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RyanMartin
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Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 11/25/2001 12:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | My question is if God foreknows the existence of every human being. I've been thinking in terms of the open view, and trying to understand whether or not God knows every person that will come into existence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it seem like he would not foreknow the existence of every human, because birth is a direct result of a moral decision made by two free agents. Am I wrong?
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/25/2001 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | WOW! That's a GREAT question!!!
The bible tells us that God foreknew of each of us since the beginning of time. Jesus knew of EACH of us as he died on the cross. He died for us corporately but also INDIVIDUALLY (cool, huh?) However, I believe God doesn't know exactly when or where each person will be born, but God does foreknow that each person WILL be born.
I think the sperm and egg create the biological composition of a person; then, after the embryo is created, God injects a soul. Maybe WHO we are born as isn't known by God but only THAT our soul will become flesh at some point???
This reasoning would actually help me to understand how it is that some people are born into an environment of blessing while others are born into horrid circumstances. Maybe God doesn't pick and choose directly what our circumstance will be per se, but simply injects a soul into a newly created embryo randomly
I'm looking forward to the answers people will post in response to your question 
trosie
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 11/25/2001 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
think the sperm and egg create the biological composition of a person; then, after the embryo is created, God injects a soul. Maybe WHO we are born as isn't known by God but only THAT our soul will become flesh at some point???
LOL! Injects a soul. That was really cute . I would leave that one up to science. Your endeavor is appreciated, though.
God Bless!
("INJECTS A SOUL")
Edited by - faithfullservent on 11/25/2001 11:28:46 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/25/2001 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
LOL! Injects a soul. That was really cute. I would leave that one up to science. Your endeavor is appreciated, though.
God Bless!
("INJECTS A SOUL")
Well, it seems as though I am giving some people some good laughs lately on this site and I for that I am pleased.
Faithfulservant,you stated that my endeavor is appreciated, now how about your answer to the question Does God foreknow the existence of every human being
I think this is an interesting question.
trosie
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chance
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 11/25/2001 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | No, God does not foreknow the existence of every human being. That is no problem for me. Is this a problem for you Ryan? If so, why? I remember Bruce Ware bringing this up in his paper at the ETS Conference and I thought it was his weakest point against the open view.
trosie said
quote:
The bible tells us that God foreknew of each of us since the beginning of time.
No it doesn't. I believe you are getting this idea from a mistranslation of Ps 139:16. This is the translation I believe you have in mind.
quote:
(NKJV) Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When [as yet there were] none of them.
Ps 139:13-16 is about God's knowledge of the psalmist in the womb. I believe a better translation is the following.
quote:
Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
Doc covers Ps 139 in his book God of the Possible and agrees with the explanation and translation I just gave. There is a good article on Ps 139 found at the following address.
http://biblicalanswers.com/predestination/God's%20Knowledge%20in%20Ps%20139%20Portrait.htm
you said
quote:
Jesus knew of EACH of us as he died on the cross.
I do not believe that based on what I said above.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 11/25/2001 11:59:32 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/25/2001 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jesus knew of EACH of us as he died on the cross.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that based on what I said above
Hmmmm Between this thread, and the thread I started with my daughter's question regarding death, I am beginning to be challenged in my understanding of the open view. Being challenged in my present understandings and beliefs is what makes this site so helpful for me!
trosie
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 11/25/2001 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Trosie! I have no answer. I appreciate you attempt, eer endeavor. It is over my head. You are the master rapper, not me, so you are on the ball right now. I'll try back here in a couple of years (by that time my theology/philosophy/science should radically be developed.)
Maybe the question has something to do with the free will of agent B & G being inline with Gods Will, and this enables God to know perfectly what free agent B & G are going to do and what the result will be.
Besides that I have no clue.
God Bless you Trosie
Paul
Edited by - faithfullservent on 11/26/2001 12:55:33 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 11/25/2001 10:57 PM (GMT -6) | | I think the following passages just from the Psalms and Proverbs at least imply that God does not have a set deadline for every person who has ever lived.
quote:
Psalms 21:4 He asked life from You, [and] You gave [it] to him -- Length of days forever and ever.
Psalms 55:23 But You, O God, shall bring them down to the pit of destruction; Bloodthirsty and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; But I will trust in You.
Psalms 90:10 The days of our lives [are] seventy years; And if by reason of strength [they are] eighty years, Yet their boast [is] only labor and sorrow; For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Psalms 102:23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days.
Psalms 109:8 Let his days be few, [And] let another take his office. [This prayer always makes me think of Bill Clinton ]
Proverbs 3:2 For length of days and long life And peace they will add to you.
Proverbs 9:11 For by me your days will be multiplied, And years of life will be added to you.
Proverbs 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongs days, But the years of the wicked will be shortened
Proverbs 28:16 A ruler who lacks understanding [is] a great oppressor, [But] he who hates covetousness will prolong [his] days.
And of course there is the story of Hezekiah in Is 38.
quote:
Isaiah 38:1-5 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD: 'Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.' " 2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, 3 and said, "Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done [what is] good in Your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying, 5 "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years.
After reading these passages do you still think that God knows when every person will die?
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/26/2001 2:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Ryan-
If God eternally knows all possibilities, then he eternally knew you might be born or might not be (as well as knowing all the decisions you might make). In either case, God (as Doc’s infinite intelligence argument goes) would be perfectly prepared for it as though it were the only thing that could have happened.
Tom
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/26/2001 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | This is definitely a copout on my part in not taking on the horns of this problem directly as many have been doing above. But here is my two cents.
The Church has historically considered communion (as evidenced even in a few hymns that are very well know among Protestants) as a fellowship of all the saints and angels on earth and in heaven. That translates into a sharing or participation in the LIFE of Christ by those alive, those with the Lord, AND those yet unborn.
Something to chew on.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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chance
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Total Posts : 157
| Posted 11/26/2001 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | POW said
quote:
The Church has historically considered communion (as evidenced even in a few hymns that are very well know among Protestants) as a fellowship of all the saints and angels on earth and in heaven. That translates into a sharing or participation in the LIFE of Christ by those alive, those with the Lord, AND those yet unborn.
It just doesn't follow that because communion is participated in by all saints that those saints who do not yet exist (and therefore, are neither on earth or in Heaven) also participate in communion. Christ's Body is living and growing and has not reached its full growth yet. Christ's Body will continue to grow until it reaches its fullness (Rom 11:25).
chance
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/26/2001 4:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
faithfullservent: you are on the ball right now
The reason I attempted (endeavored) to respond to Ryan Martin's excellent question was to get the BALL rolling. I am enjoying reading how people are responding.
I have a question for you, Paul, what is the picture of? Call me a little dense, or my computer screen a little bit too small, but I am unable to see clearly what the picture is???
Blessings,
trosie
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/26/2001 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
chance: I think the following passages just from the Psalms and Proverbs at least imply that God does not have a set deadline for every person who has ever lived.
AND
quote:
TGB: If God eternally knows all possibilities, then he eternally knew you might be born or might not be (as well as knowing all the decisions you might make). In either case, God (as Doc’s infinite intelligence argument goes) would be perfectly prepared for it as though it were the only thing that could have happened.
The bible verses and the post from TGB helped me to get a grip on how the open view would answer the question of God's foreknowledge of our existence.
Thanks, Ryan, for starting this thread because it is helping me reflect on this too
trosie
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 11/26/2001 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | It is a picture I took of a mountain dew bottle on top of a water fountain in chicago. It has no signifacance to the post, I just thought it would be funny to put it there. I have made it my signature for awhile.
Have a grrrreat day Trosie, God Bless!
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/26/2001 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for explaining the picture. You are a creative one, aren't you!
Have a grrrreat day too faithfullservent, God Bless!
trosie
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/26/2001 10:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Chance: It just doesn't follow that because communion is participated in by all saints that those saints who do not yet exist (and therefore, are neither on earth or in Heaven) also participate in communion.
PoW: Yes it does. Because of the nature of what communion IS.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/26/2001 3:34:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/26/2001 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | But I want to repeat, that my answer to Chance, above, does not directly address the issue of this thread. It is just an interesting side issue that would need to be addressed, and however you answer the question of "Does God foreknow the existence of every being" with regard to God's activities, it is really important to remember that the issue of our salvation is THE issue. All else is a curiosity.
God acts with in Time. The Son entered time. Time (the meaning of time) was "healed" in Christ's death and resurrection. But it is the divinity of God that healed humanity in Christ's hypostasis of fallen human nature to His divine nature. He is divine by nature, and participates in the divine life as one of the Trinity. The Spirit's "enhypostsis" of us to Christ's deified humanity is our salvation. Participation in the divine life of God, by grace, and not by nature.
Communion is NOT what the Quakers say. Though what they say needs to be attended to with enthusiasm. All of life is to be eucharistic. But participation with created nature, and recovery of God-given activities is, of course, not enough to save. ONLY in our being joined to Christ, our Head.
Try reading Paul from THAT point of view. It all makes sense.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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RyanMartin
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Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 11/26/2001 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | The discussion has been very interesting thus far. The whole communion thing lost me a bit . . . probably because I am a baptist.
In light of God's knowing or not knowing the pre-existence of every human being, what do we do with verses like Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations" (ESV). It seems like God knows about Jeremiah. Should this be understood like every other prophecy? It doesn't seem to be a prophecy. What do you guys and gals think?
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 11/26/2001 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Ryan sir,
Here's my thoughts about it from another posting I did within this same "The raging debate continues here..." section.
I'd like to emphasize again that there are two wonderful concepts of freewill and choice opening the begining chapters of Genesis: a narrow choice only offering the freewill to choose life or death; the more broader choice (naming the animals) offering more lattitude in daily activity. HOWEVER, none of these gives man total freewill and none of these prohibits God from maneurvering, manipulating and doing other things within the affairs of man, including taking life (note David's son born to Bathsheba). The child did nothing to deserve death, but God reserves the right [who's going to argue] to take life, if He so deems. For God to take a life is not sin, cruel or wrong. It is His right. He NEVER gave us sovereignty over life. Welcome to the real deeper truth of the Noah's Ark issue: God agrees to not waste the world with water again, but what isn't said but implied is that God will work within this sinful framework. Whereas He never would have taken life before the Fall, He has complete right to do so now.
Micromanagment is always on going, but what we mean by that should be clarified. Quite plainly God's omniscience (and all those other "omnis") are simply the way it is for God - micromanagement is seeing over (and overseeing) all that goes on. It's not necessarily control, but there's times it is.
We constantly want to reference ourselves within that broader choice, conceptualized in naming the animals, when we talk about God being involved in our affairs. We create a puzzle to be solved when someone's future is too programmed, to known for God to be able to know this or that without seeing into the future. We stumble over Calvinism and Arminianism if someone's life looks predistined before one is even born. but it is within the first concept of choice ("You may freely eat...but not of...") that we forget is where we stand before God when we talk of these issues and not the broader choice.
Therefore, God is quite free Himself, without knowing a thing about Jacob and Esau's futures, to create their futures for His own purposes; this is the whole concept of Romans 9. God isn't violating anyone's rights, for He never gave anyone rights to be so soverign as to be untouchable in one's daily affairs by the Lord Himself...and in ways that just might not be too enjoyable at times (take Jonah for instance).
None of this requires God "knowing" every single thing that's going to happen to Jacob and Esau other than what God Himself has predetermined, and anything God does to them is not outside of God's right to do so.
If I have learned one thing about the open view, it is that the more open my view is, the less free I see I am before God Almighty. It's the same concept as "The more I learn about God, the less I know."
Finally, I refer to Daniel 11 where so much specific (pin-point detail, no less) is given about individuals. It bothered me as I was studying the open view, because these people's "rights" seemed to be violated, or...the open view was wrong and God does see every minute (micromangment) detail of the future. Ah! But it is within the framework of those freewill and choice passages in the first chapters of Genesis that makes sense of it all. I now see that (as I noted), really, I'm free, but...well, not THAT free after all. And I don't mind the least. I'm free where it counts!
For the conversation,
Edited by - Starkman on 11/26/2001 9:51:20 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 11/26/2001 7:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If I have learned one thing about the open view, it is that the more open my view is, the less free I see I am before God Almighty. It's the same concept as "The more I learn about God, the less I know."
Does your view of the open view say that the more you realize it the more you understand that in the face of God you are not free? I thought the main idea of the open view was God did not know certain aspects of the future because the free agent had not made the moral choices. Was the idea you postulated a misconstrued version of the open view?
Now for your viewing pleasure, here are some bible verses.
"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the lord."  Deuteronomy 23:1
"If one of you becomes unclean because of a nocturnal emmission, then he shall go outside the camp; he must not come within the camp." Deuteronomy 23:10
Peace
Edited by - faithfullservent on 11/27/2001 12:23:40 AM
Edited by - faithfullservent on 11/27/2001 12:26:23 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 11/26/2001 11:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Faithfull
[quote]Now for your viewing pleasure, here are some bible verses.
"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the lord." Deuteronomy 23:1
You call this "viewing pleasure"? VIEWING PLEASURE? Pleasure? Eee gads! I'd be Cry-y-y-y-ing (sung to Roy Orbibson)!
(I'm so short on time here...have to run off to work...)
Okay, no, this is not a misconstrued view of the open view. Think about it. Do you not gain more awe and awareness of God as you learn more of Him? Do you not stand before Him feeling like "Wow, I know nothing compared to Him?". Don't you come to an even more humble awareness of your self compared to our Almighty Lord?
Well, that is what I mean about being less free. The more free I've come to see that I am before God, the bigger He has become and, hence, the smaller I have become (something like John the Baptist's "He must increase and I must decrease").
Look at that concept of freedom given to Adam and Eve: "Of the fruit of the tree...you shall not eat or you will die". Does that not bring limitation?
So, I come more and more daily (clock's ticking...rats) to an awareness that, yes, I am free, more free than ever; but I am also more aware of my limitations...more than ever. For I see Him more as He is. HE is free. I am only free because of Him.
That's all I'm trying to say!
Catchyalater,
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n/a
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| Posted 11/27/2001 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 11/27/2001 6:13 AM (GMT -6) | | FaithfullServantAs my Uncle would say "Do you understand now? Great, would you mind explaining it to me; I'm lost!".
Working through it all,
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/27/2001 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Free-will probably should include God, shouldn't it; and not be the "as if God didn't exist" that Bonhoeffer gets accused of. By "include God" I mean the SYNERGY of God working with us, "to will and to do" that Paul speaks of. I know that the preservation of Only-by-Faith/Only-by-Grace issue will get raised. But we can handle that. We can assume that we are working from that. (versus works only) What about free-will being a cooperation of us and God?
Anybody?
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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RyanMartin
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Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 11/27/2001 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm. That is an interesting point, POW. It does not seem like it would free will if God is changing our affections in any way, does it?
I don't know. . . . Can anyone help me on the earlier quesion on Jeremiah? No offense, Starkman, but I need it answered a bit more directly.
Hating My Will,
Ryan
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