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blakeolson
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 10/21/2001 10:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | In a discussion with some friends of mine, they brought up one point that I would be interested to see what you all thought of.
The point basically goes like this: God is the creator of time, and therefore is not bound by time. Hence, he is everywhere, past present and future; and must know what’s going to happen because he is there too...
What do you think?
Blake
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/21/2001 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome to the site Blake.
This position assumes that God can be the Lord of time only if time is UNREAL. It also equates "time" with "sequence" -- yet it presupposes sequence in saying God CREATED time.
Read up on the Sequence and Relativity Theory for more on this issue.
Blessings
doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/24/2001 4:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Blake,
I think they got it indirectly from Socrates, and yet many Christians don’t sympathize with Calvinism, but still believe that a solution to the problem of God’s repentance in over twenty passages in the Bible is found in what Paul Tillich borrowed from Greek philosophy: “The eternal now, that God is not in time.” I have been studying this topic for 40 years and have not found one place that says God is outside of time or even alludes to that idea. Instead, the Bible shows God working with us in time. Passages like 2 Ti 1:9, “who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began”, and Tit 1:2 “in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began”, should be translated, “before age times” (pro cronwn aiwniwn).
Instead of Tillich making this statement originally, it was Plato. Plato was the one that influenced Augustine the most through another philosopher, Plotinus. I think Augustine, who lived from 354-430 AD, was the most influential theologian who ever lived. Most scholars in the ancient world of Augustine understood Plato’s concept of God. He had influenced almost all the schools of philosophy of that time. Plato explained God’s immutability this way in, A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus. “Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that those which are well made and in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. . . . But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . Then does he (God) change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily . . . be for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself.” (Plato. Plato V, Republic I, Loeb Classical Library, Book II, pp. 191-197.)
This argument was written by Plato and later adopted by Augustine through the writings of the Neoplatonists, and especially Plotinus. Let me emphasize again, what Plato said at the end of his dialogue. He basically said that since God is perfect, he is not altered or moved by anything else. Here is Plato’s conclusion about God’s immutability again. “. . . the gods themselves are incapable of change . . . Then God . . . neither changes”.
Plotinus (about 205-269), made a journey to the East and returned with an arsenal of monistic ideas against the rapidly-growing Christian church in the Roman Empire. To claim the Greek philosophical heritage he included some ideas from Plato, his system of contemplation was identical with the yoga of Hindu monism. Plotinus failed to rally the Roman Empire against Jesus Christ, but he was rediscovered and introduced through the back door many centuries later.” Plotinus lived about 150 years before Augustine. He was very influential upon Augustine. The concept of God being in the state of Eternal Now (Atemporal), or being outside of time, was received from Plato through Plotinus. Let’s examine the parallel thought’s of Plotinus and Augustine. We’ll see Augustine was greatly influenced by the thoughts of Plotinus.
The concept that there is no past or future only present
Plotinus
“seeing all this one sees eternity in seeing a life that abides in the same, and always has the all present to it, not now this, and then again that, but all things at once, and not now some things, and then again others, but a partless completion . . . Necessarily there will be no ‘was’ about it, for what is there that was for it and has passed away? Nor any ‘will be,’ for what will be for it? So there remains for it only to be in its being just what it is. That, then, which was not, and will not be, but is only, which has being which is static by not changing to the ‘will be,’ nor ever having changed, this is eternity.” (Plotinus. Plotinus III, Ennead, The Loeb Classical Library, Book III, Chapter 7, p. 305, trans. by A.H. Armstrong)
Augustine
“so that of those things which emerge in time, the future indeed, are not yet, and the present are now, and the past no longer are; but all of these are by Him comprehended in His stable and eternal presence . . . but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness” (The City of God, Book XI, Chapter 21, p. 364). Augustine believed that God exists in an eternal present in which the future and the past are comprehended as existing now. Plotinus said the eternal does not have a “was” (past) or a “will be”(future) but only an “is”(present). Since God exists in an eternal state the past, present and future are viewed as existing in that present state at the same time as the present.
The concept that in the Eternal Now there is no change
Plotinus
“which is static by not changing to the ‘will be,’ nor ever having changed,” (Ennead, p.305)
Augustine
“but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness” (City of God, p. 364). The concept of immutability again plays a crucial role in the development of the doctrine of intemporality. For God to be immutable the future could add no knowledge to what he already knows. This unchangeableness would be present in the eternal now.
The concept of having no transition of thought
Plotinus
The life, then, which belongs to that which exists and is in being, all together and full, completely without extension or interval, is that which we are looking for, eternity (Ennead, p.305).
Augustine
“For he does not pass from this to that by transition of thought, but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness” (The City of God, p. 364). Since no new knowledge can be possible for God there is no transition of thought. Again, Plotinus believed that there is no extension or interval of thought in eternity.
Augustine’s idea of immutability was strictly through reason, not Scripture. Augustine’s sources for his doctrine of the immutability of God are from his philosophical and pagan religious background. We find traces of the popular pagan religions in Augustine’s theology. Augustine received his doctrine of the immutability of God directly from pagan religious philosophy. This doctrine influenced Augustine in the development of other important doctrines of the attributes of God including predestination, foreknowledge, impassibility and intemporality.
Although Augustine, was raised by a Christian mother, he wandered from the Christian faith. He developed a love for philosophy. Even though he loved philosophy he still superstitiously clung to the some aspects of the faith of his mother. One sect, the Manichees combined the rationalism of the philosophers with the appropriate “God-names” like the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, and thus persuaded him to become a follower of their sect. This lasted for nine years.
The Manicheans stressed rational inquiry over authority. Augustine agreed with this method of ascertaining truth. Augustine also believed at one time that, in substance, the Holy Scriptures were unworthy to be compared with the wisdom of the Manicheans. The Manicheans disliked the Old Testament because it portrayed an angry emotional God who was considered by the Neoplatonists to be mutable or subject to change. By now, this Platonic conception of God was common in almost all of the Greek philosophies of Augustine’s age: Eugene TeSelle states: “People acquainted with philosophical notions of God were uncomfortable with the anthropomorphisms of the Old Testament (not only with its descriptions of God but its suggestions that God has human emotions, or changes his mind)” (TeSelle, Augustine the Theologian. New York: Herder and Herder, 1970, p.30).
Augustine was torn between his mother’s religion and the rationalism he admired in the philosophies of the world. In his travels Augustine went to Milan. The Bishop of Milan was Ambrose. He offered a solution to Augustine’s dilemma: a reconciliation between philosophy and Catholicism. Only after Ambrose allegorized those Old Testament Scriptures that revealed a mutable God was Augustine able to accept the Catholic faith. Ambrose allegorized or spiritualized the offending Old Testament Scripture until Augustine could accept the Christian God. He later wrote, “For those absurdities which in those Scriptures were wont to offend me, after I had heard divers of them expounded properly, I referred now to the depth of the mystery: yea and the authority of that Book appeared so much the more venerable, and so much more worthy of our religious credit.” (Augustine. St. Augustine's Confessions I, Loeb Classical Library, Book VI, Chapter V, p. 285.) Then, Augustine turned to Scriptures after the absurdities were “expounded properly. . . . Seeing therefore mankind would prove too weak to find out the truth by the way of evident reason, and for this cause was there need of the authority of Holy Writ.”
Although Augustine later had a high regard for Scripture, he allowed reason to first dictate his ideas about God’s attributes. Then, the details were to be filled by Scriptures. The most damaging presupposition, which has harmed Christianity the most, was the immutability of God. This doctrine of immutability influenced his doctrines of impassibility, predestination, foreknowledge, and intemporality of God. Later, these doctrines were absorbed by Calvin. This influence of Augustine over Calvin is attested by Calvinists. For example, Benjamin Warfield wrote, “The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers—for the Reformation was, as from the spiritual point of view a great revival of Augustinianism.” (Warfield, Benjamin. Calvin and Augustine, The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1956, p.22))
In Augustine’s own word’s: “And for this I rejoiced also, for that the Old Scriptures of the Law and the prophets, were laid before me now, to be perused, not with that eye to which they seemed most absurd before, whenas I misliked thy holy ones for thinking so and so: but indeed they did not think so. And with joyful heart I heard Ambrose in his sermons to the people, most diligently oftentimes recommend this text for a rule unto them, The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life: whilst those things which taken according to the letter seemed to teach perverse doctrines, he spiritually laid open to us, having taken off the veil of the mystery; teaching nothing in it that offended me...” (St. Augustine's Confessions, Book VI, Chapter IV, p. 259). Augustine also explained his reasoning which reconciled his conversion to the Catholic faith: “For first of all the things began to appear unto me as possible to be defended : and the Catholic faith, in defense of which I thought nothing could be answered to the Manichees’ arguments, I now concluded with myself, might well be maintained without absurdity: especially after I had heard one or two hard places of the Old Testament resolved now and then; which when I understood literally, I was slain. Many places therefore of those books having been spiritually expounded. (Book V, Chapter XIV, p. 259)
What were those literal interpretations that Augustine could not accept literally. One of them was the mutability of God, that God changes, that God could be influenced and change his mind from one time to the next in order to adjust to a changeable mankind. In his Confessions, Augustine explained what literal interpretations were unacceptable. Among those foolish arguments that Augustine could not answer in defense of Christianity he wrote: “And because God commanded them one thing then, and these another thing now for certain temporal respects; and yet those of both ages were servants to the same righteousness, whereas they may observe in one man, and in one day, and in one house, different things to be fit for different members, and one thing to be lawful now, which in an hour hence is not so; and something to be permitted or commanded in one corner, which is forbidden or punished in another. Is Justice thereupon various or mutable. (Book III, Chapter VII, p. 125)
Remember, the Manicheans believed God could not be mutable and retain his perfection. Augustine accepted this philosophy as true and attempted to prove this doctrine in Scripture. In The Morals of the Catholic Church, Augustine explained the doctrines of the Old Testament that were so absurd. In explaining his dispute with the Manichaeans we observe his agreement with them about the literal interpretation of the Old Testament: “We do not worship a God who repents, or is envious, or needy, or cruel, or who takes pleasure in the blood men or beasts, or is pleased with guilt or crime, or whose possession of the earth is limited to a little corner of it. These and such like are the silly notions...the fancies of old women or of children...and in those by whom these passages are literally understood . . . And should any one suppose that anything in God’s substance or nature can suffer change or conversion, he will be held guilty of wild profanity. (Oats, W.J., On the Morals of the Catholic Church, Basic Writings of Saint Augustine, New York: Random House Publishers, 1948, p. 327)
Even though the Old Testament literally shows a mutable, changeable God, Augustine agreed with the Manicheans that a mutable God was totally unacceptable. In this conflict between the Platonic doctrine of immutability and the literal interpretation of Scriptures what had to change? Augustine’s answer was that the literal interpretation of Scripture had to change. For Augustine the plain narratives of Scripture had to be reinterpreted by spiritual or allegorical methods. The Manicheans knew the Old Testament revealed a God who was mutable or could repent, and they rejected it. Since the Platonists believed that God was immutable this idea of God repenting was a source of ridicule for the Catholic Church. Augustine was so embarrassed by these arguments that he chose to reinterpret Scripture rather than depart from Platonic philosophy.
Did Augustine understand God as immutable from a study of the Scriptures. No! Augustine was reasoning about God and saw an immutable God in his mind. However, his reasoning was influenced. Augustine received the concept of the unchangeable or immutable God from the Neoplatonists. This concept passed right into his Christian theology without change. It is true that Augustine utilized Scripture in his defense of the immutability of God, but Scripture was only used to buttress his rationalistic thought of God. It was a secondary proof: “Those things which our faith holds and which reason in whatever way has traced out, are fortified by the testimonies of the divine Scriptures, so that those who by reason of feebler intellect are not able to comprehend these things, may believe the divine authority, and so may deserve to know . . . Accordingly that God is unchangeable.” (Concerning the Nature of the Good, Basic Writings of St. Augustine, New York: Random House, p. 440.) Notice, Augustine disclosed that reason traced out the doctrine of immutability.
I have found that human reason has led us to horrible results. God’s Word is the foundation and edifice of truth.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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