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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/4/2001 6:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ever since Pia D (I believe, forgive me for not completely spelling it out, ask Semeia, I can't spell to save my life) posted a summary of the book "Bound Only Once:The Failure of Open Theism," I wanted to get it because it was published by a small reformed press and, well, I was curious. Well, it came in the mail yesterday and I finished the first chapter today.
The first chapter is by Douglas Wilson, entitled "The Love Of Orthodoxy," (though it should have been titled the hatred of open theism, but considering how he misrepresents open theism, perhaps not).
Some highlights:
After quoting Isaiah 40:13-17, which contains the line ..."who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord," Wilson writes: "Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord? Why, do ye not know? Have ye not heard? It's Clark Pinnock. Who has been his counselor in order to teach him in the path of judgment? Why, ye slow of heart, and lunk-headed (lunk-headed? What is that...my words) of soul---it's Greg Boyd. Who has taught him knowledge, and who showed to Him the way of understanding? Well, you know, there is always John Sanders, whose book has lots of footnotes and academic respectatbility.
Unfair? They don't claim this for themselves. Well, actually, they do, and not for themselves only, but also for all the rest of us puny, little godmakers, whose breath is in our nostrils (I'm not sure what he is talking about here...my words). In Open theism, the future is currently uncreated and comes into being as the result of a cooperative effort bewteen god and man, in which process god (notice those little "gs") learns lots of keen stuff. He is surprised every day, and he learns from what we do. In short, he is not the God of Isaiah."
The writing is like that throughout the first chapter, so I expect quite a ride. It borders on the childish, how he writes, but the main problem with the first chapter is that he says that everyone has their own orthodoxy and one needs to know which one is true, but then he never even attempts to make a case for classical orthodoxy, but simply assumes what he believes is biblical. This is what I called the right of assumption. He assumes what he believes is correct because, well, it is the only belief worthy of God (something that comes out in strong terms in the ten pages he wades through).
Anyway, Doc, I was wondering if you had had the pleasure (ha) of reading this book. I'm sure it will be QUITE a ride. Harold the PhD
Edited by - writerdad on 12/04/2001 11:17:02 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 12/5/2001 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | People tend to dismiss open-view theism without going to the Bible or seriously considering open-view claims. There has been an enormous amount of counter-views published recently. Unfortunately, I believe most of these books tend to lean towards dogmatic closed-minded caricatures of a serious evangelical movement.
What books, if any, are truly biblical and serious arguments against open-theism?
--Jewgrass
A friend of mine went to the ETS conference and told me an open theist (probably either Sanders, Pinnock, or Boyd I guess) said this: "You Calvinists have had 400 years to develop your theology. At least give us 4 or 5."
"My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed." -- General Stonewall Jackson | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/6/2001 12:19 AM (GMT -6) | | It was Sanders who said that during his paper. Have you got your copy of the paper he gave at the ETS Conference? You can get his paper if you e-mail ets@zondervan.com and ask for it.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/6/2001 9:44 AM (GMT -6) | | hey, Chance, thanks for posting the Zondervan website. Got some great stuff from there. Harold the PhD
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/7/2001 10:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the edifying material Writerdad. You are right about some of the childish antics some of this group engage in. You wouldn't believe some of the mail I get from some of these lovely folk.
I thought I'd share a recent example of one such edifying, mature, God honoring letter.
Background: A man (whom I shall not name) challenged me to a debate. Now, I love to debate. I do it with atheists and members of the Jesus seminar etc... quite a bit. But I do so because I trust these people to have some academic integrity and at least a modicum of human decency. This man, I know from experience (believe me!) has neither. So I declined. His assistance sent me (and Clark Pinnock, whom he presumably also challenged) this letter. (It reflects perfectly the spirit of the man he works for).
The Letter (unedited)
Sirs',
I've never met either of you before personally. Perhaps you are very nice
and kind people. But nevertheless both of you are leading heretics within the Body of Christ.
Unfortunately you both declined to debate the issue on the radio. You succumbed to argumentum ad hominem directed towards your opponent which was a weak "defense" indeed. It is suspicious that instead of dealing with the
exegetical evidence , you both simply "Chickened Out!"
Since I may never meet you in person (however I hope I do someday), I wrote you a poem about your foolish concept towards God. You "inspired" me?
I am simply "Shocked," on how you, Mr. Boyd, can be a senior Pastor of a Church? I am "Shocked" on how you, Mr. Pinnock, can have a position as a
professor at a Christian college? Both of you should have been "Ex-Communicated" years ago per Scripture. You have crossed over the line
from nonessentials to essentials and are official heretics. If you remain heretical, please leave the Church and take up plumbing or truck-driving,
you don't belong in the Church until you both repent. I have a feeling, however, that you will remain in the fold as rotten fruit? I hope not.
It grieves me, for you two have become like rotten apples within the Body of Christ corrupting the beautiful truth towards the Nature of God. You have put God in chains and have limited him to time as some of the Greek Pagan philosophers did. I am hurt and greatly disappointed, at your cowardliness to defend your position (regardless of your view of your opponents character). It substantiates your possible deceptive motives. (they may be sincere? I don't know, but nevertheless, sincerely wrong, it appears
deceptive when you manifest cowardliness to debate the issue). You are not willing to be "open" about your "openness."
Furthermore, the Nature of God is part of the gospel, for it we have a different God we worship, we have a different heaven, which in actuality is
a pseudo-God/god and pseudo-heaven. In relation to this concept, you teach a different gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).
I am usually not this harsh, but you are not my leaders within Christianity and therefore need to be called for who you really are, "coward heretics."
I will pray for both of you that you STOP preaching and embracing doctrines of demons and hold fast to the truth in Gods Word towards his nature.
If you ever change your mind about the debate, please let me know and I can try to set up the debate once again? As for now, I hope you both enjoy my poem.
I will continue to pray for both of you to repent of your foolish and stupid thinking. For God is not bound and chained to time, for He is God.
>
>>Open Heresy!!!
>I once heard the new Openview.
>I heard it from my own old church pew.
>When I heard this view,
>It made me so blue,
>My preacher I saw had no clue!
>
>Some say there is really no fuss,
>like Calvin and Mr. John Hus,
>They had a new view,
>That was very brand new,
>Like with them, it's the same as with us?
>
>So stop it, quite picking on me,
>This is just a new view can't you see,
>It's not divisive,
>It's just decisive,
>But we're still in Orthodoxy?
>
>Don't be stupid, think back to Eve,
>When Satan was wrong and deceived,
>It's a similar way,
>That Satan still plays
>On the one's in the Church that Believe!
>
>The bad guys seem to be annoyed,
>This would include Pinnock and Boyd,
>But keep going strong,
>In exposing their wrong,
>For their heresy needs to be seen!
My response to the letter was this:
"Dear [so-and-so], thanks for the helpful feedback.
In Christ's love
Greg Boyd "
Delightful.
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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n/a
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 12/7/2001 11:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Doc! Is it just me, or did that letter and poem (it is not shakespeare i'll tell you that much) reak of Christ's love? I was overwhelmed by the warmeness that overflowed from that letter.
Blessings
~Paul~
Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/8/2001 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes Faithful,
so much for Christ's teaching about the danger of calling someone "a fool" or saying "raca"...
so much for loving your enemies...
We model the god we emulate
for better
or for worse.
Peace
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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geej
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 12/8/2001 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Aughh!!! He picked on Doc and Pinnock? )*@$*&#(*!!!
It seems as though this person has a little studying to do in the area of good theology. Nice how he does such an excellent job of spreading the love of the Lord.
My impression of people like this is that they have been deeply hurt in some way and/or are afraid to allow others to hold or discuss views that differ from their own. Hurt, fear and ignorance can have a devastating affect on an individual and on those with whom that individual interacts. How sad.
Doc, it is truly impressive that you responded and that you responded respectfully.
Geej
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/10/2001 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | As I've noted before, one wonders just how close these anti-open view opponents are to converting over! Scared to even give their hearts a chance, they are, lest they crumble under the weight of HAVING TO MAKE A CHOICE!
(well, okay, this person doesn't sound like he's too close! I was just...hoping!)
Starkman
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ScottEmerson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 12/10/2001 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | I would say that your response what "exactly" what the guy needed. How many ad hominems can one letter take?
If I were to base my faith on each of the two letters sent (which I wouldn't, but there are some people who do choose Christianity or another faith based upon one single thing they see or read), I would have to fall under coach's fold, rotten apples though they may be.
It's that kind of biligerent attitude that really made me examine my more Calvinist leanings while a freshman at Samford University!
SEC
------------------------
Nobody teaches a plant to grow. If I water and care for her, she grows on her own. - F. Perls
Edited by - scottemerson on 12/10/2001 3:05:53 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/10/2001 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad, Sanders quoted a prayer by R.C.Sproul that is giving in the book you started this thread with "Bound Only Once." I don't have a copy of the book (my education is not yet complete!). Could you share it with us?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/10/2001 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | I have John's paper handy and he quoted Sproul Jr. near the end. So here it is.
quote:
we can pray that He would destroy the idolatrous works of iniquity and the workers thereof.
He followed this quote up saying "Yes, some are now praying for God to kill me quickly. Given their understanding of providence, the time of my death has been eternally foreordained and whether it is soon or not has nothing to do with their prayers because they do not influence God. However, in the openness view, their prayers actually could influence what God does so I’m in big trouble! (Ha!)"
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/10/2001 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | This is at the end of Sproul's chapter:
"The good news is we need not bow down to the idol these men have created in their own fevered imaginations. We can pray with confidence that in his grace He will not allow His redeemed to fall into this damnable heresy. Indeed, as we continue to worship the God who not only knows but also determines the future, we can pray that He would destroy the idolatrous works of iniquity and workers thereof. We can be confident not that our prayers will change the sovereign, efficacious will of God MOst High, but that He will, as He has promised, vindicate His own name, to His everlasting glory. And when He has brought the dance of history to a close then we will dance with Him, at the great, final, and certain marriage feast of the lamb."
One has to wonder at the vermon coming from the pen of Sproul (Jr., by the way. Is this RC's son, or is he a junior). As I read the last part, I couldn't help but wonder if Sproul thought of ending it with, "dancing on the graves of open theists!"
But I have to wonder, would Jesus want us to pray such a prayer? Did he ever pray such a thing when he debated the Pharisees? What boggles the minds is the back of the book says that "Bound Only Once is a useful, original and helpful entry into this growing debate." Helpful for who? Its strident angry tone makes it fit for only the extreme reformed believer who is worried and insecure about his own faith. I am thinking of posting pieces from it just so people get a feel for it. Some of it you have to read to believe. Harold the PhD
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n/a
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 12/10/2001 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Writerdad (A PHD and a dad who is a writer,LOL)I respect you open mindedness to buy books like that. I personally, would have a hard time shelling out .50 cents to read anything by a calvanist--especially sproul. I ask for your to pray that I could remain open minded in those cases. Keep up the good work.
Peace Brotha
Paul
Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/10/2001 8:44 PM (GMT -6) | | I've got an idea. Let's just post the parts of this book that are worth reading and then no one will have to buy it. How much could that possibly be? Two or three pages at the most, right?
To make all see,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/11/2001 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Faithful: I hear you. I do not have a problem with people disagreeing with me, but it seems many times they have to caricuture opposing views and invoke the condemnation thing.
I do have a new desire for reading it, though. I was on Amazon last night and I saw that James Scott posted a glowing review of it there. He's the guy who disses Doc's books. So I want to read this book through and give my own "glowing" review of it right behind Scott's. Harold (Faithful: actually I am not a traditional Phd). Its an honorary title bestowed on me by Mephi, the king of the posters. So I thought I'd wear it with pride, but I think it has outlived its use so I'll be retiring it soon. Besides, its kind of confusing. Most people are beginning to think I actually have brains...
Edited by - writerdad on 12/11/2001 11:15:06 AM
Edited by - writerdad on 12/11/2001 11:16:43 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 12/11/2001 8:33 AM (GMT -6) | | WriterDad,
What Up Sir Dad? Hey, I think your review would be very benificial (I just baught the book myself), just don't expect ScottJames to let it go at that. You see, if you go and look at amazon.com under open theist books especially Boyds, you will quickly find out that he writes about 3-4 horrible reviews per book (you see, he wants his message heard and the stars to go down...insecure or what  ! LOL
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/11/2001 1:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Tiggers: I realize that, but I think reviews alongside his will made it more evenhanded. Besides, it is obvious that he simply doesn't like open theism, not that he understands it...
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/12/2001 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Open theism is "a damnable heresy," so when Sproul prays " that God would destroy the idolatrous works of iniquity and workers thereof," is he not praying for our damnation? And isn't there a certain delight in this manifested when he goes on to celebrate his eternal "dance with Him, at the great, final, and certain marriage feast of the lamb" as writerdad noted?
I take this to be a curse which has the demonic power that is so evidenced in the tenor of the prayer itself. It is why I and others who publish works on this topic need all your prayers.
I, for one, would deeply appreciate it.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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n/a
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 12/12/2001 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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