quote:

---

What part of "make them known" do you not understand? the only way that you can show it to mean anything other than what it says is to ADD to the verse. It is not making it known to the issuer it is making it known to the answerer. You calvinist never cease to amuse me!

---

quote:

---

How could we "make known" something that is already known?

---

quote:

---

? Since other translations use phrases like "present your requests" (NIV) and "tell God what you need (New Living)", I would be interested to know what the actual Greek says. Any Greek scholars out there?

---

quote:

---

That only proves that God does know what we need, but, it does not show that God knows before hand desires that come upon us. He also will give us the desires of our hearts as well as our needs. So, keep looking.

---

quote:

---

it does not show that God knows before hand desires that come upon us.

---

quote:

---

In other words, a case could be made that God asks us to request so that we can benefit from the peace (Phil. 4:7) that results from his having received our requests.

---

quote:

---

PhD MP,

quote:

---

In other words, a case could be made that God asks us to request so that we can benefit from the peace (Phil. 4:7) that results from his having received our requests.

---

I agree, but something nudges at me about this, too...

As an open theist, I believe that there's more to God asking us to ask our requests of Him because of the peace that follows. Oh, I don't agree that that is true, mind you, but I think there's play-off, too, between God and man.

The many times God can be pursuaded in Scripture to change His mind is to add something to the dynamics of requesting something from God.

Moses pleaded with God to not destroy Israel; it wasn't that God didn't know Moses' heart, but God had a living, vivacious at-that-time dialog with Moses' "need" of God. There was life going on within the dialog between Moses and God. There is life that goes on between all of us and God when we request, because (and this is what I think is so cool) so much can change, be molded, shaped and created in the reality of going before God to ask of Him. It's big...very big, and that's the part, too, (along with getting peace as the final surety of having made contact with God about these very important things) that comes into play here.

For the conversation,

Starkman

Starkman,
Based on your comments, I can't tell how you would understand the following:

NAU Matthew 6:8 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Would you be able to give a brief shot at it? Thanks.

Sincerely,
Dave

---

quote:

---

NAU Matthew 6:8 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Would you be able to give a brief shot at it? Thanks.

---

quote:

---

The Ecole Glossary
http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/glossary/johncas.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Cassian

Born c. 360, John Cassian was ordained a deacon in Constantinople and became a monk in Bethlehem. He settled in Scetis and made frequent trips to the Thebiad; his Conferences records his conversations with these monks. He may have left Egypt for Palestine c. 399 because of his association with Origenist monks. About six years later, he travelled to Rome, where he became friends with Leo, who was elected Pope Leo I in 440. Cassian established two monasteries near Marseilles c. 415; Sts. Peter and Victor was for men, and St. Savior was for women. Cassian's Institutes served as their rule, and his On the Incarnation is a treatise against Nestorianism. Cassian died c. 433/ 435.

Condemned at the Council of Orange (529) as a semi-Pelagian, Cassian was held in great esteem by St. Benedict, who recommended that monks read both the Institutes and the Conferences, and St. Leo the Great, who had commissioned Cassian to write about the incarnation. St. Gregory the Great took Cassian's eight principal vices and created the Seven Deadly Sins. In the Middle Ages, Cassian's body was housed in a marble tomb, and Pope Urban V put Cassian's head in a silver casket. Because Cassian disagreed with the teachings of St. Augustine, the Roman church has dismissed him as the founder of semi-Pelagianism, although he also disagreed with the teachings of Pelagius. The Orthodox, however, have glorified Cassian as St. John Cassian the Roman.

Karen Rae Keck
---------------------------------------------
Copyright © 1996, Karen Rae Keck. This file may be copied on the condition that the entire contents, including the header and this copyright remain intact.

---

quote:

---

On the Condemnation of Pelagius
This could also be titled:"Why the Celi De have their own jurisdictionand are only in Communion with doctrinally canonical Churches"

Celtic Christians have always rejoiced that God the Father sent God the Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to ransom us and lift us up to Him. The Celtic churches followed the teaching of Saint John very closely. Perhaps the most famous verse of St. John is: "16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. " (Jn 3:16). The Celts like all true Christians rejoice that Christ came to save us. Yet there is still a debate as to whether Christ merely provided a helping hand or whether we really need to be saved.

Most who have read the writings of the Celtic churches will agree that the Celtic churches did not follow the erroneous teaching of Augustine of Hippo (359-430) that we are born guilty and deprived of God's Grace. However, some incorrectly claim that the Celts followed the teachings of Pelagius Britto (also known as Morgan) and did not believe that we are born with deficiency inherited from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. This is based on the idea that in a debate one of the two sides is correct and the other wrong. The supposition is that since Pelagius and Augustine debated these issues and the Church did not accept the views of Augustine then Pelagius must be correct. In fact the Church did not accept the views of Pelagius. In a debate one side can be correct; both sides can be correct or both can be incorrect. That is reality and sadly it is not as convenient as we might like. Idea A and Idea B are false if reality is in fact C.



Based on the few remaining writings by Pelagius or attributed to him we find some details of his errors:
1) Adam's sin injured only Adam and has no effect on us. Sickness and death are part of our human nature as God created us.
2) There is no such thing as original sin with the tendency to sin as one of its consequences.
3) Baptism is only to join us to Christ and is not for remission of sins as stated in the Creed.
4) We can live without committing any sins, and do so without God's Grace.
and the last pelagian error:
5)Grace is not possible.

The only "grace" Pelagius would acknowledge was what some have called "external grace," such as the example of Christ, the teaching of his Apostles, His sermons, parables, etc.,. Note that this excludes Grace through the Sacraments.

There are many statements in the prayers and writings of the Celtic churches on inherited deficiency from the original sin of Adam and Eve. Saint Columbanus of Luxeuil and Bobbio, an acknowledged exemplar of Celtic Christianity in his own lifetime, spoke of Original Sin. He comments on Psalm 50, stating: "the one conceived, inherits material substance from an iniquitous conception" and that we are conceived "imperfect" in "deficiency". A prayer of Saint Ambrose of Milan (339-397 AD) is found in various early non-Roman Western Liturgies including the Lorrha "Stowe" Missal and some Gallican (early "French" Celtic) fragments of Liturgies. That prayer clearly states that we have "inherent impurity".

From this it is clear that the Celtic churches accepted the Orthodox view of Original Sin and could not consider Pelagius' view acceptable.

Since the Pelagian denial of Original Sin denies our need for Christ's Incarnation, that doctrine and Pelagius himself were condemned by many Bishops of his day. Among the Bishops who recognised the threat were the Bishops of the Britons. They requested help from the Celtic Church of Gaul which hadalready condemned Pelagian teachings. The Bishops of the Church of Gaul sent Saint Germanus. Saint Patrick, who was a Priest at the time, is said to have assisted Saint Germanus in this mission to Britain to preach against Pelagius' teachings. So the claim that the Celtic churches shared Pelagius' ideas is clearly false. There were no churches of the Celts that did not condemn Pelagius.

Yetsome modern 'Celtic Christian' groups have chosen to teach some of these same errors.

Such ideas are spiritual poison. They contradict even Christ Himself, Who said, "There is none that liveth that sinneth not." and "this is my blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins." Pelagian falsehood also contradicts the Creed by which we confess that Baptism is for the remission of sins.

It is also incorrectly stated that no Ecumenical Council of the Undivided Church ever condemned Pelagius.

Canon IV of the Third Ecumenical Council which met in Ephesus in 431 condemned the teaching of Celestius because he tried to teach the people of Ephesus that we are born without Ancestral or Original sin. That is the same idea that Pelagius taught. The Council of Ephesus was acting based on the canons of the Synod of Carthage which state in part: "It has pleased the Council to decree that whosoever denies the little ones,newly born from their mother's womb, when they are being Baptised, or asserts that they are baptised for the Remission of Sins, but they have inherited no original sin from Adam obliging them to be purified in the Bath of Rebirth (whence it follows that in these persons the form of baptism for the remission of sins is not true, but is to be regarded as
factitious), let him be anathema: for no other meaning ought to be attached to what the Apostle has said:'Sin entered the world through one human being.'(Romans 5:12)" The Council Ephesus also issued an edict ratifying a letter from Pope Celestine condemning and deposing Pelagius for preaching that same false doctrine in the West. The Celtic churches were represented by Bishops at the Council of Ephesus and those Bishops signed both the canons condemning the rejection of ancestral sin and the letter to Pope Celestine.

From this, it is clear that the Celtic churches stood with the rest of the Church and condemned the denial of ancestral sin and those who taught it.

Let us pray for the conversion of those that teach such errors in our time.

---