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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/17/2001 5:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Given the charge by many Calvinists (and what was brought up in the "Bush," post) that we open theists worship a different God, I was kind of wondering, what are the parameters of God. What defines God in the Christian experience that we may say this is our God as opposed to, say, a Hindu god, or some other god. You may throw down now...Harold
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MrIndifference
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 12/17/2001 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | What makes God, God?
For me, the fact that He not only created us, gave us a way do redeem ourselves to Him after we screwed up His plans for us and His creation, but also that He chose to put Himself in a position where He could take an active role in our lives, is enough for me to declare Him worthy of being God of my life.
Nice run-on sentence eh? Someday I hope to be able to match Paul and write a whole chapter of a book with one sentence.
MrI. :|
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He who blesses his friend with a loud voice,
Rising in the morning,
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/17/2001 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | For an entire summer Tom Schriener (a well known staunch Calvinist) and I dialogued about this very question. We came to the conclusion that our religions were almost totally different, except on one point. We agreed on the centrality of Jesus Christ for the salvation of a soul. From that middle point the arrows of our faith when in diametrically opposite directions. Our views of God were radically different, though we are centered on the same savior.
In my opinion, this one common point is enough to see us within the same "family" of Christianity. (I'm not sure what conclusion Tom came to).
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/19/2001 6:00 AM (GMT -6) | | I have been thinking on this very issue for sometime and I keep coming back to this: don't we all conceptualize God is someway to meet the needs that each of us has as a person? Could we not all say that we worship a different God in some way?
Let me explain. For instance: if I am a person in need of someone who will listen to me and I meet someone who is patient and a good listener, how will I describe that person to others? Now that person may be a very smart, intelligent person with a lot of great qualities, but I will lavish praise on their listening abilities, because that is what my needs are. Likewise, is it not enough for Christians to profess that God has revealed himself as triune and that Jesus Christ has saved us in a profound (and in some ways mysterious) way and recognize that many times we are going to see God through the prism of our own needs?
Are not all of our views of God somewhat tainted by our own experiences? Even among the stauntist calvinists, do not most of them disagree in some way about the nature of God, not unlike open theists? God will be God no matter what we believe, but does it really bother God that open theists see him as changing to meet our needs as persons even if he doesn't, if that draws us closer to him? Harold
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 12/19/2001 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | As Writerdad said, God will be God no matter what we believe. Our views of God's attributes may differ radically, but we are agreed in trying to describe a specific being who is creator of the universe. In that sense, open theists and Calvinists aren't talking about a different God.
I don't know what are the critical attributes of God that assure we are talking about the right person, or which ones are critical for us to understand. In describing the attributes of God, a little humility is required. When we get to see God face to face, we'll all be surprised in some way. If we can recognize our surprise as due to our own past misunderstanding, rather than rejecting God because he doesn't meet our requirements, that will be a great day! Or to bring that to our present life: do we worship God because of specific attributes, or do we worship God as a person? Is "ascribing worth" to God a kind of accounting procedure, or are we enjoying just being in God's presence?
A classic in this area is Eternity in Their Hearts by Don Richardson. One of his big things is that God plants "redemptive analogies" into various cultures (the richest of which, such as the Lamb of God, were in Israel's culture). Richardson describes many of the "pagan" or "primitive" cultures who worshipped a Creator God. Missionaries who entered these areas found people amazingly ready for the message of Christ. I think it was in Korea (or maybe somewhere else in Asia), where they were able to proclaim Jesus, son of Hunanim (the local name for the creator). Such assignment was not indiscriminate, however. Deities such as the Greek Zeus had foibles that were inconsistent with the Almighty God.
I guess I've come full circle here. What are the critical attributes of God, an irreducible set, that assures we are talking about the right person? At what point do we say that the conceptions of God by "primitive" cultures (or theologians, for that matter) are WRONG to the point of being INCONSISTENT WITH THE IDENTITY of the Almighty God, rather than merely INCOMPLETE?
Magneton
Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal
Edited by - magneton on 12/19/2001 1:25:07 PM
Edited by - magneton on 12/21/2001 09:39:52 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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JoeMoore
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 12/26/2001 4:47 AM (GMT -6) | | [Magneton]
I guess I've come full circle here. What are the critical attributes of God, an irreducible set, that assures we are talking about the right person? At what point do we say that the conceptions of God by "primitive" cultures (or theologians, for that matter) are WRONG to the point of being INCONSISTENT WITH THE IDENTITY of the Almighty God, rather than merely INCOMPLETE?
[Joe]
I would only be a bit more explicit about what I hope Magneton is already saying. What theologic pride allows any of us before we see Him face to face to describe our theology as anything but 'primitive'? If someone from Paupua New Guinea (sp?)'s view of God is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% accurate and mine is 1 Billion times better what difference does it make? None of us are close enough to fit the mold.
Having said that, I DO believe our view of Christ can be brought into significant accuracy AND our view of what He did on the cross for us can be brought into almost 100% accuracy on this side of death. Isn't that what we should share? Then the attributes of the unknowable (in total) God that are painted throughout all of scripture can be discussed from a proper framework and humility.
Joe Moore
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DaveSherrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 12/26/2001 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | WriterDad,
I'll bite.
Although this is not exhaustive criteria, how about taking God at His Word in Scripture and letting Him set the criteria?
Dave
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JoeMoore
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 12/28/2001 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]
WriterDad,
I'll bite.
Although this is not exhaustive criteria, how about taking God at His Word in Scripture and letting Him set the criteria?
Dave
[Joe]
Why then is it that virtually everyone who looks at scripture comes to a different conclusion? I'm not saying that those who honestly look at scripture can come to valid, different conclusions about the essence of the atonement, the basic (very basic) nature of the trinity, etc. But as far as the application of God's attributes, it's not that easy. 'Orthodox' christianity is certainly not monolithic on this.
Joe Moore
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/28/2001 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Joe Moore and others,
After reading your comments I happened to read a Christmas letter from my wife's forty-year-old college roommate. Something turned my attention back to what you spoken, spoken for many, many of us. This seems to contain wisdom:
"On December 31, I will have read my Bible through in one year. to be quite honest with you, this reading has been a true highlight of my year. Even though I had been reading the Scriptures daily since age 13, I have missed so much. But, I think God had a message for me this year. He made it very clear through this reading and the thought and discussion hence evoked that in this life, it's not about me, it's about Him."
I think the wisdom here, applied, is that it is "not about" our making the focus be our own degree of knowledge of words, but rather, it is "about" our growing in knowledge of "The Word" -- Christ himself!
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/28/2001 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | | I am compelled to believe that I am not to be worshiped; Hitler, Stalin, Lennin, the Chinese fellow (I want to write Meow, but that's what a cat does) have long proved that mankind is not God and not even a close facsimile.
I need to be carried. I need to be rescued from my own self, of all the things to have to be rescued. I need help.
The only god/God qualified in my perusal of the many god's out there is the God of the Bible. He addresses the dillema of man. His Word addresses my need, my rescue. Neither anyone else nor any other religion does this sufficiently.
What makes God God to me (particularly in view of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ) is the trust in Him in which I may place my entire being.
I have hope where there was none. I have hope.
This makes God God to me.
Starkman
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