 |
| 
geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 12/12/2001 5:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | I could've sworn that in some thread in some post of yours, you sited some fella who was both a chaos theorist and an indeterminist. I am getting conflicting information about chaos theory. Some physicists I've been conversing with insist that chaos theory isn't compatible with indeterminism.
So who's this fella and how can I learn more about his schpeal?
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy | | Back to Top | | |
 |
chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/12/2001 6:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Have you checked out that paper that was given at the ETS Conference on modern physics and open theism? It's by a guy named John C. Beckman. It's titled "Modern Physics and Open Theism".
You can ask for it by clicking on the paper on this page.
http://www.zondervanchurchsource.com/convention/parallel.htm
I heard it and thought that it was intriguing, but don't know enough about chaos theory to form a solid opinion. I'd like to know what Doc thought about this paper also if he's read through it and critiqued it.
To make all see,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/12/2001 7:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Geebob, chaos theory as a distinct theory has been worked out along mechanistic/ deterministic lines. Assuming a one to one correlation between causes and effects, the theory stipulates that we can't possible trace back and isolate all the causes that led to a particular outcome within a dynamic system. Correlatively, we can't in detail predict outcomes given our knowledge of present causes. The slightest alteration somewhere may bring about a significant alteration elsewhere.
Now, this doesn't mean that chaos theory is incompatible with indeterminism. Its not like chaos theory and quantum theory are in conflict. Its just that the theory thus far has not yet attempted to integrate quantum insights into its theory. However, there are some who are just now beginning to explore what impact it makes on chaos theory if we try to integrate it into quantum theory. The best discussions of this I know of are by H. Peitgen, "The Causality Principle, Deterministic Laws and Chaos," in Chaos: The New Science, Physics, Philosophy and Theology: A Common Quest for Understanding, J. R. Russell, W. R. Stoeger, G. V. Coyne, eds. (Vatican Observatory, Notre Dame, IN: Notre Dame University Press, 1988), pp. 185-202, and J. Hobb, "Chaos and Indeterminism," Canadian Journal of Philosophy, 21 (1991), 141-64.
Also interesting and somewhat relevant are K. Popper, The Open Universe: An Argument for Indeterminism (London: Hutchinson, 1982) and his Quantum Theory and the Schism in Physics (London: Hutchinson, 1982); A. Rae, Quantum Physics: Illusion or Reality? (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1986); ; and R. Penrose, Shadow of the Mind (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994) and of course, my favorite, J. Polkinghorne, Science and Creation (Boston: Shambala, 1989), as well as Quarks, Chaos & Christianity (Crossroad: New York, 1996).
A few other words indirectly tap into the issue of the relationship between indeterminacy (at a personal level) and chaos theory. They relate to management issues in the light of chaos theory, and are especially relevant because they offer up a new paradigm for our understanding of how God could confidently "run" the universe without controlling every part of it. Check out, for example: R. D. Stacey, Managing the Unknowable: Strategic Boundaries Between Order and Chaos in Organizations (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass Publishers, 1992); M. Wheatley, Leadership and the New Science: Learning About Organization From an Orderly Universe (San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler Publishers, 1992); L. D. Kiel, Managing Chaos and Complexity in Government: A New Paradigm for Managing Change, Innovation, and Organizational Renewal (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass Publishers, 1994); J. Goldstein, The Unshackled Organization: Facing the Challenge of Unpredictability Through Spontaneous Reorganization (Portland: Productivity Press, 1994), and H. R. Priesmeyer, Organizations and Chaos: Defining the Methods of Nonlinear Management (Westport, CT: Quorum Books, 1992).
I suspect I "over answered" your question. Oh well. Its a fascinating and much ignored topic (especially among evangelicals who are STUCK in classical Newtonian paradigms and thus think we threaten the whole universe by saying anything isn't directly controlled by God.
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 12/13/2001 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi geebob:
I just finished a book titled "The Matter Myth" by Davies and Gribbin. There is a chapter in this book where they explain chaos theory's implications on Newtonian physics very well. They use an interesting proof to show that while chaos is essentially deterministic, no chaotic system can IN PRINCIPAL be described with perfect precision. A pendulum is deterministic but if you oscillate it, it will become chaotic at certain frequencies. If you use a line to describe possible staring points for the pendulum, it is demonstratable that it is impossible to know initial conditions with infinite precission. Points on any given line can be labelled with fractions. Even though there are an INFINITE number of fractions, there aren't enough to label every point. Fractions are also called rational numbers. There will be points along the line that cannot be expressed by a whole number divided by a whole number. These are the so-called irrational points(numbers). The set of all rational and irrational numbers form what mathematicians call "real numbers". While a rational number can be expressed compactly, an irrational number can't. It can only be expressed as a decimal expansion consisting of an infinite string of digits with no existing pattern. To express one such number precisly involves an infinite amount of information. More information than could be contained in the entire universe! Stay with me, this all has implications for determinism. You can see that ONE irrational number is impossible to know completely. This is where "sensitivity to initial conditions" comes in. Determining the future state of a system requires infinite precission in the knowledge of the initial conditions. Chaos theory can be consider indeterministic in that it is NOT possible to ever know initial conditions with infinite precission. This is not because we don't have enogh precission due to our current tecnology. It is intrinsicly IMPOSSIBLE due to the nature of our universe! Whethter this limitation can be applied to God, I don't know. Can the infinite be known by an infinite being with infinite intelligence? I'll have to leave that up to the theologians.
Rob
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 12/13/2001 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I think it was Ian Barbour (Religion and Science) who said that indeterminacy is approached as a limit in chaotic systems, but is actually achieved in quantum systems. For example, for one billiard ball balanced on another, an infinitesimal amount (approaching but not equal to zero) of input energy would send it one way vs. another. For a quantum system the energy sending it in different paths can indeed be zero.
Magneton
"A hand grenade exploded in a school of fish will supply food for days." - United States Armed Forces Survival Manual
| | Back to Top | | |
|
geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 12/13/2001 3:11 PM (GMT -6) | | when I'm not to lazy to do it, eventually I'll send for that paper from zondervan. Thanks Chance. Did you go to the ETS this year? Perhaps you told me but I forgot.
Dr. Boyd, are these people you cited attempting to explore chaos along the lines of metaphysical indeterminism? If it as still unsure suggests, I would think that chaos is only epistemically indeterminate and that's not of much interest to the open view.
magneton, what you say sounds interesting but it's a bit over my head. could you explain that a little more?
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy
Edited by - geebob on 12/13/2001 8:13:22 PM | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:41 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|