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Perhaps it boils down to a couple issues: a) Can we resist God's saving grace? b) Is our choice to receive salvation a meritorious work? The Arminian and Open view say Yes to (a) and No to (b).

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But if we can accept without God fundamentally changing us, then we are not totally depraved.

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Should we accept that? The concept of "total depravitiy" is not exactly in the scriptures. Yes, we all sin. Yes, we have a propensity to sin. Yes, we cannot be good enough. But do scriptures really teach that we are not able to say "yes" or "no" to God? There is a distinction.

Wing said:

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In the OV the point is not salvation, but foreknowledge.

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Terry said:

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I read Boyd to say that “the point” is free will, but I acctually agree with you that foreknowledge seems to be the only real (and necessary) difference between the two views (although you might argue that foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive).

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My point is that it appears that Calvinist often bring up soteriology when talking about the foreknowledge. Paul Helm did this in the book "Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views". While it is true that Calvinist hold a different view on salvation than the OV and Arminian position, the OV's understanding of salvation is not what distinguishes it from classical theism, i.e., Arminianism or Calvinism.

With regards to Greg's comments, it is probably best to get clarification from him. We have all responded to so many quotes, the connections can get "muttled". If Greg was saying free will is "the point", then I would expect he was speaking of Calvinism vs. the Arminian and OV position.

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yes, it is up to us to say "yes" to God. Interestingly this is not something the Calvinist objects to, if you qualify it with the observation that God enables us to say "yes." What the Calvinist objects to is that we can say, "No" to God. Think about it.

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Just an aside: what would give you the impression I haven’t thought about it?

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I was speaking rhetorically.

Wing said:

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If there is only one choice, then it is not a choice at all. To have a choice, you must be able to choose one option at the exclusion of another. To be "determined", then the outcome must be settled, as with the case in the Calvinist view.

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Terry said:

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Whoo boy. This is the key issue. .... I’d ask though, do you not believe a person can be said to ‘freely choose’ even when there is one obvious, clear, right and overwhelming choice? or when we only consider one option (i.e. we freely choose the one and only thing we have considered)? I think the answers are yes and that we do this all the time. In a sense, it is making your life an ‘amen.’ I need to do some more reading from OV’ers, but I’m getting this sense that free will is undertheorized.

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Yes, I believe we can freely choose, even when there is only one, "right and overwhelming choice". However, there are almost always other choices, though not so "right". We can, for instance, choose to turn our cars into oncoming traffic, but of course normally choose to obey the traffic laws and live.

When discussing free will, it is important to note that we do not have absolute free will. All choices have consequences. All choices are made within constraints. I just don't see why there needs to be an "all or nothing" attitude, though. Our choosing freely does not make God less, especially since we would be acting as he created us to be, i.e., to be able to choose. Nor does the apparently "right and overwhelming" choice to receive salvation make that choice necessary. In other words, we can resist and say no. Why would one do this? All I know is that scripture reveals a God who gives us choices, who asks us to make decissions, to trust him, AND that scripture shows that some do trust him and some do not. I am reminded of the verse:

Immediately the father of the child cried out, “I believe; help my unbelief!” Mark 9:24 (NRSVA)

This is a great prayer!

Wing said:

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That said, the Bible does not give any examples where God forces people to act outside their character.

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Terry said:

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What, then, is your analysis of Saul on the road to Damascus? His character was murdering Christ(ians) until God basically forced him to rethink this.

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The operative word is "rethink". Paul could have cursed God, or rebuked the "vision". I believe he did not because in his heart, he wanted to serve God. Perhaps up to that point, he thought Jesus was a fake? Acts 9:5 has Saul asking "who are you?" He apparently did not recognized Jesus.

Terry said:

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Several people on this board, including myself, have testified to a God-in-my-face experience that shook them out of doubt and unbelief.

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Certainly God does this. But remember what scripture says about the people of Capernaum:

And you, Capernaum,
will you be exalted to heaven?
No, you will be brought down to Hades.
For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Matt. 11:23-24 (NRSVA)

Note here that the people of Capernaum apparently largely rejected him, despite the many signs and wonders. Nor does this verse suggest that they were unable to say "yes" -- the Lord seems to hold them responsible for what they did NOT do.

Terry observes:

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It seems clear to me from experience, but also from narrative rather than theological scriptures, that God intervenes for some in a much stronger way than he does for others whatever his desire may be. To rehash my old argument: how many people go to hell for want of a Damascus road?

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First, I would suggest you read Pinnock's book. He will give you something to think about on this issue.

That said, I think God gives us just what we need. He also gives it to us WHEN we need it. Sometimes people want it all to happen "now." For me, I had to go a long way through the New Age movement before God could get me to seriously consider the Jesus of the Bible. We don't always know what God does to draw people to himself.

I said:

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several people here seem to think that people can and do experience Godly interventions and still refuse Him. I would be one of them.

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Terry said:

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Without proof-texting, can we find examples of this in scripture? The only time I recall someone denying clear phenomenological evidence that God is God is when He Himself hardens their hearts for some reason. (PoW believes that they harden themselves first, but I don’t see this scripturally or logically.)

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The Matt 11 verse I quoted earlier comes to mind.

Terry said:

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I do remember stories of people falling away from faith years after the miracle, but that would be more of a ‘proof’ of people losing their faith than denying it.

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When I hear that, I wonder what people had their faith IN. Was it faith in God, as with Abraham, which was counted as righteousness? Or, was it faith in the miracle, or their religious activity. People will usually say they had faith in God, but then will give some situation where things did not meet their expectations. Perhaps that is why Jesus affirmed the commandment to LOVE God.

I said:

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It tells us that God rewards those who diligently seek him (Heb 11:6). Paul used the idol to the "unknown God" as a way of acknowledging that some seek Him that they do not know.

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Terry reflects:[quote]And I think this is all some people have and they come to faith through it. Indeed, some seek because Grandma’s Bible get’s passed down to them. Some flip past the televangelists and stop long enough to say a sinner’s prayer. But for others, these same experiences aren’t enough. Why doesn’t God knock them down, blind them and boom His audible voice saying “BUDDA WON’T SAVE YOU BUDDY, BECAUSE I AM THE ONLY WAY!”?

Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”
John 20:29 (NRSVA)

Terry:[quote]Or put another way, what was it about Paul that ‘allowed’ God to force faith on him (or Modes or me, etc.)? Was it because he was sincere but hopelessly misguided and this was literally the only way God could reach him?

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Perhaps, but it might be because of what the Lord was going to ask Paul to do, i.e, go through.

Terry:[quote]One last thought: any form of persuasion can be thought of as a denial or ‘over-riding’ of free will. ... Yet OV’ers seem to believe that God ‘persuading’ us to salvation is unproblematically compatible with free will.

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