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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 4/11/2002 5:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | "…Take the doctrines (or teachings) of God's foreknowledge and determination separately and look at what the Bible says about each of them. Proving that men have free wills does not prove that God does not have exhaustive (or infinite) foreknowledge." - Abbie
"God knows all things that exist; the question is whether the future exists (predetermined) or not." - Obadiah
"Therefore, in Acts 15:18, God knows all of His works, 1) Some as absolute 2) Some as possible 3) Some as doubtful." - Bob
"For what can scape the eye Of God all-seeing, or deceive his heart Omniscient?" - Milton
Infinite foreknowledge, is the unlimited awareness of all actualities, before only one literally occurs? Prescience or foresight of all possible realities does not determine which one, ‘possibility’, will exist; it simply knows only one will, and God is very aware of its existence, before it actually occurs.
Although, all of humanity throughout the ages is a confusing mixture, of an infinite collection of possibilities of existence, for every individual, each wandering any and everywhere: A literal Omnium-gatherum-vagant.
God, infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows all things possible as possible, certain as certain, contingent as contingent, and all things foreordained as predestined conclusion.
God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge.
That I am the desire of God and His being; loved and born to love, this is the miracle of life; Gods creation.
Or in other words,
The Knowledge of events before they occur throughout the ages, is a confusing mixture of certainty and an infinite collection of contingent possibilities, wandering through time: A literal Omnium-gatherum-vagant.
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(o)
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 4/11/2002 6:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | "Abbie" and "Obediah" -- you must have just come from Bob Hill's site. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/12/2002 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm afraid I don't know how to respond to your post, Tim. It just sort of sits there. Were you looking for a response? A discussion? A question? Or just wanted to state a view (or collection of views?)
Either way, I of course agree
I think
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 4/13/2002 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | You have responded just fine and there is no need for a discussion of the matter, unless you desire to or have any questions. It is just, the middle of a conversation at Bob Hill’s site, stating my view and I thought I might state it here for review.
I also very much liked the statement, ‘Infinite Intelligence’, as pertaining to God, I think, I mean, I agree or of course, Doc.
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 4/17/2002 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | For review? OK, let's review them:
quote:
"…Take the doctrines (or teachings) of God's foreknowledge and determination separately and look at what the Bible says about each of them. Proving that men have free wills does not prove that God does not have exhaustive (or infinite) foreknowledge." - Abbie
One thing we need to understand is that a truth claim, that is a statement that someome makes in the affirmative, claiming it to be true, does not make it true. There are more false truth claims out there than there are true truth claims. So, whoever Abbie is and whoever Bob Hill is, is irrelevant. This statement at face value is true, free will is not a disproof of exhaustive foreknowledge, however, it is a fatal kink in the armor so well built up over time and defended by many false truth claims, stories, analogies, etc. Why is it a fatal kink? Because they cannot both be true at the same time and in the same manner.
quote:
"Therefore, in Acts 15:18, God knows all of His works, 1) Some as absolute 2) Some as possible 3) Some as doubtful." - Bob
To say that God knows all of his works, or plans is a statement about God's plans, not his foreknowledge. This does not support your point. Read Boyd's books.
quote:
"For what can scape the eye Of God all-seeing, or deceive his heart Omniscient?" - Milton
See above. This is a non-issue.
quote:
Infinite foreknowledge, is the unlimited awareness of all actualities, before only one literally occurs? Prescience or foresight of all possible realities does not determine which one, ‘possibility’, will exist; it simply knows only one will, and God is very aware of its existence, before it actually occurs.
How does this happen? Where does the claim come from? This isn't scripture, so what support is made for it? That other before you believed it to be true, regardless of their positions or education is irrelevant, the only relevant thing is whether it is true or false. It is false. It is a truth claim that has no Biblical support, but lots of people in history, all the ways back to Augustine, then Plato before him who believed it to be true. Of course Plato was a pantheist and his god was names "Fate." Because Augustine syncretized Plato to Christianize it does not make it true any more that Catholicism syncretizing with Voodoo in Haiti makes Voodoo true.
quote:
Although, all of humanity throughout the ages is a confusing mixture, of an infinite collection of possibilities of existence, for every individual, each wandering any and everywhere: A literal Omnium-gatherum-vagant.
Many mystic educational systems (including medicine) use foreign languages (usually Latin) to confuse the issues to try to protect the ideas from attack. In one sense this is an example of trying to say "don't question me, I'm an expert" like Robin Williams in Hook yelling at the kid "Don't mess with me, I'm an attorney." Personally, I think the OV demystifies the complexity spoken of here. When I was young, I couldn't figure out how it all fit with reality. The Presbyterian church didn't put the pieces together and neither did the Baptist church (sorry Pastor LaHaye). There were these large holes that couldn't make sense of the theological constructs in light of reality. Common were phrases like "God's ways are not our ways" used as magic dust to stop the questions I had. Finally, they just said "get out" (by then, not LaHaye, but Jeremiah). So much for answers from the Bible.
quote:
God, infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows all things possible as possible, certain as certain, contingent as contingent, and all things foreordained as predestined conclusion.
Well, it's according to how you view this. If you believe people are predestined to be saved, then you have a problem with my brother and niece. Both are illegitimate, my brother before marriage and my niece by an adulterous relationship. If they are predestines, then all of the requisite events leading to their salvation are necessarily requisite as well. Are you saying that God planned for my mother to be screwing around with guys before marriage, and how about the aborted first conceived child? Was my sister forced into the adulterous relationship so she could have her second born from a "the other man" in her life? This is necessarily true if you are implying that God predestined both to be saved (they are). You have just made God the planner of these sins in my family. To brutal for you? Should we visit the holocaust? Pol Pot? Stalin? ad nauseum?
quote:
God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge.
This is true, but needs to be separated from the rest of the fairy tail.
quote:
The Knowledge of events before they occur throughout the ages, is a confusing mixture of certainty and an infinite collection of contingent possibilities, wandering through time: A literal Omnium-gatherum-vagant.
Evolutionists do this also, the error is: given enough time, and anything is possible. This is a logical fallacy since the second law makes time the enemy of probability, not it's friend.
Do you see how people default to a form of mysticism (in the broad sense) to defend themselves from being examined by rational thought? The mysticism comes in making something a secret. Here we hide behind A Latin phrase, complexity, and time. The problem is, it is unworkable. The statement, as pious as it sounds, cannot work. This reminds me of the chaos theories proposed to explain the complexity of nature without God. The problem they had and that they realized very quickly was that to describe chaos, the had to use very precise mathematical models as defined by Mandelbrot. Well, so much for chaos.
I don't believe it is all that complex. confusing, "deep" or mystical. It is simply not the confused Hellenistic theology of Augustine, Calvin, or Beza.
Making truth claims without a defense will simply not produce truth, though, for the masses who turn off their brains, it may create quite a following.
"Neuk'em"
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 4/18/2002 1:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey "Neuk'em",
I truly do appreciate your overview of my post Newcomb; you bring up the many fine points of my statement, which do indeed need to be reconciled with Scriptural truth, thank you.
Greg Boyd, who is an open view teacher, in reflection upon the statement, obviously took a different stance then you did, wonder why?
"God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge."
Newcomb: This is true, but needs to be separated from the rest of the fairy tail.
Tim: People have responded many different ways to my statement; some see me as opposing the open view, and others see me as embracing it. Although when I formed the statement, I had no idea what the open view was. I was simply appealing to the many thoughts of Calvinist and attempting to lead them out of the lie, they find themselves in. As I add to my statement, which may not be soon, your input will bring greater clarification, to what I am attempting to do, again, thanks for your honest appraisal.
Furthermore, in no way, do I disagree with many of the fine points you bring up, however I find no need to review each one individually, because I agree. What I disagree with, that you have to say, eh, no big deal to me…
In God’s Love,
Tim
Edited by - Tim on 04/18/2002 06:47:22 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 4/18/2002 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | I will get to all of your questions Newcomb, as quickly as possible, however, I wanted to post something to let you know, I desire the same thing you do, TRUTH!
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 4/18/2002 4:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey there again, Newcomb,
Please note, that this is taken from the middle of a conversation, over many weeks, from another forum and might be somewhat awkward for someone else to view, without knowing the whole story, leading up to my affirmative statement.
"Infinite foreknowledge, is the unlimited awareness of all actualities, before only one literally occurs? Prescience or foresight of all possible realities does not determine which one, ‘possibility’, will exist; it simply knows only one will, and God is very aware of its existence, before it actually occurs."
Newcomb: How does this happen? Where does the claim come from? This isn't scripture, so what support is made for it?
Tim: I offer four elements, not just one, concerning Gods understanding or ‘intelligence as Greg would put it’, of knowing what will happen before it does: possibility, certainty, contingency, and predestination. The following dice story is a word picture, explaining ‘possibility’ only,
Consider the throwing of dice, every few seconds, over a few years, and knowing all of the possible sequences of combinations, which could exist, before actually throwing the dice and such, would be foreknowledge, but not infinite.
Now, when you actually throw the dice every few seconds, over a few years; only one sequence of numbers, out of all the possible known combinations, of sequences, of numbers, would or could exist.
"God, infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows all [those] things [, which are] possible as possible, certain as certain, contingent as contingent, and all [those] things [, which are] foreordained as predestined conclusion.
Newcomb: Are you saying that God planned for my mother to be screwing around with guys before marriage, and how about the aborted first conceived child? Was my sister forced into the adulterous relationship so she could have her second born from a "the other man" in her life?
Tim: No
You have just made God the planner of these sins in my family. To brutal for you?
Tim: No
Should we visit the holocaust? Pol Pot? Stalin? ad nauseum?
Tim: No need, I am not a fatalist.
"God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge."
Newcomb: This is true, but needs to be separated from the rest of the fairy tail.
Tim: This entire statement started as a creative attempt, to get Calvinist to change their minds.
In God’s Love,
Tim
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 4/19/2002 12:57 AM (GMT -6) | | "Openness suggests that the future is not actuality but potential and thus God cannot know what does not exist, but this is not a limitation on God but merely a logical truth if there are to be free creatures."
Tim: Logic suggests there is no effect without a cause, yet many refuse the idea of an uncaused cause, namely, God. God is only limited, in that He possesses universal knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. God can know what does exist, as potential actuality or all possibilities, before it actually does occur though. That is to say, God knows all or the full ramifications of the choices, set before man, by Him.
"What do you think about this and the apparent biblical support for such notions (Gen 22:12; Deut 13:3; Jer 32:35)?"
Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Deu 13:3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jer 32:35And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Tim: The apparent biblical support for such notions, as God knowing all things, should recognize logical limitations on that knowledge.
"Can we speak of God being all-knowing and yet recognize logical limitations on that knowledge?"
Tim: Again, Yes!
Edited by - Tim on 04/19/2002 06:01:06 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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