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sean_m
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 1/23/2002 2:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello all,
I'm just having problems conceiving of how libertarian freedom is even possible. I guess I'm just having conceptual trouble with the concept of someone chosing someone by means of self-determination. I mean, common sense experience tells me that I have reasons for doing things that are external to me, and are made by character traits inside of me which are malleable by outside stimuli (How do I know something in me needs changing unless something outside of me, including the Holy Spirit, points it out to me, in which case it is an external cause). I read Satan and the Problem of Evil, but I'm not quite getting how saying that causes are non-deterministic helps. I mean, if you have two causes equally pulling at you, it seems almost intuitive you won't make a decision until one cause becomes "stronger" than the other. Can someone help me out with this muddle? Thanks.
Blessings,
Sean
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/24/2002 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey there, Sean.
I agree that you are dealing with a philosophical headache, but I believe there is Biblical reasons for not affirming the idea that all actions are completely determined by external influences.
1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "but remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it."
Do Christians sin? Yes. If what the Bible says is true and no sin [external influence] is unbearable, then how is it possible for any Christian to sin? It's not... unless you adopt some sort of a belief that encompasses free-will.
I believe this to be a strong argument but if there are any questions and objections, please post them.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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teahchan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 1/24/2002 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | HI: In reference to what Jewgrass was saying in regard to free will and sin; I wonder if it is not possible that some of our actions are determined and some are not.I don't necessarily see this as an either or propostion.
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sean_m
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 1/24/2002 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey there, Sean.
I agree that you are dealing with a philosophical headache, but I believe there is Biblical reasons for not affirming the idea that all actions are completely determined by external influences.
Yeah, it is a philosophical headache, but I think it's a very important one. After all, when we talk about freedom, we must be sure that we aren't speaking nonsense.
quote:
1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "but remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it."
Do Christians sin? Yes. If what the Bible says is true and no sin [external influence] is unbearable, then how is it possible for any Christian to sin? It's not... unless you adopt some sort of a belief that encompasses free-will.
I believe this to be a strong argument but if there are any questions and objections, please post them.
I personally like the argument a lot, but I can conceive of the following objection which others would certainly throw at your argument. Many reformed thinkers would accuse you of bad exegesis, because the verse clearly says that it is God who keeps the temptation from becoming greater than you can bear; hence, another external influence that's influencing you, instead of free will. I can conceive of a few replies to this, mainly that even if God keeps the temptation down, it's still a temptation, which you can chose to ignore or give in to. However, I think that this bible verse alone is inconclusive, as it can be exegeted by both sides correctly. Still, it is a very fascinating line of thinking  . Any other comments/verses/help on my philosophical headache  .
Blessings,
Sean
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 1/24/2002 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sean:
There is an excellent article (series actually, I guess) in RTB's magazine "Facts for Faith" (4th quarter, 2001) on the immaterial soul by J.P. Moreland. While arguing against physicalism he touches on the free-will/determinism issue. He makes a distinction between "event-event causation" and "agent causation". He feels that libertarian free will is only definable under the notion of "substance dualism". You would be far better to read the article yourself as I am no philosopher and would probably not be able to render it to you properly.
Might help you
Rob
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sean_m
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 1/24/2002 1:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Rob:
quote:
There is an excellent article (series actually, I guess) in RTB's magazine "Facts for Faith" (4th quarter, 2001) on the immaterial soul by J.P. Moreland.
I'm sorry, I don't have access to this magazine. My college, for some odd reason, doesn't seem to have any subscriptions.
quote:
While arguing against physicalism he touches on the free-will/determinism issue. He makes a distinction between "event-event causation" and "agent causation". He feels that libertarian free will is only definable under the notion of "substance dualism". You would be far better to read the article yourself as I am no philosopher and would probably not be able to render it to you properly.
I would probably have to agree that free will would probably have to be explained in terms of an immaterial soul, though I doubt the necessity (and the validity) of a strict substance dualism. I have my own version of it, but it's probably philosophically not viable. But, thanks for helping; your post got me thinking about how the soul tied into all of this.
Sean
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