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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/21/2002 10:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Rom. 3.1-2: "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God." Rom 9.4-5: "They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all blessed for ever. Amen."
Hi all-
I’m back in Romans reviewing some of the discussion that went on between Doc and Lion-Lamb (hello LL if you’re watching) way back when. This morning as I was reading, I was thinking about the implications of the above passages in chs. 3 and 9. Check them out. Then somebody tell me if I’m on track here. Here’s what I see:
The possession of the law, circumcision, the covenants, worship, etc., were all “advantages” which the Jews enjoyed as a nation. Together these were to influence the nation and prepare it for Christ’s message. Even as Paul writes this letter, this remains the case (especially since Christ had come). The Jews possessed a genuine advantage over the Gentiles in that they possessed in the law, covenants, etc., every encouragement to faith in Christ, whereas Gentiles who did not possess these were at a disadvantage. The advantage then is an advantage with respect to the salvation of Jews.
But if Jewish and Gentile believers are both eternally and unconditionally elected by God for belief in Christ, then it is not true Jews have an “advantage” over Gentiles.
True, Calvinists will argue that any role which the law and traditions play in pointing them to Christ is predetermined secondary agency. In THIS sense any role the items in Paul’s list play influences those elect among the Jews to belief. OK. But it’s also true that Gentiles who are elected to believe apart from the law (Rom. 2.14-15) are at no genuine “disadvantage” for not possessing these. Thus, Jews elected to salvation (or any other Jews for that matter) enjoy no “advantage” OVER Gentiles in that they possess the law, covenants, worship, etc.
Anybody following me? In what sense is Jewish possession of these things an “advantage” over Gentiles if it is also true than Jews and Gentiles elected to salvation are elected to come to faith through predetermined secondary means (whether via the influence of those encouragements listed here, i.e., Jews, or not, i.e., Gentiles)? A Jew elected to find his way to Christ through the preparation and influence of the things Paul lists HAS NO ADVANTAGE over a Gentile who is elected to find his way to Christ without the influence of these things.
I think Paul’s calling the possession of these encouragements an “advantage” over Gentiles only makes sense if it is also true that individuals are not eternally and unconditionally elected by God for salvation. If these influences and encouragements to faith are genuine “advantages,” then this appears to require the view that they really ought to predispose Jews to belief in Christ over and against Gentiles. They give Jews a REAL advantage over Gentiles. But can this really be the case if Jews and Gentiles who constitute the elect are eternally and unconditionally determined by God to come to Christ some through the partial influence and preparation of the Jewish law and covenants and others without these items? In what sense would an elect Gentile be placed at a disadvantage by not possessing the law, covenants, oracles, worship, etc.?
Any Calvinists out there wanna help me out on this one?
Tom
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/22/2002 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey TGB,
I'll toss this in for thought. I think you'll find this very, very interesting!
Consider Genesis 17:12
"He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised...he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your desdendant."
This is crtical, in my opinion, as a contribution to understand this subject you brought up, because in my mind you're dead on. I'd only say that the issue in Romans is Abrahamically based, not at all Calvinistic or Amrme...armine...arm (gads, I
just can't type today - finger's are cold!)...Arminianistic based!
There's our first hint that the structure of relationship between God and man would certainly be on equal ground for all, Jew and Gentile, even back then. There just had to be respect for what I believe is the absolute epitomy of salvation offered by God: His way (the Abrahamic covenant established in circumcision), His truth (the Law and sacrifics), and finally His life (Christ Himself completing the meaning of the pattern).
All start out equal, but the choosing of Abraham is simply, by God's own choice, the means by which to communicate to the world how ALL can find relationship with God.
Nothing of this has to do with Election, Predestination (in the Calvinistic/Arminianistic sense), EDF or OV. None of these extra elements come into focus as part of the Biblical construct, and none of it is the issue in Paul's writings...I believe.
Anyway, here's some very important Scriptures along the same lines of the ones I quoted above. Take a look at them.
Exodus 12:38, 48-49
12:38 - "A mixed multitude (non Israelites) went up with them (Israel) ..."
12:48-49 - "And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. for no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."
(note the dripping theology of tying in the stranger with the circumcision and the Passover...beautiful!)
see also
Deut 1:16
II Chron 30:25
Isaiah 56 (namely verses 6-8)
Ezek 44:9, 47:22
I think this is awesome, TGB!
For the plan,
Starkman
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