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buckyhill
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   Posted 2/24/2002 11:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would like to know how open theism deals with the issue of total depravity. It seems to me that Calvinist doctrine is ultimately based on the notion that all people, since the fall, are incapable of following God. (Romans 3:11) If I am reading things right then an open theist would say that people can choose to follow or not follow God.

Bucky

Jason C. Hill
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Kyle Essary
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   Posted 2/24/2002 3:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From what I have seen people post on this board, and from what I have read, I think it is not that man can choose to follow or not follow God, but more that Christ draws all men, but due to our depravity, we can resist that drawing.

Kyle Essary
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still_unsure
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   Posted 2/24/2002 4:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Bucky:

I can write a quote from Pinnock's book "Most Moved Mover" which probably reflects the view of most open theists (as well as most fron the Arminian/Wesleyan tradition).

"God's love for us is prior to our love for God. John writes, "We love God because He first loved us"(1 Jn 4:19). God's love for us motivates us to love Him in return but the offer has to be accepted for the relationship to happen. Grace motivates the sinner to come home; it does not compel. The prodigal had to decide to re-enter the relationship with his father. He did so when "he came to himself"(Lk 15:17). God takes the initiative and offers us relationship, but we have to choose to enter it. God reveals His love for us in Christ and inspires us by the Spirit to respond. God enables us to make the choice, but He empowers by motivting inspiration and not through irresistable force.

Salvation does not arise out of sinful nature. It is God who saves us; we do not save ourselves. The grace of God at work in us is always preparing us to recieve more grace. There is a role for human participation in salvation but it is grounded in God's gracious empowering, not in inherent abilities."



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Ronald A. Newcomb
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   Posted 3/5/2002 3:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One of the problems humans have is that they proof text to drive home something they believe without looking at an antire picture. We all do this at one time or another. Part of proof texting is taking a generalized concept and making it specific. Romans 3:11 is handled this way by Calvinists. There certainly have been people throughout history who have sought God, so either the verse is false, or it means something else. It is meant in a generalized way, not in a specific way to all individuals. Matthew 8 tells the story of the centurion who came to Jesus and after he had spoken Jesus said 8:10 "When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
This is not to say they can become righteous in God's eyes apart from Christ, but it certainly contradicts the Calvinists notion.
"Neuk'em"

quote:

I would like to know how open theism deals with the issue of total depravity. It seems to me that Calvinist doctrine is ultimately based on the notion that all people, since the fall, are incapable of following God. (Romans 3:11) If I am reading things right then an open theist would say that people can choose to follow or not follow God.

Bucky

Jason C. Hill



Neuk'em
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JoeMoore
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   Posted 3/14/2002 4:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote from Neuk'em]
...There certainly have been people throughout history who have sought God, so either the verse is false, or it means something else...

[Joe]
When it comes to God's relationship to time I am much closer to open theism than to Calvinism. However, I have a significant problem with this statement. People choose ways out of their problems, they seek pleasure, they seek philosophic 'togetherness', etc. But the Bible is clear that the only way someone can 'seek' God is that God reveal Himself to them and/or they are shown a glimpse of who He is.

What looks to us like non-believers 'seeking God' is people seeking the above and then learning to attach the name 'God' to it. If you could look inside their mind you would find no resemblance between the god in their mind and Jehovah.

Joe Moore



Edited by - joemoore on 03/14/2002 09:12:54 AM
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writerdad
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   Posted 3/14/2002 8:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Joe: Shank's interpretation of Romans 3 is how I see the chapter (its in his book, Elect in The Son). In his view, Paul is quoting from a passage in the Psalms that assumes there is a righteous group of individuals who will hear and seek after God. What Paul is doing is making a generalized statement about humanity, not a specific statement about each individual. I came to this view seperate from Shank, but he helped me to see it in a full way.
I look at this way: many times when a sports announcer, when a batter has hit a home run will exclaim, "The home crowd rose as one to cheer the game winning hit." Well, did they? Of course not. I am sure someone was there with a person who wasn't really into sports (A girl friend perhaps), someone just had to go to the bathroom at that point, a child who just didn't care, etc. Was the announcer wrong? No, because he was making a generalized statement about the crowd as a whole, not each individual. Harold

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GODesteem
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   Posted 3/14/2002 11:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Harold writes:

"Shank's interpretation of Romans 3 is how I see the chapter (its in his book, Elect in The Son). In his view, Paul is quoting from a passage in the Psalms that assumes there is a righteous group of individuals who will hear and seek after God. What Paul is doing is making a generalized statement about humanity, not a specific statement about each individual."

Just what rationale do you use to make Paul's statements general ones? How come the whole chapter focuses on the universal condition of both Jews and Gentiles?

"Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one;
Rom 3:11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one."
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving," "The poison of asps is under their lips";
Rom 3:14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
Rom 3:17 And the path of peace they have not known."
Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Rom 3:19 ¶ Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;"

I always wince when people scoff at a Calvinist's take on the word "all" or "world", when they do not believe it means every single human being. Now we have a non-Calvinist doing it! How quaint. Read verse 19 again... "all the world may become accountable to God"... or maybe verse 10....
"for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin..." Is there another group, outside of Jews and Greeks, that is NOT under sin?
Then there is verse 23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." Is the "all" all-inclusive here?

Anyhow, Romans 3:11 is hardly THE proof-text for total depravity. Even if you could interpret the verse otherwise (the context certainly demands Paul is making a sweeping statement, not a general one), the Bible is persistent in establishing the hopelessness of mankind until they are given a new heart. You must be born again before you can even see the kingdom of God!






God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/14/2002 11:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GODesteem said: "the Bible is persistent in establishing the hopelessness of mankind until they are given a new heart. You must be born again before you can even see the kingdom of God!"

Thanks, GODesteem. Fair enough. But since I'm thinking of myself as being somewhere in the middle of this all, would you answer me one question. i'd appreciate it.

What EXACTLY is the until they are given a new heart" part? I mean, what is the precise anthropology of that? I'm serious; so i'd really appreciate a careful answer. Do you mean to say that they get" a different heart; a repaired heart; a never-been used heart; what exactly.

If you can help with that, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

PotOnWheeel
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Tom
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   Posted 3/14/2002 5:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you want to know what a few open theists think about total depravity, check out the HTML thread! :o)

Tom

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writerdad
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   Posted 3/14/2002 5:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Godesteem: the question goes both ways...what rational do you have for believing it is specific?
You may wince if you want, but Calvinism is being successfully challenged in many ways these days and there are alternatives to the interpretation of Romans 3 that are just as valid as a reformed view. If you are interested, read Shank's book. I already gave you a quick view. Having dialogued with you before, I know you are pretty set in your views, so I am not really interested in doing the battle of equally entrenched beliefs. May God bless. Harold
Finally, it should be noted that each verse should be taken in and of itself, so how "all" or "world" is interpreted should be seen within the actual verse. As for me, I have never "scoffed" at how Calvinists use the word (nor I may add, has anyone else, so I suggested Godesteem, finding somewhere else to vent your displeasure at how quaint things are). I may disagree with my reformed brothers, but I don't scoff at them...

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/15/2002 1:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Tom: If you want to know what a few open theists think about total depravity, check out the HTML thread! :o)
No. I want to see what some Calvinists say.

I'm pretty settled on a model of sin-death-sin, etc needing an incarnation to cure. And the Calvinist view seems to prech a virtual reality salvation, not really getting to the anthropological root of our troubles. (I like the traditional Orthodox explanation, rather then either the Arminian or Calvinsit.)

But I STILL want to hear what the Calvinists have to say.
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writerdad
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   Posted 3/15/2002 2:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: I would be curious to know how an Orthodox view would differ from each (if it would be possible for you to do it in your own words and in a reasonable amount of space). Harold
PS...(I think) Tom's advice may have been for the person who originally posted, and not for God esteem.

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GregBoyd
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   Posted 3/15/2002 5:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let it be agreed that we cannot save ourselves. (call it total depravity if you will)

Let it be agreed, therefore, that we need both Christ dying and the Holy Spirit working for us to be saved. Subtract either of these two things and we are lost.

It doesn't follow from this that, given the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit, we MUST be saved (viz. irresistible grace.)

Christ and the Spirit are the necessary condition for salvation. The sufficient condition is that a person yeild to it (not resist it).

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/15/2002 11:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Doc.

Harold, I['m passing throughh quickly; but will try to get back.

PoW
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writerdad
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   Posted 3/15/2002 4:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: I ask because I thought that there were only two (a western idea if ever there was one) views of the subject. I am curious as to how the Orthodox view is different.
Doc: the voice of reason, as usual. As Sproul said in an interview in "The Door" magazine (yes, he was interviewd in THAT magazine). It doesn't matter how you came to faith as long as you have faith. Harold

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/16/2002 8:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
W-dad: PoW, I ask because I thought that there were only two (a western idea if ever there was one) views of the subject. I am curious as to how the Orthodox view is different.

Here is a goodLINK
(http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm) He establishes the importance of understanding the "anthropology" of sin and salvation. And he lays it out.

I edited as far as I could, Harold. Work your way through it.


quote:
"If one is to vigorously and consistently maintain that Jesus Christ is the unique Savior Who has brought salvation to a world in need of salvation, one obviously must know what is the nature of the need which provoked this salvation." . . . "Undoubtedly, one of the most important causes of heresy is the failure to understand the exact nature of the human situation described by the Old and New Testaments, to which the historical events of the birth, teachings, death, resurrection and second coming of Christ are the only remedy." . . . "A correct approach to the Pauline doctrine of original sin must take into consideration St. Paul's understanding of (1) the fallen state of creation, including the powers of Satan, death and corruption, (2) the justice of God and law, and (3) anthropology and the destiny of man and creation."


quote:
I. Fallen Creation

** St. Paul strongly affirms the belief that all things created by God are good. Yet, at the same time, he insists on the fact that not only man, but also all of creation has fallen. Both man and creation are awaiting the final redemption.

** Thus, according to St. Paul, creation as it is is not what God intended it to be--"For the creature was made subject to vanity...by reason of him who hath subjected the same."

** Although created good and still maintained and governed by God, creation as it is is still far from being normal or natural, if by "normal" we understand nature according to the original and final destiny of creation. governing this age, in spite of the fact that God Himself is still sustaining creation and creating for Himself a remnant, is the devil himself.

** To try to read into St. Paul's thought any type of philosophy of a naturally well balanced universe with inherent and fixed moral laws of reason, according to which men can live with peace of mind and be happy, is to do violence to the apostle's faith.

** For this reason all men have become sinners. There is no such thing as a man who is sinless simply because he is living according to the rules of reason or the Mosaic law. The possibility of living according to universal reason entails, also, the possibility of being without sin. But for Paul this is a myth, because Satan is no respecter of reasonable rules of good conduct and has under his influence all men born under the power of death and corruption.

** In regard to the power of Satan to introduce sin into the life of every man, St. Augustine in combating Pelagianism obviously misread St. Paul. by relegating the power of Satan, death, and corruption to the background and pushing to the foreground of controversy the problem of personal guilt in the transmission of original sin, St. Augustine introduced a false moralistic philosophical approach which is foreign to the thinking of St. Paul"

** "For St. Paul, Satan is not simply a negative power in the universe. He is personal with will, with thoughts, and with methods of deception, against whom Christians must wage and intense battle because they can still be tempted by him."

** "The power of death and corruption, according to Paul, is not negative, but on the contrary, positively active. "The sting of death is sin," which in turn reigns in death. Not only man, but all creation has been yoked under its tyrannizing power and is now awaiting redemption. Creation itself shall also be delivered from the slavery of corruption."

** "In spite of the fact that creation is of God and essentially good, the devil at the same time has parasitically transformed this same creation of God into a temporary kingdom for himself. The devil, death, and sin are reigning in this world and not in another. Both the kingdom of darkness and kingdom of light are battling hand to hand in the same place. For this reason, the only true victory possible over the devil is the resurrection of the dead."



quote:

III. The Destiny of Man and Anthropology

(a) The Destiny of Man

** For St. Paul, there is no such thing as normality for those who have not put on Christ.

** Paul calls on Christians to die to this world and the body of sin,[ 87 ] and even to suffer in the Gospel, according to the power of God.

** The relationship of the Divine Will to human wills is not one of juridical or hedonistic submission of the one to the other (as St. Augustine and the scholastics thought), but rather one of personal love. St. Paul claims that "we are co-workers of God."[ 92 ] Our relationship of love with God is such that in Christ there is now no longer need for law. "If ye be led by the Spirit ye are not under the law."[ 93 ] The members of the body of Christ are not called on to live on the level of impersonal ordinances, but are now expected to live according to the love of God as revealed in Christ, which needs no laws because it seeks not its own,[ 94 ] but strives to empty itself for others in the image of the love of Christ.[ 95 ]

** The love and justice of God have been revealed once and for all in Christ [ 96 ] by the destruction of the devil [ 97 ] and the deliverance of man from the body of death and sin,[ 98 ] so that man may actually become an imitator of God Himself, [ 99 ] Who has predestined His elect to become "conformed to the image of His Son,"[ 100 ] who did nothing to please Himself but suffered for others.[ 101 ] Christ died so that the living should no longer live unto themselves,[ 102 ] but should become perfect men, even "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."[ 103 ] Christians are no longer to live according to the rudiments of this world, as though living in this world,[ 104 ] but are to have the same mind as Christ,[ 105 ] so that in Christ they may become perfect.

** The destiny of man is not happiness and self-satisfaction,[ 108 ] but rather perfection in Christ. Man must become perfect, as God [ 109 ] and Christ are perfect.[ 110 ] such perfection can come only through the personalistic power of divine and selfless love,

** Man's body of humility will be transformed to become "conformed" to Christ's "body of glory."[ 115 ] man is destined to become, like Christ, perfect according to the body also. "He Who raised Christ from the dead shall bring to life also your mortal bodies by His Spirit which dwells in you."


(b) Anthropology of St. Paul

as we have said, for St. Paul, the law is good [ 122 ] and even spiritual.[ 123 ] According to the "inner man" this is obvious.[ 124 ] But in spite of the fact that he can possess the will to do good according to the law he cannot find the power to do the good [ 125 ] because he is "carnal and sold under sin."[ 126 ] If he himself, according to the "inner man," wants to do good but cannot, it is no longer he who does the evil, but sin that dwelleth in him.[ 127 ] . . .

It is misleading to try to interpret this section [ 130 ] of Paul according to a dualistic anthropology, which would make the term, sarkikos, refer only to the lower appetites of the body . . .

The flesh as such is not evil, but has become very much weakened by sin and the enmity which dwells in it.[ 144 ]

To understand St. Paul's anthropology, it is necessary to refer not to the dualistic anthropology of the Greek,s who made a clear cut distinction between soul and body, but rather to the Hebraic frame of references, in which sarx and psyche (flesh and soul) both denote the whole living person and not any part of him. . . .

Thus we find that, for St. Paul, to be sarkikos [ 151 ] and psychikos [ 152 ] means exactly the same thing. "Flesh and blood (sarx kai haima) cannot inherit the kingdom of God"[ 153 ] because corruption cannot inherit incorruption.[ 154 ] For this reason, a soma psychikon is "sown in corruption" and raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power."[ 155 ] "A soma psychikon is sown, and a soma pneumatikon is raised. There is a soma psychikon and there is a soma pneumatikon!"[ 156 ] Both the sarkikon and the psychikon and dominated by death and corruption and so cannot inherit the kingdom of life. This only the pneumatikon can do. "However, the pneumatikon is not first, but the psychikon, and afterward the pneumatikon. The first man is from the earth; earthy; the second man, the Lord, from heaven."[ 157 ] That the first man became eis psychen zosan (a living soul), for Paul, means exactly that he became psychikon, and therefore subject to corruption,[ 158 ] because "from the earth, earthy..."[ 159 ] Such expressions do not admit of any dualistic anthropology. A soma psychikon "from the earth, earthy," or a psyche zosa "from the earth, earthy," would lead to impossible confusion if interpreted from the viewpoint of a dualism which distinguishes between the body and soul, the lower and the higher, the material and the purely spiritual. What, then, would a psyche zosa be, which came from the earth and is earthy? In speaking of death, a dualist could never say that a soma psychikon is sown in corruption. He would rather have to say that the soul leaves the body, which alone is sown in corruption.

Neither the psyche nor the pneuma is the intellectual part of man. To quote I Corinthians 2:11 (tis gar oiden anthropon ta tou anthropou ei me to pneuma tou anthropou to en auto?) or I Thessalonians 5:23 (Autos o Theos tea eirenes hagiasai hymas holoteleis, kai holokleron hymon to pneuma kai he psyche kai to soma amemptos en te parousia toy K.H.I.X. teretheie) does not prove otherwise. One cannot take these expressions in isolation from the rest of Paul's writings for the sake of trying to make him speak the language of even a Thomistic dualist, as is done, for example, by F. Prat in La Theologie de s.Paul, t.2, pp. 62-63. Elsewhere, in speaking against the practise of certain individuals' praying publicly in unknown tongues, St. Paul says, "If I pray in an unknown tongue my pnuema prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the pneuma and I will pray with the mind also."[ 160 ] Here a sharp distinction is made between the pneuma and the nous (mind). Therefore, for St. Paul, the realm of pneuma does not belong within the category of human understanding. It is of another dimension.

In order to express the idea of intellect or understanding all four evangelists use the word, kardia (heart).[ 161 ] The word, nous (mind), is used only once by St. Luke.[ 162 ] In contrast, St. Paul makes use of both kardia [ 163 ] and nous [ 164 ] to denote the faculty of intelligence. Nous, however, cannot be taken for any such thing as the intellectual faculties of an immaterial soul. Nous is rather synonymous with kardia, which in turn is synonymous with the eso anthropon.

The Holy Spirit is sent by God into the kardia, [ 165 ] or into the eso anthropon, [ 166 ] that Christ may dwell in the kardia.[ 167 ] The kardia and the eso anthropon are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. Man delights in the law of God according to the eso anthropon, but there is another law in his members which wars against he law of the nous.[ 168 ] Here the nous is clearly synonymous with the eso anthropon, which in turn is the kardia, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and Christ.[ 169 ]

To walk in the vanity of the nous, with the dianoia darkened, being alienated from the life of God through ignorance, is a result of the "hardening of the heart--dia ten perosin test kardias."[ 170 ] It is the heart which is the seat of man's free will, and it is here where man by his own choice either becomes blinded [ 171 ] and hardened,[ 172 ] or else enlightened in his understanding of the hope, glory, and power in Christ.[ 173 ] It is in the heart where the secrets of men are kept,[ 174 ] and it is Christ "Who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the heart."[ 175 ]

It would be absurd to interpret St. Paul's use of the expressions, eso anthropon and nous, according to a dualistic anthropology by ignoring his use of the word, kardia, which is in perfect accord with the New Testament and Old Testament writers. By using such words as nous and eso anthropon, Paul is certainly introducing new terminology, foreign to traditional Hebraic usage, but he is definitely not introducing any new anthropology based on Hellenistic dualism. St. Paul never refers to either psyche or pneuma as faculties of human intelligence. His anthropology is Hebraic and not Hellenistic.

In both the Old and New Testaments, one finds the expression, to pneuma tes zoes (the spirit of life), but never to pneuma zon (the living spirit).[ 176 ] Also, one finds psyche zosa (the living soul), but never psyche tes zoes (the soul of life).[ 177 ] This is due to the fact that the psyche, or sarx, lives only by participation, while the pneuma is itself the principle of life given to man as a gift from God,[ 178 ] "Who alone hath immortality."[ 179 ] God gives man of His Own uncreated life without destroying the freedom of human personality. Thus, man is not an intellectual form fashioned according to a predetermined essence or universal idea of man whose destiny is to become conformed to a state of mechanical contentment in the presence of God whereby his will become sterile and immobile in a state of complete self-satisfaction and happiness (e.g., according to the Neo-platonic teaching of St. Augustine and the Roman scholastics in general concerning human destiny). The personality of man does not consist of an immaterial intellectual soul which has life of itself and uses the body simply as a dwelling place. The sarx, or psyche, is the total man, and the kardia is the center of intelligence where the will has complete independence of choice to become either hardened to truth or receptive to divine enlightenment from without. The pneuma of man is not the center of human personality, nor is it that faculty which rules the actions of men, but rather it is the spark of divine life given to man as his principle of life. Thus, man can live according to the pneuma tes zoes or according to the law of the flesh, which is death and corruption. The very personality of man, therefore, although created by God Himself, remains outside of the essence of God,a nd therefore completely free either to reject the act of creation, for which he was not consulted, or to accept the creative love of God by living according to the pneuma, given to him for this purpose by God.

"The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the spirit is life and peace."[ 180 ] Those who live according to the flesh shall die.[ 181 ] Those who mortify the deeds of the flesh by the spirit shall live.[ 182 ] The spirit of man, however, deprived of union with the vivifying spirit of God, is hopelessly weak against the flesh dominated by death and corruption [ 183 ]--"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death."[ 184 ] And, "the law of the pneumatos tes zoes (spirit of life) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."[ 185 ] Only those whose spirit has been renewed [ 186 ] by union with the Spirit of God [ 187 ] can fight the desires of the flesh. Only those who are given the Spirit of God and hear Its voice in the life of the body of Christ are able to fight against sin. "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."[ 188 ]

Although the spirit of man is the principle of life given to him by God, it can still partake of the filthiness of fleshly works. For this reason, it is necessary for Christians to guard against the corruption not only of the flesh, but of the spirit, also.[ 189 ] The union of man's spirit with the Spirit of God in baptism is no magical guarantee against the possibility of their separation. To become again enslaved tot he works of the flesh may very well lead to exclusion from the body of Christ.[ 190 ] The Spirit of God is given to man that Christ may dwell in the heart.[ 191 ] "Now if any an have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His."[ 192 ] To have the Spirit of God dwelling in the body is to be, also, a member of the body of Christ. To be deprived of the one is to be cut off from the other. It is impossible to be in communion with only part of God. Communion with Christ through the Spirit is communion with the whole Godhead. Exclusion from the One Person is exclusion from all Three Persons.

"The works of the flesh are manifest..."[ 193 ] "The mind of the flesh is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[ 194 ] Such people are enslaved to the power of death and corruption in the flesh. They must be saved from the "Body of this death."[ 195 ] On the other hand, those who have been buried with Christ through baptism have died to the body of sin and are living unto Christ.[ 196 ] They are no longer living according to the desires of flesh, but of the spirit. "The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance--against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."[ 197 ]

It is clear that, for St. Paul, the union of man's spirit with the Spirit of God in the life of love within the body of Christ is life and salvation. On the other hand, to live according tot he desires of the flesh, dominated by the powers of death and corruption, means death--"For the mind of the flesh is death."[ 198 ] St. Paul is dealing throughout his epistles with the categories of life and death. God is life. The devil holds the reins of death and corruption. Unity with God in the Spirit, through the body of Christ in the life of love, is life and brings salvation and perfection. Separation of man's spirit from the divine life in the body of Christ is slavery to the powers of death and corruption used by the devil to destroy the works of God. The life of the spirit is unity and love. The life according to the flesh is disunity and dissolution in death and corruption.

It is absolutely necessary to grasp the essential spirit of St. Paul's usage of the words, sarx, psyche, and pneuma, in order to avoid the widespread confusion that dominates the field of inquiry into Pauline theology. St. Paul is never speaking in terms of immaterial rational souls in contrast to material bodies. Sarx and psyche are synonymous and comprise, together with the pneuma, the total man. To live according to the pneuma is not to live a life according to the lower half of man. On the contrary, to live according to the sarx, or psyche, is to live according to the law of death. To live according to the spirit is to live according to the law of life and love.

Those who are sarkikoi cannot live according to their original destiny of selfless love for God and neighbor, because they are dominated by the power of death and corruption. "the sting of death is sin."[ 199 ] Sin reigned in death.[ 200 ] Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.[ 201 ] So long as man lives according tot he law of death, in the flesh, he cannot please God [ 202 ] because he does not live according to the law of life and love. "The mind of the flesh is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be."[ 203 ] In order to live according to his original destiny, man must be liberated from "the body of this death."[ 204 ] This liberation from the power of death and corruption has come from God, Who sent His own Son "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deliver man "from the law of sin and death."[ 205 ] But, although the power of death and sin has thus been destroyed by the death and resurrection of Christ, participation in this victory can come only through dying to this world with Christ in the waters of baptism.[ 206 ] It is only by dying in baptism and then continuously dying to the rudiments and ways of the world that the members of the body of Christ can become perfect as God is perfect.

The importance that St. Paul attributes to dying to the rudiments of this world in order to live according to the "spirit of life" cannot be exaggerated. To try to pass off his insistence on complete self-denial for salvation as a product of eschatological enthusiasts is to miss completely the very basis of the New Testament message. If the destruction of the devil, death and corruption is salvation and the only condition for life according to man's original destiny, then the means of passing from the realm of death and its consequences to the realm of life, in the victory of Christ over death, must be taken very seriously. For Paul, the way from death to life is communion with the death and life of Christ in baptism and a continuous life of live within the body of Christ. This new life of love within the body of Christ, however, must be accompanied by a continuous death to the ways of this world, which is dominated by the law of death and corruption in the hands of the devil. Participation in the victory over death does not come simply by having a magical faith and a general sentiment of vague love for humanity (Luther). Full membership int he body of Christ can come only by dying in the waters of baptism with Christ, and living according to the law of the "spirit of life." Catechumens and penitents certainly had faith, but they either had not yet passed through death, in baptism, to the new life, or else, once having died to the flesh in baptism, they failed to remain steadfast and allowed the power of death and corruption to regain its dominance over the "spirit of life."



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 03/16/2002 1:33:03 PM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/16/2002 9:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I edited as far as I could, Harold. Work your way through it.
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writerdad
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   Posted 3/16/2002 11:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks...I will...

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writerdad
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   Posted 3/16/2002 11:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: this is too important a subject to be edited. I think I'll got to the site and read the whole thing...thanks! Harold

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/16/2002 1:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Blessings on you, Harold.

As a parallel matter, I read recently that God dsires our repentance rather than our remorse. The repentance seems like a colaborative matter with us and God. We need his life in us to do so--to go down another path. Remorseful emotions can be induced by art, and by cajoling. But does it last. The "house built on rock, that actually gets built coarse by coarse (sp?) is the thing.

May God build the house.

PoW


PotOnWheel

(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")

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rb1963b
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   Posted 3/17/2002 4:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm, I think 1 John 2:2 shatters calvinism.

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Winghead
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   Posted 3/19/2002 4:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doc wrote:
quote:

Let it be agreed that we cannot save ourselves. (call it total depravity if you will)

Let it be agreed, therefore, that we need both Christ dying and the Holy Spirit working for us to be saved. Subtract either of these two things and we are lost.

It doesn't follow from this that, given the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit, we MUST be saved (viz. irresistible grace.)

Christ and the Spirit are the necessary condition for salvation. The sufficient condition is that a person yeild to it (not resist it).



I am often amazed at how wonderfully concise you can be! Amen!

In Christ,
Winghead

"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Terry_Baxter
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   Posted 3/19/2002 6:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks to buckyhill for bringing up this topic. I do think it is important.

Although Dr. Boyd is concise in his answer, he seems very concise on this topic, moreso than many others. The general 'glossing over' the topic of salvation I see perfomed by many OV proponents is still one of my outstanding concerns and led me to post on this board a while back.

In that "Openness and Salvation" thread, I had asked:

quote:

1) Is salvation really by God alone, by faith alone, according to an openness perspective?

2) If all other choices are freely chosen without God's foreknowledge, is this not true of salvation making salvation essentially “up to us”?

3) If God so determines the phenomenological world such that only one choice is effectively possible, and OV allows this (admits it), does this make the (only?) major difference between traditional theology and OV the belief in EDF?

4) If God does intervene occasionally in this world to limit our choice set, on what grounds does OV contend he does not (ever or even regularly) do it as regards salvation?

5) IF God does intervene sometimes and all but force people to believe, doesn’t the fact that he refrains from intervening to that extent in every case amount to God determining who is saved and who isn’t?

By the way, if 3, 4, & 5 truly reflect the OV, it isn’t much different from several determinist folks as presented in Sproul’s _Willing to Believe_, except for EDF. (God makes choices necessary, but without compelling or forcing compliance.)


To (1) I think Boyd’s answer is no. Since he states “The sufficient condition is that a person yeild to it (not resist it).” I’m not trying to revive a ‘definition of works’ argument, but one of Calvin’s main arguments against this very argument is that work=credit (a clear biblical concept). If the chosing or yeilding is mine to do, I get the credit and the glory. Thus, to Calvin, Boyd’s view would be heresy because it makes us responsible for our salvation. . . I think. (I don’t have my Calvin or Sproul in front of me for citations. As always I’m happy to be corrected or clarified.)

This leads to (2) being a “yes”. Boyd’s language of necessary vs. sufficient conditions could obscure this point.

Then I took a different approach because I think Calvinism vs. Arminianism is foolybear and traps us in philosopher-speak. I wondered about the case of Saul in (3) and (4), and the cases of several people who regularly post on the CV boards who have testified that God ‘intervened’ in their lives in some non-trivial way. I, too, have experienced God ‘forcing Himself’ into my life. Others haven’t and presumably will go to hell because of it.

Yet several people here seem to think that people can and do experience Godly interventions and still refuse Him. I’m not sure if they believe that everyone experiences such an intervention. Regardless, I’m of the opinion that only a few possibilities exist:

(a) if people do experience God’s intervention and resist/refuse to yield of their own free will and thought, they are either insane or mentally deficient. I don’t know how to theorize about the salvation of infants, the severely mentally challenged, or the insane, but that’s for another topic anyway.

(b) if people do experience God’s intervention and resist/refuse to yield because God hardened their hearts then the traditional view could accept this and there is no real conflict between worldviews here. Why God would both play against himself this way is a bit of a conundrum.

(c ) if not all people expereince God’s intervention (a la Saul, myself, and several others who post here) to the point where the recipient is ‘all but forced to believe’, then God plays favorites and ‘elects’ some. At the least, God could give everyone a Saul-like burning-bush type experience but apparently choses not to while the Homer Simpsons of the world cry out, “Jebus, give me a sign!”

Please note, I have no problem with God ‘playing games’ with humans and electing some and damning others. No moral judgement of God is implied.

Finally, for those who concur with Dr. Boyd, do you not agree that these statements

quote:
Let it be agreed that we cannot save ourselves.


and

quote:
The sufficient condition is that a person yeild to it (not resist it).


have already been ‘asked and answered’ of Calvin (et. al) as a contradiction? Moreover, that such a view gives (partial) credit for salvation to humans which is unacceptable philosophically and scripturally to those who believe in ‘God alone’? I see Boyd’s post as playing ‘halfsies’ with salvation along semantic lines. It is a (wise) rhetorical choice to emphasize the similarities between OV and The Tradition and makes perfect sense considering the firestorm of criticism that could erupt over a ‘heretical’ (or at least Arminian) view of salvation.

But if Boyd won’t, perhaps others will respond to a Calvinissant critique of Boyd:

We agree thus far on salvation, good Doctor! Would you not also agree that at the point where the Holy Spirit works in someone’s life toward salavation, that person is regenerated (that is, given a new heart)? Therefore, the person cannot help but to yield to God because the new heart desires what the corrupted heart of stone before it could not—to serve God. Praise be to God for being solely responsible for our salavation!

Under the mercy,
Terry

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Winghead
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   Posted 3/20/2002 5:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Terry,

Several things come to mind when I read your comments.

First, the issue of salvation -- soteriology -- is not really an issue of the Classic or Traditional view vs. the Open View. Rather, it is one of the Calvinist/Augustinian view on the one hand and the Arminian/OV on the other. Perhaps it boils down to a couple issues:

a) Can we resist God's saving grace?

b) Is our choice to receive salvation a meritorious work?

The Arminian and Open view say Yes to (a) and No to (b). Suffice to say, Calvinists disagree, and go to great lengths to prove that those of us who hold the Arminian or OV are wrong. We remain unconvinced.

quote:

The general 'glossing over' the topic of salvation I see performed by many OV proponents is still one of my outstanding concerns and led me to post on this board a while back.


I am not sure what you mean by "glossing over" the topic of salvation. If you mean that in the OV discussions salvation does not come up, I would say that makes sense, because the OV is essentially no different soteriologically than the Arminian view, as noted above. In the OV the point is not salvation, but foreknowledge.

That said, if you want a detailed handling of Soteriology by an Open Theist, I highly recommend Clark H. Pinnock's book, "A Wideness in God's Mercy."

Terry asks:
quote:

1) Is salvation really by God alone, by faith alone, according to an openness perspective?


Yes.

Terry asks:
quote:

2) If all other choices are freely chosen without God's foreknowledge, is this not true of salvation making salvation essentially “up to us”?


What do you mean by "salvation"? Is it the justification for our sins -- the shed blood for the Lamb of God? Is it through Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and the life? Does it include God's calling to us? Does it involve God's supernatural regeneration through the Holy Spirit? None of this is "up to us."

However, if you mean, "How do we receive salvation?" Then, yes, it is up to us to say "yes" to God. Interestingly this is not something the Calvinist objects to, if you qualify it with the observation that God enables us to say "yes." What the Calvinist objects to is that we can say, "No" to God. Think about it.

Here's an observation, though. Calvinism claims that God does NOT choose us by his foreknowledge. It is predestination, not foreknowledge, that is at the heart of why some are saved under the Calvinist view. The wording of (2) suggests an Arminian position.

Terry writes:
quote:

3) If God so determines the phenomenological world such that only one choice is effectively possible, and OV allows this (admits it), does this make the (only?) major difference between traditional theology and OV the belief in EDF?


If there is only one choice, then it is not a choice at all. To have a choice, you must be able to choose one option at the exclusion of another. To be "determined", then the outcome must be settled, as with the case in the Calvinist view.

That said, the Bible does not give any examples where God forces people to act outside their character. In the case of Peter denying Christ, all that was required is to have Peter be asked about his relationship to Jesus three times. Under the conditions, all God would have to do is raise the question in people's mind, and they would willingly ask it -- out of their own curiosity, not compulsion. It need not even be that intrusive. A vague recognition -- as scripture suggests was the case -- is all that is necessary.

Terry asks:
quote:

4) If God does intervene occasionally in this world to limit our choice set, on what grounds does OV contend he does not (ever or even regularly) do it as regards salvation?


I personally think scripture teaches that God is always intervening for our salvation. The central theme in the Bible, and a primary implication of the Great Commission, is the redemption of mankind. This is one of the reasons why the Calvinistic idea of limited atonement is so baffling to me. If the following verse is true...

This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 (NRSVA)

...and God's grace is really irresistible as Calvinism says, then all will be saved. Yet we know that all are not saved. This must mean that God's grace can be resisted, because scripture cannot be false.

Terry:
quote:

Yet several people here seem to think that people can and do experience Godly interventions and still refuse Him.


I would be one of them.

Terry:
quote:

I’m not sure if they believe that everyone experiences such an intervention.



I do not think anyone can say to what extent "everyone" experiences God. Scripture only shows us examples of some that say "yes" to God and some that say "No" to God. It tells us that God rewards those who diligently seek him (Heb 11:6). Paul used the idol to the "unknown God" as a way of acknowledging that some seek Him that they do not know.

Terry asks:
quote:

Finally, for those who concur with Dr. Boyd, do you not agree that these statements

quote:
Let it be agreed that we cannot save ourselves.


and

quote:
The sufficient condition is that a person yield to it (not resist it).


have already been ‘asked and answered’ of Calvin (et. al) as a contradiction?



Keep in mind, one does not have to be an Open Theist to disagree with Calvin (et al). I will answer your question as someone who is NOT a Calvinist.
No, the questions have not been "answered". Calvin, et al, have attempted to answer them, and admittedly believe they have indeed proven it as a contradiction. However, they have done so with philosophic argument, not with the whole of scripture. This is why there are still Arminians or Open Theist disagreeing with their conclusions.

Terry says:
quote:

Moreover, that such a view gives (partial) credit for salvation to humans which is unacceptable philosophically and scripturally to those who believe in ‘God alone’?


Arminianism or the OV does not give "credit for salvation" to humans. That is an inference made by Calvinist, not a claim by Arminian or Open Theist.

Yours in Christ,
Winghead


"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Terry_Baxter
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   Posted 3/20/2002 9:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rather than risk hijacking this thread with my long-windedness and hot button issues, I'll start a new thread for my response.

Wing (and others!) please join me there!

TB

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