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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/31/2003 2:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Confessions of an Open Theist
Becoming an open theist didn’t revitalize my prayer life. It’s still just as hard to make time for prayer as it was before and I’m still just as lousy at it as I was before. When it dawned on me how urgent and important to God’s purposes is our role in prayer I thought, “My prayer life is gonna take off! This is awesome.” But two years later things are pretty much the same. I do pray, but nothing magical occurred.
Perhaps the real lesson is: There is no magic formula. In the end we pray or don’t pray by choosing to do so. And an open theist can be just as undisciplined and lazy as any other sort of theist.
I suppose at the heart of my two-year search that began by joining this discussion site was a hope that in getting it right, in figuring out the truth about God, in being right, would fix what was wrong, that life would fall into place, life would be simpler and more enjoyable. I’m still in it for the wrong reason. I want to gain control by knowing more things, by being right.
Maybe my third year here will see me free of the need to be right.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/31/2003 3:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey big brother, Tom,
You know, you've hit upon what is probably one of the most important elements of walking with the Lord; one can never think that walking will become less of an effort because of what truths we come to know, what revelations we experience, or what miracles have been performed by us or in us. These things ultimately mean little, if nothing at all, in regard to staying the course: walking.
Paul's wonderful words in Phil 3 about pressing toward the mark are not driven0 by a supernatural engine, but by pure determination to know Christ, the power of His resurrection, the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not only are you not alone, brother, but you are ... normal! It just happens to be that "normal" really stinks!
With you all the way, bro ...
Starkman
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geebob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 1/5/2004 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Open theism did make a difference to my piety. Not so much my prayerlife (actually, that's not quite true but I explain that bellow), but I did hit upon a dark time when I had read a common calvinistic prooftext and I realized that if I didn't figure out how to understand that text without believeing that God predestines actively (or by neglect) some to hell, then I would have to leave the orthodox faith and possibly christianity itself. It just dawned on me the absolute and nihilistic absurdity that there was a God who determined that certain people should be condemned before ever getting the chance to be saved. And as absurd as that was, I was afraid that it was true as I had a firm belief that the scriptural picture, though I had not thought through this one aspect of that picture, was the most valid answer to life, and now, if it was true, it was the most horrifying thought that God damns people where they never had a chance. And I was afraid that I was one of those people as I was struggling with my own assurance and confidence, and the truth of calvinism surely would be a death sentence for me as I could not comprehend how any such entity could put anyone in the position that I was in, just created to be a pawn for God's glory, to suffer for eternity, created just to be the enemy of God for his glory at my terrible expence. Even if I was the elect, how could I worship God without restraint knowing that there were some in those horrid shoes that I had once been in placed there ultimately by God's decree?
And the calvinist answer couldn't ring out more with more hollowness and emptyness. They would say that the reprobate hate God and deserve death. Well the problem with that coming from them is that If their picture was true THEN GOD MADE ME TO HATE HIM AND THERE'S NO WAY NOT TO HATE GOD WHEN GOD ORDAINS THAT YOU DO SO!
And so perhaps they would answer in Paul's words "who are you to question the potter" to which the answer is, I'M THE POT ORDAINED BY THE POTTER TO QUESTION THE POTTER!
In this predicament I prayed fervently to God to "Say it ain't so" and to help me to understand those scriptures so that I could have faith in the goodness. I grieved during this time to think that reprobation should prove true and I complained to God about this. So I would study and ask questions of my proffesors, but I had no idea that at the school I attended that there were two major proponents of this new branch of free will theism. I studied some of their literature and found it had very strong scriptural support though it didn't satisfactorily answer all of my questions at the time about some of those passages that seemed to imply individualistic predestination. But it showed me in a powerful way that the calvinistic picture really didn't cohere well with all of scripture. And the open view did point me in the right direction towards understanding those problem passeges through corporate election and the new perspective on Paul.
So in short, Open theism restored my confidence in the goodness of God and showed me a deeper understanding of some scriptures and pointed me in the right direction of others.
But though I could have confidence in the goodness of God, my confidence and assurance in my own salvation did not improve with that much with my studies into the open view. It is a theology, not a formula for piety, but then again, I may not have held on if it was not for this view. And of much importance is that during this time, I learned what it was like to pray fervently and honestly and in future years, that did prove to be helpful. So this debate did contribute to an improvement in my prayer life. Perhaps not in the intended way, but it did help. And I see the providence of God at work at that time leading me to find an answer to restore my confidence in the goodness of God.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/5/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | This just shows that TGB is so ungodly that even WITH a correct theology his rebellious carnal heart STILL won't submit to the Lord who GAVE HIS LIFE for you man! I JUDGE YOU, right here and now, as one more righteous than you. 
More seriously, you're confession TGB is universal, if not on prayer than on action, if not on action than on thought. There's a tremendous disconnect between what we KNOW and what we DO in thought, word and deed. The goal of life, I'm convinced, is to bring these two together. Having a coherent theology doesn't make for a godly life... but having an incoherent theology can be one more obstacle to having an ungodly life. Applied: knowing why it helps to pray doesn't itself make you a prayer warrior, but it clears away one major obstacle to ever becoming one.
For my two cents, I am increasingly convicted of the centrality of personal transformation, becoming an outrageous lover of Christ and outrageous lover of all humans through Christ. And this is SO ENORMOUS and SO CENTRAL I have come to see any preoccupation in anything else -- including (and perhaps especially) theology -- as a distraction. What did Kierkegaard say: "Purity of heart is to will ONE thing." At all times, in all circumstances, in relation to all people. The One thing is union with God through Christ. And this requires all my attention.
Now, I know I can WILL this while doing theology, as much as I can will this doing anything. But its hardest, perhaps, with theology. Because it MAKES SUCH A GOOD SURROGATE GOD. its so easy to be decieved into thinking its the REAL thing when its NOT. In and of itself, its no more godly than playing the stockmarket.
So, hats off to your honesty TGB.
I love openness theology. It helps me live on the edge, evangelize, make sense of the world and a million other things. But its NOT the goal. Believing it in and of itself makes one no closer to the goal than if you were a Calvinist, or a Buddist.
REALITY is the only comodity God trades in.
Over and Out
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 1/8/2004 1:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
2Sa 7:27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
1Ki 8:29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, [even] toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
1Ki 8:38 What prayer and supplication soever be [made] by any man, [or] by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house:
2Ch 6:29 [Then] what prayer [or] what supplication soever shall be made of any man, or of all thy people Israel, when every one shall know his own sore and his own grief, and shall spread forth his hands in this house:
2Ch 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 1/8/2004 4:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow, these are some very sobering posts I have read here. It certainly proves that having a "right theology" does not necessarily cause one to walk in the light of it. We still must contend with our flesh which wants to keep us from doing what we know to be right such as prayer, intercession, fasting (ooh that's hard for me), etc.
I have been blessed in a sense that most of my Christian walk I was taught the importance of prayer. I was very much influenced by the writings of Watchman Nee, R. A. Torrey, Andrew Murray, E. M. Bounds, A. B. Simpson, S. D. Gordon and some of the modern (but strongly criticized) faith teachers like (the late) Kenneth Hagin, E. W. Kenyon, and Finis Dake.
God's foreknowledge was never an issue with me in my earlier Christian walk. I never thought about it much though I believed in it. It only came up when studying eschatology. Even then I never concerned myself with it too much when it came to prayer. However, I admit that occasionally I did wonder about the fact that if God already knew what was going to happen, why did He need me to pray and exercise faith. Nevertheless, I was always able to push such questions to the back of my mind when it came to my time of prayer and devotion. Yet those questions still lingered.
My journey towards Open Theism was due to the fact that I could not offer a valid answer to challenges to my beliefs, whether this challenge came from my daughter who wondered why a God of love who knew that His creation would sin would still go ahead and create them or by others who challenged some of my doctrinal beliefs concerning God, faith and prayer. My OV beliefs have not enhanced nor hindered my prayer life. I struggled with my flesh to pray before becoming an Open Theist and I struggle with my flesh now that I am an Open Theist.
I suppose having the right theology is NEVER going to enhance prayer though as has been pointed out, a right theology certainly removes obstacles to prayer because faith comes from what we have been hearin and it is truth that makes us free (Rom. 10:17; John 8:31-36). People are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6) so without a good theology, prayer could be more hindered. With the correct theology concerning God and prayer our only obstacle then is to just overcome our flesh and apply what we know.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/8/2004 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
Sometime ago, I mentioned Henri Nouwen's (pronouced "Now-un") book, "The Return of the Prodigal Son." Henri passed away on Sept 21, 1996. At present, I'm reading a biographical book on his life titled, "Wounded Prophet: A Portrait of Henri Nouwen" by Michael Ford.
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038549372X/qid=1073578805/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6600258-8921734?v=glance&s=books
Sometimes, when I get to this place of inadequacy, this place of despair, I enjoy reading the lives of other saints. For it helps me realize that I'm not the only one who struggles with my humanness. And I think there is strenght in that.
Carolyn Whitney-Brown a former memeber of L'Arche Daybreak in Toronto where Henri resided in a community with mentally disabled people said this about Henri:
"When I think of Henri, I think of two "books": one is the book that Henri wrote 40 times, yet couldn't quite live; the other is the book that Henri lived for almost 65 years, yet couldn't quite write. The second book waits to be written, as the meaning of Henri's life and wisdom reveal themselves now, after his death."
If you know anything of Nouwen, he LOVED the circus with the trapeze acts being what thrilled him most. But he also had much to say about clowns. Henri said the circus would be depressing if all that the audience did was look up to the artistes whose breathtaking heroics were hard to emulate:
"But the clown saves us: He is our man, because he fails, like we do, he makes mistakes like we do, he says to us, nonvirtuosity are OK too. And in his white face we recognize ourselves in our daily tasks of which so many fail....Christ is the clown who came into our circus and made us laugh because he came to tell us that we are not what we perform. He came for the crying, the persecuted, the weak, the hungry, the poor. He who is called to be a minister is called to be a clown."
Nope, clowns don't evoke admiration, amazement or tension but sympathy, understanding and a smile.
"Clowns are not in the center of the events. They appear between the great acts, fumble and fall, and make us smile again after the tensions created by the heroes we came to admire. The clowns don't have it all together, the do not succeed in what they try, they are awkard, out of balance, and left-handed, but...they are on our side."
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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