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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 10/27/2001 1:33 PM (GMT -6) |   | I'm currently seriously discussing the idea of irresistable grace with a bunch of Calvinistic Piper-disciples. Please supply me with any and all verses that show God's grace as being resistable.
Thanks.
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/27/2001 2:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 10/27/2001 3:01 PM (GMT -6) | | If you check out the website itself, not the discussion board, you should be able to find a list of passages which support the open view. Some of these will also have to do with God's will being thwarted. It only takes one of these to disqualify the claim that God's will is irresistible. One that comes to me off the top of my head is with regard to the pharisees who resisted God's will by refusing John's baptism.
The whole concept of sin really hangs in the balance of whether God' s will can be resisted. We know that the Holy Spirit can be grieved, there's lots of them....
I'm sure Greg has many more at the tip of his tongue....
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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GODesteem
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 10/31/2001 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Greg wrote:
"I'm currently seriously discussing the idea of irresistable grace with a bunch of Calvinistic Piper-disciples. Please supply me with any and all verses that show God's grace as being resistable."
Benjamin's reply:
Hi Greg! I happen to be a firm believer in irresistable grace, and have a feeling that you are not understanding the concept. NOONE believes that people cannot resist God's grace! This doctrine is specifically talking about electing grace - not about the general idea of people resisting the Holy Spirit. By irresistable, it simply means that there is no resistance to God's grace, because the whole act of regeneration REMOVES the resistance! So many people come up with a complete misrepresentation of the Reformed position, and I will happily expound on the Biblical evidence for the doctrine. You mentioned "Calvinistic-Piper" disciples? Well if you go to www.desiringgod.org, the staff have put together a summary booklet on the doctrines of grace (Five Points), which includes a very helpful discussion on "Irresistable Grace."
God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure! | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 10/31/2001 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Godsteem: a rose is a rose is a rose. By any other name, it smells the same. You may not THINK that your beliefs mean that people cannot resist grace, but I've read the books and I've read most of Piper's stuff and I believe it does mean that one cannot resist the grace of God. It is, of course, a matter of debate, and it is a debate that I have been in before, so I am not wanting to do it again. But, in my opinion it does mean one cannot resist God's grace...
Edited by - writerdad on 10/31/2001 5:17:29 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 10/31/2001 12:20 PM (GMT -6) | | By the way, I know several reformed believers who do believe it means that, so I would suggest that you simply represent yourself. To say "No one," me thinks steps over the line. As I said, I know several reformed believers who do, because they believe it is within the providence of God to do such a thing and, besides, God prestined all of us, so what does it matter, we don't have choice anyway...
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/31/2001 1:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I know several reformed believers who do believe it means that...
I believe that it means irresistable!
[quote]God prestined all of us, so what does it matter, we don't have choice anyway...[quote]
We don't have a choice until we submit to him, I believe.
"If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!"
Real choice is possible, but only within the context of submission...
"Love God, and then do as you please" (Augustine, my quote from memory)
God bless you,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 11/1/2001 2:20 AM (GMT -6) | | "real choice is possible, but only in the context of submission." I am sorry, Lee, but that makes no sense to me. If one HAS to submiss, there is no choice...
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/1/2001 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | For writerdad:
quote:
"real choice is possible, but only in the context of submission." I am sorry, Lee, but that makes no sense to me. If one HAS to submiss, there is no choice...
wd.....if Lee means the same as saying that true obedience to God's will is the only situation where freedom exists (versus slavery) then AMEN! Our created nature--that which is God's logos/logoi (I am a slow learner) for the meaning of this world--is "good" (Gen.) and according to that nature we have LOTS of freedom, and potentialities to explore!!! Freedom means being able to follow God's will freely, and to be unencombered (Think of freedom of movement for a gymnast!) to act freely according to that nature.
To venture toward the absured but funny... A gymnast must "submit" to gravity -- that is her nature! But/and all of what she does can actually depend on that part of her nature. (How fun would baseball be with no gravity? Would Sammy Sosa enjoy it? Would we notice him?)
St. John of Damascus said something to the effect that Free Will is not deliberative. PotOnWheel says Free Will is creative. (I steal.) Deliberative will, according to John of Dam. is when you have to go back and forth and say something like: "Should I lie to my boss or to my wife?" That may be "choice", but it is not Fredom at all!
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 11/1/2001 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's what I see:
metaphysical freedom = uncoerced action
religious freedom = unrestricted (undistracted) worship (obedience)
What gets confusing is when one person is speaking metaphysically and the other religiously.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 11/1/2001 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | metaphysically the value is independence
religiously the value is Absolute dependence
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/1/2001 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Somebody's tuition money is going to a good cause.
Thanks, Modes! | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 11/1/2001 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | POW: if Lee means true freedom, I totally agree. But that not what i was refering to. I was refering to the choice of whether or not to accept God's grace, which I believe is a different subject...
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/1/2001 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | writerdad: POW--if Lee means true freedom, I totally agree. But that not what i was refering to. I was refering to the choice of whether or not to accept God's grace, which I believe is a different subject...
pow: I've read where Pelagius was not all that Pelagian.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/1/2001 4:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's an email I recently recieved:
I would first like to say that i would much rather discuss this in person
because i don't want a quarrel to begin, nor do i want to hurt anyones
feelings, and i feel that email is not a good forum for this kind of
discussion because of the fact that it is an emotionally detatched
environment and i care about you guys. I hope that this is useful and
edifying to you because i write this praying that in some way you can be
built up through it. Writing it has helped me, i don't think that you know
that i used to be a very strong Arminian, but after looking at the
scriptures intently, this is what i present to you as what i have learned.
One thing that you wrote was that people who believe that God chooses always
believe that God chose them. This is not true. This doctrine has been
extremely humbling to me and to many others, i know that it has caused some
to doubt their salvation, including Martin Luther, but it is also massivley
reassuring, more so i've found than the belief that it was all me chosing
God. I tried to put lots of scripture in here, that's the important stuff.
I hope that this is useful to you guys, and that if there are any more
problems or questions that we will be able to discuss them in person, i
would love to talk any time, but i want you to know first and foremost that
my main concearn is not that you believe in predestination, but that you
grow in Christ and know that you cannot loose your salvation.
The idea that God only predestined the
church and did not have control over who would be a part of that church is
not in scripture,(Rev 17:8 The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not
been written in the book of life from the creation of the world...) this
states that the book of life has certain names that were there before the
creation of the world.
There is no scripture to support the idea that there is a mold into which a
person puts himself, on the contrary, scripture says that we are
transformed(Rom 12:2), transformation means that something outside of your
will that is shaping you in a way that is contrary to your will. I do agree
with you that if we are to be conformed it must be on God's terms, and what
are those terms, Eph 2:8,9 it's by God's grace, it's not dependent upon you
being good enough to choose him, Romans 9:11,16,18,22, it also says in Eph
2:8 the faith that you have does not come from you, you are not good enough
to have that kind of faith Rom 2:11 (no one seeks God therefore no one can
have faith without God giving it to them) Ephesians 2:1 says that you were
dead in your sins and God raised you to life. A dead man cannot do anything,
they cant ask someone to come revive them, they sit there dead, until
someone with the power love and compassion to save them comes and does it.
You and i have no prayer to save ourselves, we can't do it, God has to do it
by His grace(John 6:44). I would also say that looking at the parable of
the sower, the person cannot decide what kind of soil they will be any more
than i can decide where i will be born. The soil dosen't move or make
decisions, it's just there. Some soil got tramplemed, but it didn't choose
to be trampled, not did the other soil choose to be with the weed, or the
other one out in the sun, or even the good soil to be capable of bearing
fruit. The kind of predestination that the bible describes is that man has
sinned Romans 3:23, man is so sinful that they cannot escape their sin Rom
3:9, Eph 2:3-6(God had to raise them as His work, not theirs), they do not
seek God, Rom 3:11, this has happened to everyone Rom 3:23, 5:12,17, our
being freed from this depends on God's grace and God's call(His call of
grace) (Notice that in Romans 9:11 the purpose of God's predestination is so
that salvation would not be by works, but only through God's grace, "because
of Him who calls"), Rom 9:16, 18, and God is not wrong in not choosing some
because of our sinfulness and ultimatley because Rom 9:22, so that our
salvation is not based on works, but on the grace of God and the Spirit of
God who reveals the Son of God who paid for our sin. We do nothing, we just
praise God becuase he is just, and good and loving, wise in all that He
does, and He does all for His name sake. (1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of
God I am what I am) So yes, we choose God, but not because of our goodness,
because God has allowed us to, He has not blinded our eyes, and has chosen
to show us the light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ-2 Cor 4:4, and
therefore from our perspective we choose God, but from God's perspective, we
are chosen and eternally loved, and there is nothing that can take us out of
the Father's hand whatever happens, we cannot loose our salvation by choice.
The people who obey Christ and fall away were never saved, Jesus said he did
not know the people who fell away in Matt 7:21-23, and Romans 8:31-33 says
thhat God justifies us and no one can condemn us- His chosen ones-Matt
22:14(everyone is invited, few are chosen), John 13:18 Jesus knew those He
had chosen and Judas wasn't one of them, and John 17:12 says that Jesus
protected them all, and does protect us (it says that later) so that we
cannot fall away, he insures that we(His chosen) stay in Christ, 1 Cor 1:30,
"It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus. I'm going to end this
by giving you one of my favorite verses, which is something that reassures
me whenever i wonder about these things(Jesus has loved us eternally and
will be there to protect us from falling away John 10:25-30:
I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's
name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My
sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them
eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my
hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can
snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
Any responses?
--Greg, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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GODesteem
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 11/2/2001 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad wrote:
"Godsteem: a rose is a rose is a rose. By any other name, it smells the same. You may not THINK that your beliefs mean that people cannot resist grace, but I've read the books and I've read most of Piper's stuff and I believe it does mean that one cannot resist the grace of God. It is, of course, a matter of debate, and it is a debate that I have been in before, so I am not wanting to do it again. But, in my opinion it does mean one cannot resist God's grace..."
My response:
I was not attempting to debate a thing. I was simply trying to clear up yet another misunderstanding of the Reformed doctrine. Since you stated that you have read much of Piper's material, let me quote the portion I was alluding to:
"The doctrine of irresistible grace does not mean that every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.
In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21)."
The actual definition of irresistable grace is as follows:
"More specifically irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved. If our doctrine of total depravity is true, there can be no salvation without the reality of irresistible grace. If we are dead in our sins, totally unable to submit to God, then we will never believe in Christ unless God overcomes our rebellion.
Someone may say, "Yes, the Holy Spirit must draw us to God, but we can use our freedom to resist or accept that drawing." Our answer is: except for the continual exertion of saving grace, we will always use our freedom to resist God. That is what it means to be "unable to submit to God." If a person becomes humble enough to submit to God it is because God has given that person a new, humble nature. If a person remains too hard hearted and proud to submit to God, it is because that person has not been given such a willing spirit. But to see this most persuasively we should look at the Scriptures.
In John 6:44 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." This drawing is the sovereign work of grace without which no one can be saved from their rebellion against God. Again some say, "He draws all men, not just some." But this simply evades the clear implication of the context that the Father's "drawing" is why some believe and not others.
Specifically, John 6:64-65 says, "'But there are some of you that do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
Notice two things.
First, notice that coming to Jesus is called a gift. It is not just an opportunity. Coming to Jesus is "given" to some and not to others.
Second, notice that the reason Jesus says this, is to explain why "there are some who do not believe." We could paraphrase it like this: Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe on him in spite of all the teaching and invitations he received. And because he knew this, he explains it with the words, No one comes to me unless it is given to him by my Father. Judas was not given to Jesus. There were many influences on his life for good. But the decisive, irresistible gift of grace was not given.
2 Timothy 2:24-25 says, "The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth."
Here, as in John 6:65 repentance is called a gift of God. Notice, he is not saying merely that salvation is a gift of God. He is saying that the prerequisites of salvation are also a gift. When a person hears a preacher call for repentance he can resist that call. But if God gives him repentance he cannot resist because the gift is the removal of resistance. Not being willing to repent is the same as resisting the Holy Spirit. So if God gives repentance it is the same as taking away the resistance. This is why we call this work of God "irresistible grace"."
As I said earlier, irresistable grace refers to God removing the resistant, proud heart of stone, and replacing it with a stone of flesh, which is inexorably drawn in repentance to the greatest treasure in the universe, Jesus Christ!
Benjamin Musclow
Edited by - writerdad on 10/31/2001 5:17:29 PM
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 11/2/2001 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Godsteem: the problem has always been this: what stone is God moving? The stone that would never choose God. Therefore, by logic, God is doing something that a person would never want him to do (under reformed thinking, because a person would never choose God) and God is doing it without the person's permission, meaning God is violating the person's will by doing it without asking. So, again, I find your argument fulite. John 17:3 Harold
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 11/2/2001 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass,
The two verses in Revelation show the idea that their names were never written in the book of life because they never believed.
Rev 13:8 “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Rev 17:8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
These verses show that some people never had their names written in the book of life. In order to have their names written, they would have to believe in the gospel that God told them. These people never believed.
Another thing about these verses in Revelation must be observed. Both of these prepositional phrases, “from the foundation of the world”, modify when the names were not written in the Book of Life. Many have never believed. Because they never believed, their names were never written in the Book of Life. Some had their names written in the Book of Life. If they did not overcome, some were threatened with having their names blotted out: Rev 3:5 “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 11/2/2001 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass,
Irresistible grace disintegrates when we look at the Scripture. In irresistible grace, the Holy Spirit supposedly applies salvation to every sinner that He supposedly intended to save. They say the unregenerate will not respond to the call to repentance because they are unwilling and unable to respond. They say the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect sinner so he becomes a child of God and is given a spiritual life. Then the elect spontaneously come to Christ of their own free choice. But, we find a strong word in John 12:32. (Gk helkuso means to drag.) Notice, Christ will drag all unto Himself: John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself [pantas helkuso pros emauton].
Also, how could we explain a conditional election such as is found in 2 Pet 1:10: “Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.” In the Revelation post I showed that some were in danger of having their names blotted out of the book of life.
We also see in 1 Tim 2:4 that God “wills [thelei, wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Also, remember, under total depravity 2 Pet 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not counseling any to perish but all to have room for repentance. [me boulomenos tinas apolesthai, alla pantas eis metanoian choresai]
Finally, Psa 32 says: “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit. 3 When I kept silent, my bones grew old through my groaning all the day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah” Then, in the 8th and 9th verses we see God’s desire. God does not want mule-like servants: 8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will guide you with My eye. 9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, else they will not come near you.” Irresistible pulling by God Grace would be exactly what God spoke against, here.
From this we see God doesn’t want what the Calvinist describes. He wants relationships of mutual affection. He loved us first. He wants us to love Him freely. He doesn’t want us to have a love based on force. That’s no love at all. So, in conclusion, He wants all men to be saved. He doesn’t want a bunch of bridled mules. He created men to be free so they would be able to freely accept or refuse His plan to give them salvation. Now, if this is true, then what? It’s up to us to love God and let him display in us a life fit for evangelism.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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