jews who were hassling the believers in Rome. If we look at this question more closely, we must ask, “Can anyone resist His will?” If you mean His counsel (boulay) then the answer is, no one can. But if you mean who can resist His will (thelayma)? Everyone does. Unbelievers resist and all are not saved. Believers resist and all are not sanctified (1 Th 4:3), even though that is His will (thelayma). However, no one can prevent His counsel (boulay) from happening. He is going to bring His counsel, (boulay), to pass. That’s the word found in this passage. According to 2 Pe 3:9, “The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness but is longsuffering toward us, not counseling (boulomenos) any to perish but all to have room for repentance” (My translation.). No one has resisted His counsel. He has determined that the plan of salvation would be accomplished, and it was. Paul doesn’t seem to answer the question directly, but I think the illustration in 9:20,21 really does.
Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Paul was alluding to Isa 64:8, “But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.” He also directly quoted from Isa 29:16, “Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, ‘He did not make me’? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, ‘He has no understanding’?”
But in addition to these passages, I believe he was looking more to the context of Jer 18:1-11: “The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”
When the potter (God) tried to make the clay (Israel) into a vessel of honor, it marred in his hand. Would that be the potter’s (God’s) fault or the clay’s (Israel’s). Was the clay (Israel) resisting? When it was made into another vessel, one which didn’t have the honor that the first vessel would have had, was that the potter’s (God’s) fault? Absolutely not! Further, we see that repentance is the vital issue from God’s view. This is illustrated in 2 Ti 2:20,21, “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/20/2001 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for your reply, Bob, here are some further thoughts...
quote:
I agree that no one can resist God’s counsel [boulay]. But everyone resists His will [thelay].
I would say that exactly opposite, though Bob, that people do resist God's counsel (i.e. do not follow his guidelines and principles), but they do not, they cannot resist his will. Maybe you are using these words in a different sense than the way I do, though.
quote:
Think about these two illustrations. Did the sun harden the clay in the sense that it made the clay be the kind of substance that would harden, or was the sun the cause for the clay to harden? Similarly, was the rain the reason one portion of ground brought up briars and the other useful herbs?
But in the first illustration (e.g. as depicted in Jeremiah and Romans 9), there is not clay and wax, there is just the potter and the clay. Thus the substance is the same for both those who are shown mercy and those who are hardened. It is a miracle of God that we are not hardened, it seems, his active participation is required for us not to respond as any lump of clay would respond.
For the second illustration, the ground is again the same for both. The difference is in the seeds in the ground, but the ground does not sow the seeds (see Mt. 13:37-39). Again, the picture is one in which the object under discussion is passive, not active, clay and earth.
quote:
What does He mean when He says I’m going to harden that heart? He means, “I’m going to be the cause of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened, like the clay.
But God made the clay, God made Pharoah, his inmost being (Ps. 139:13), so he is not just the incidental cause of Pharaoh's heart being hardened, but the ultimate cause, in a real sense. Which doesn't imply that God causes sin, but his hardening of Pharoah's heart makes Pharoah's heart unable to repent, it seems.
quote:
“Can anyone resist His will?” If you mean His counsel (boulay) then the answer is, no one can. But if you mean who can resist His will (thelayma)? Everyone does. Unbelievers resist and all are not saved. Believers resist and all are not sanctified (1 Th 4:3), even though that is His will (thelayma).
I believe that thelayma may also mean "unalterable, unthwartable purpose" (Jn. 6:39, for instance). But you just seemed to have confirmed my point, am I misunderstanding you here? No one, not even Pharaoh, can resist God's boulay, thus Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's act, primarily, not Pharaoh's.
quote:
"Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work."
But who can cleanse themselves? This is a command:
EZE 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!
But "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!" (Job 14:4). In a subesquent passage in Ezekiel, God shows that this has to be his work:
EZE 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes."
EZE 36:25 "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you."
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 10/20/2001 1:35:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/20/2001 10:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee: Should we keep in mind here, though, that the last-stated analogy is the potter and the clay? What choice does the clay have in what it is formed to be? Paul in Romans doesn't seem to even allow for us to choose to be "willing clay":
Doc: Read Jeremiah 18:1-10 carefully Lee. It suggests just the opposite. Precisely because God is the "potter" and we are the "clay," the Lord is reserves the light to change his mind in regards to us IF WE WILL CHANGE.
Great posts Bob Hill. I appreciate -- in fact, I'm sort of amazed by -- the amount of time and energy you put into your responses!
Doc
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 10/20/2001 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: Should we keep in mind here, though, that the last-stated analogy is the potter and the clay? What choice does the clay have in what it is formed to be? Paul in Romans doesn't seem to even allow for us to choose to be "willing clay":
Doc: Read Jeremiah 18:1-10 carefully Lee. It suggests just the opposite. Precisely because God is the "potter" and we are the "clay," the Lord is reserves the light to change his mind in regards to us IF WE WILL CHANGE.
Speaking as a Potter .......
Lee: With regards to: "What choice does the clay have in what it is formed to be?" LOTS. In my own P&C presentations/talks that is one thing that I point out. I openly speculate that, since we don't know from the text, MAYBE it was the clay's inconsistancy, or its ill-prepared state. "Kneading" the clay lines up its flat mica-like particles, allowing water to hold them together better (think biology slides held by water's surface tension). Either reason, it CAN be the clay's fault.
And to agree with Doc, a limited pot, which is incomplete by one use's standard may be reworked to fit another. (Good bye vase; hello dog-dish.)
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
BTW - The text tells us what Jeremiah SAW. It doesn't tell us what he didn't see. He probably saw the potter's right hand. (presuming...) But it is the LEFT hand that give most of the shape, the hand which is unseen, which works in coordination without appearant cues, which works subtly, that is the more intuitive. The one most like the Holy Spirit.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/20/2001 5:11:54 PM
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/26/2001 9:05:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 10/20/2001 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee: Should we keep in mind here, though, that the last-stated analogy is the potter and the clay? What choice does the clay have in what it is formed to be? Paul in Romans doesn't seem to even allow for us to choose to be "willing clay":
Doc: Read Jeremiah 18:1-10 carefully Lee. It suggests just the opposite. Precisely because God is the "potter" and we are the "clay," the Lord is reserves the light to change his mind in regards to us IF WE WILL CHANGE.
That's a good point, Doc and PotOnWheel, I am overstating my case!
JER 18:14-15 "Does the snow of Lebanon ever vanish from its rocky slopes? Do its cool waters from distant sources ever cease to flow? Yet my people have forgotten me"...
The Lord seems to be saying here that streams and snow and clay are all more responsive than these hard hearts, that the people in question are "more clay than clay." Thus the aspect of peoples' response seems to be almost irrelevant in this passage, their nature is inherently unresponsive.
Also, the Lord seems to assert his absolute sovereignty here:
JER 18:6 "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."
And in addition(!) the evidence of sin here is the loss of freedom, not the exercise of freedom, these people are captive to sin (Acts 8:23, 2 Tim. 2:26).
And one more point: I believe that the Lord knew they would not respond, that he knows peoples' responses in advance (at least the Israelites' response here):
JER 7:27 "When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer."
So now I would propose that "if that nation repents, then I will reconsider" be interpreted as follows:
- God knows peoples' response.
- The invitation is either the means of prompting repentance, or of inducing further hardness.
- The response is also part of God's plan.
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)
Edited by - Lee Merrill on 10/20/2001 9:37:33 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/20/2001 6:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee. Hi. You work hard on your good postings. Please forgive me for this, then. Sat. PM is on TV; and I'm afraid this might be off in right field. But, "Live...."
First, I like this bit of yours: "the evidence of sin here is the loss of freedom, not the exercise of freedom, these people are captive to sin".
Next, though I can't find the quote right now, that is probably related to the presence of created nature in man even after the fall. "Total depravity" is rarely understood in maximalist terms by Reformed folks I've known -- denying all cartoons. Usually, maybe, even vaguely detailed. Nature of being "in God's image" is there still. The "likeness" is missing, without Christ...and, then, needs to grow. And the task and calling of being mediators bringing creation to God in worship is still relevant.
So, I don't not wonder whether the familiar Calvinistic statements you made might need some reconsideration. I don't think they are compatible with what I've quoted from you above.
(I dread having to respond to what will probably be a very good response by you. But hopefully I'll be awake then, in a new day.)
quote:
.....God knows peoples' response.
.....The invitation is either the means of prompting repentance, or of inducing further hardness.
.....The response is also part of God's plan.
Not having done a worthy job of refuting this triad, I'll move on to something freestanding.
quote:
The Logos, God by essence, became man and messenger of the divine will, He let the most intimate ground of the goodness of the Father appear, if one may say so, and showed in himself the goal for which created beings were created. For it is for Christ, i.e., for the Christic mystery, that all time and all that is in time has received in Christ its beginning and its end. The union between the determined and the indetermined, the finite and the infinite, the limited and the non-limited, and also between Creator and creature, between rest and movement was conceived before the times. It found its accomplishment at the end of time, giving through itself fullness to the preknowledge of God. This was so in order that the beings who are mobile by nature should find him who is by essence absolutely immobile --- when there movement toward themselves and toward each other had reached its foal -- and also in order that they should gain, through experience, an active knowledge of him, in whom they were made worthy to find their rest and have in themselves, always unchangeable, the enjoyment of this knowledge. (Thunberg, P.79) (Maximus, Patr. Gr. 90, 621 BC.)
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/21/2001 9:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Greg,
Thank you for your kind words.
Dear Lee,
I appreciate the pleasantness of your response.
In answer to my statement, “I agree that no one can resist God’s counsel [boulay]. But everyone resists His will [thelay].”, you wrote:
quote:
I would say that exactly opposite, though Bob, that people do resist God's counsel (i.e. do not follow his guidelines and principles), but they do not, they cannot resist his will. Maybe you are using these words in a different sense than the way I do, though.
Lee, I was referring to God’s use of the words in the Greek NT. He used counsel and will in this way: The Greek word boulayma as found in Rom 9:19 “You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will [counsel boulaymati]?”, certainly shows that no one can resist His counsel.
The only places in Scripture that show anyone resists God’s counsel has to do with salvation for themselves. First, certain Pharisees and lawyers rejected God’s counsel for themselves, in Lk 7:30 “the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will [counsel tayn boulayn] of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.” The most important verse in my estimation is 2 Pe 3:9 where God doesn’t counsel any to perish, but all to have room for repentance: 2 Pe 3:9 “The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing [counseling boulomenos] any to perish but all to have room [cwraysai] for repentance.” In these 2 cases, we see that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected God’s counsel for themselves and in 2 Pe 3:9, we see that all who do not trust Christ as their savior reject the room for repentance that the Lord made room for in everyone.
In Eph 1:11, we see that God works [ta panta the all things – a specific all things which from the context of Eph 1 is the body of Christ. Cf. Eph 1:10 & 23]: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel [tayn boulayn] of His will.”
In Heb 6:17, we see that God’s counsel is immutable: “Thus God, determining [counseling - boulomenos] to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel [tays boulays], confirmed it by an oath.”
In Acts 2:23 & Acts 4:28, God used the word counsel again. Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose [counsel boulay] and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose [counsel boulay] determined before [predestined] to be done. I will give just 2 verses to show that God’s will is thwarted every day by man, first in general, and then, by Christians.
1 Ti 2:3,4 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires [wills thelei] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” God wills all men to be saved, but all men have resisted His will in this.
When writing to Christians, Paul described God’s will in this way: 1 Th 4:2-6 “For this is the will [thelayma] of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.”
Apparently you misunderstood my illustration of the clay and wax. Those 2 substances react to the heat of the sun in a specific way. Therefore, if God sees that Pharaoh has a heart that reacts to His grace like clay reacts to the sun, his heart will become hardened, because he thought of himself as a god. He was too pompous to humble himself before the God of Israel.
In the second illustration, which is from Heb 6:7,8, yes, it is the kind of seed in the ground. Some seed is hard and will not respond to the gracious water sprinkled on it, other seed is more responsive, and sprouts. It is the seeds’ fault.
quote:
But God made the clay, God made Pharoah, his inmost being (Ps. 139:13), so he is not just the incidental cause of Pharaoh's heart being hardened, but the ultimate cause, in a real sense. Which doesn't imply that God causes sin, but his hardening of Pharoah's heart makes Pharoah's heart unable to repent, it seems.
Ps. 139:13 is not referring to Pharaoh. Instead, David marvels at the depths of God’s knowledge and His providence. Throughout David’s gestation, Yahweh watched the unfolding of the marvelous process He had set in motion when He created Adam and Eve with the power of procreation. Yet, surely He was not merely observing, but carefully watching over David, forerunner of the promised Messiah who would sit on David’s throne.
What does it mean – David’s features were written in God’s book? This is usually taken as a reference to the book of life, which is then understood to mean (in light of Rev 21:27) that God determined David’s eternal destiny at the moment of his conception. However, the book of life is not the only book mentioned in Scripture. Revelation 20:12 refers to “the books”, echoing Daniel 7:10. In addition to the book of life, God has other books in which He records People’s deeds and also the experiences of His people (Psa 56:8). There is even a “book of Yahweh” concerning the natural activities of animals (Isa 34:16).
We believe that David is referring to God’s careful record keeping concerning His beloved, even numbering the hairs on our heads. As cited above, Ecclesiastes 11:5 infers that fetal development is in some sense “the action of God”, and our verse (16) stresses that it takes place over a period of time (taking yamim adverbially, as in LXX).
We find it remarkable that those who oppose the open view of God and its resultant free agency for man would seek to buttress their argument by attempting to cite this text to support the notion that God made these determinations when David was in utero. This is especially curious since they declare in other places that all such determinations were made “before the foundation of the world.”
What then is the sense of the final clause of verse 16, “And one of those [features] is His.”? What “feature” of the fetus pertains especially to God? We believe this refers to the inner man, the soul-spirit. Yahweh is “the God of the spirits of all flesh” (Num 16:22; 27:16), not merely of the elect. Certainly the spirit of every son of Israel would be His in a special way simply by virtue of the covenant. Paul establishes in Romans 5:18 that through Christ’s righteous act all men are redeemed from the sin of Adam recorded in Romans 5:12. In that sense, the spirit of the fetus would truly be His at least until death ensues from the revival of sin (Rom 7:11). David himself trusted that his deceased child’s soul was where he would be going (2 Sam 12:23). “The spirit [neshamah] of man is Yahweh’s lamp, searching the chambers of the belly” (Pro 20:27).
Finally, it must be in the spirit that Jesus Christ illuminates every man who enters the world: “That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world” (John 1:9).
In contrast, taking the qere reading l’, “not”, we would render, “and not one of them [yet] existed [in its mature state]”. In other words, God could perceive all of David’s features when they did not possess discrete forms. This would be similar to the statement the Lord made to Jeremiah in 1:4,5: “Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you (God can read DNA better than we can read a book.); Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.’” He uses anyone He chooses to prophesy, e.g., Baalam.
God, looking upon David as a mere shapeless mass, could view him as the person he would become. To Yahweh, Creator of all, the individual’s genetic makeup is an open book. Certainly, if we mere human beings can reasonably anticipate the results of our efforts, God in His inestimable intelligence, can foresee David’s physical and mental characteristics and so deem him a suitable forerunner of the King.
His ability in this regard is the same for each one of us as we are conceived in our mother’s womb. So we can jubilantly exclaim with the psalmist: “And for me, how precious are Your thoughts, O God how mighty their essence.”
For more information on this subject, go to my web-page, biblicalanswers.com. Click on “Predestination.” Under “Books & articles about predestination.”, or, click on The Knowledge of God in Psalm 139.
quote:
I believe that thelayma may also mean "unalterable, unthwartable purpose" (Jn. 6:39, for instance). But you just seemed to have confirmed my point, am I misunderstanding you here? No one, not even Pharaoh, can resist God's boulay, thus Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's act, primarily, not Pharaoh's.
Lee, I disagree with you on thelayma. Here’s why. When Jesus said to them in Mat 19:28, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”, there was one problem. Judas didn’t follow Him all the way. Therefore, he will not sit on one of the twelve thrones.
Let’s continue in John 6:37-39: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” When He says, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,” this “all” refers to the apostles. Notice how John 17:6 and 18:9 substantiate this. John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.” John 18:8-9 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore , if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me [He is quoting John 6:37-40 and 10:29.], I have lost none.” What does this mean? John 6:44 says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws [helkusay drags] him.” Yet John 12:32 says, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, [will draw, drag, all to Myself, pantas helkusw pros emauton].” The way the Father draws them is by teaching, because John 6:45 says, “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” If they will listen and learn from God, they will be drawn by the Father. Once they are drawn, they will be given to the Son. This group of apostles is the little flock of Luke 12:22,32.
At that time, Judas was included. “Then He said to His disciples, ‘Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on... 32 Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.’” Was He referring to Matthew 19:28, “you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”? There is a strong condition. In Luke 22:3,4, Judas had already left. “Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.” Then, Christ spoke to the remaining disciples in verses 28-30, [In contrast to Judas,] “you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” The twelve are apostles of the circumcision with the earthly hope of the kingdom which was promised to David. Our hope is heavenly.
God bless you Lee,
Bob Hill
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/24/2001 4:46 PM (GMT -6) | | If all things were decided before the foundation of the world, or before age-times, then God would not have freedom. He would be helpless. He could not respond to us in any way.
But my God is able. He is able to have passion. He is able to change. That makes Him mutable and passible in His actions although He is immutable in His character.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 10/24/2001 9:47:34 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/25/2001 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If all things were decided before the foundation of the world, or before age-times, then God would not have freedom. He would be helpless. He could not respond to us in any way.
Still processing your previous reply, Bob, but here is a thought on this comment:
If God can choose before events, that seems to me to be more free, than if God has to choose after events.
Scripture seems to say that God is acting, not reacting, even to our decisions, his choice is still the source of our choices.
Jer 10:23 "I know, O Lord, that a man’s life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."
God bless you,
Lee
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