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halo14x
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 4/22/2002 5:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/22/2002 7:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Halo-
Nice site. Wish I had time to jump into the discussion. I especially laughed when one guy said open theism had already been "debated into the ground."
No time!
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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Seymour
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 4/23/2002 12:09 AM (GMT -6) | | I yi yi!
A very fundegelical site! I was turned off by just about every sentance i read. they seem to hate everyone who isn't a white strait christian (which means protastant because they hate catholics) man who agrees that only white strait christian men know everything!
puke. reminds me of trying to read J.I. Packer or Chuck Coleson without losing my lunch along the way or blowing steam out of my ears deepending on my humor at the time.
Some folks dance cool, all angels and swaying hips, Sensual as all get out and in. Me, I'm a hick, and I dance like one, I just kinda jump around and grin.
--Greg Brown
Edited by - Seymour on 04/23/2002 05:11:09 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/23/2002 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | It'd be comical if it weren't for the fact that its probably indicative of what the majority of laypeople think about the subject.
It's a bit frightful how confident people can be about matters they know nothing about.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/24/2002 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Maybe some of these people know more than an enlightened Open Viewer thinks. Or maybe they are able to realize that their position as creature instead of creator should give pause to concerning themselves with the possibility that God may or may not know or plan something(s).
I'm curious Seymour. Why would you think these people are white strait protestants who hate Catholics? Have you asked any of them? I'm also curious with your reply Dr. Boyd. You obviously must have read Seymour's post. Do you agree with his thoughts? Or do you just ignore it when someone posts a message like that? I realize that you're addressing the original post about the other message board, but I would think as a pastor you'd have something to say to a person who would "puke" at reading Chuck Colson. Or do you think that's a valid opinion? I'm only asking this because I've been reading this message board for several months, and I'm trying to understand the point of all this, and what your intentions are besides trying to show people the real "God of Possibilities"
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Seymour
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 4/24/2002 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm curious Seymour. Why would you think these people are white strait protestants who hate Catholics?
Okay if push comes to shove i'll have to qualify my post. i'm sure that there are a bunch of different peolpe who post there. but from what i read that's what being said.
quote:
Have you asked any of them?
nope, i just read some (not all, just a quick survay until my stomach started turning) of what they posted.
my favorite one was a post about how sick this dude was of feminists. he started complaing that if Jesus was a woman these feminists would probably belly ache that they crusified a woman.
On a sidenote, John Ashcroft (not exacly a feminist) has been doing a lot of belly aching about a certain statue of a female Christ on a crusifix. so i guess it wouldn't just be the feminists who would have a problem wiht it.
quote:
…but I would think as a pastor you'd have something to say to a person who would "puke" at reading Chuck Colson.
Speaking of people who are confident about matters they know nothing about, did anyone read Chuck Colson’s back page article in the latest CT?
Some folks dance cool, all angels and swaying hips, Sensual as all get out and in. Me, I'm a hick, and I dance like one, I just kinda jump around and grin.
--Greg Brown
Edited by - Seymour on 04/24/2002 8:31:16 PM
Edited by - Seymour on 04/24/2002 8:32:16 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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seer
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 4/24/2002 4:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey guys,being a long time poster at CARM,I would like to say that you have it all wrong.The issue of open theism has been debated quite a lot. Me being one who leans in that direction. And most of the folks there are up to date on this belief. And Seymour,what is your problem? Do you always have such kneejerk reactions?
Edited by - seer on 04/24/2002 9:15:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/24/2002 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Hello Dr. Boyd,
I'm trying to understand the purpose behind all this intent on getting people to see the Open View as the truth. I've read some of your work, so I would qualify myself as reasonably educated about the doctrine. It's statements like the following that confuse me.quote:
It'd be comical if it weren't for the fact that its probably indicative of what the majority of laypeople think about the subject.
What do you believe a majority of "laypeople" think about the subject? Do you think they've been horribly mislead? Or are they just ignorant? Please help me on this. Since it's not comical, you must mean that it's sad. What I think is sad is that so many Christians are swayed by the winds of modern thought and foolish doctrine. It tickles their ears, and they like the feeling.
quote:
It's a bit frightful how confident people can be about matters they know nothing about.
You should be frightened. We should all be frightened. A sinister confidence brims in arrogant man. God has revealed Himself in Holy Scripture as one not to be mocked. Yet I read all these different deductions about what God has revealed regarding his character and being. I don't claim at all to know exactly how He sets things in motion, or plans, or predestines. All I know is that confining the Creator of the universe to some human level of comprehension is dangerous. That goes for Arminians, Calvinists, O.V.er's, etc. So I would caution anyone who tries to extrapolate any limitations on God, from Scripture, by particular passages, to be extremely wary of their purported confidence.
Don't mistake me to believe that we shouldn't study God. It is essential. I only wonder that when we meet our great and glorious God, how much we'll be amazed at the feeble grasp we had of His magnificence, holiness and glory.
Trusting in His purpose for my life and all who believe,
R.J.
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/24/2002 6:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Speaking of people who are confident about matters they know nothing about, did anyone read Chuck Colson’s back page article in the latest CT?
You discredit yourself when you make such statements. I do not agree with all things Chuck Colson says or does. I'm not a fan of everything James Dobson says, nor Greg Boyd. Yet, do I respect their intent as Christians? Yes. Do they build people up and strengthen believers? Yes. Would I expect them to reverse an opinion if they truly came to believe that they were mistaken in their thoughts and actions? Yes. Would I shake their hands and call them brother? Yes. Would I tell them if I found fault in their teaching as Scripture and the Spirit would lead me? Yes. Would I listen to them and learn from the things they say that are good and true as supported by Scripture? Yes.
Seymour, anger can be righteous and appropriate; is that what yours is? Or is it bitterness? Think carefully about that. Do not knee jerk your response. Pray about it. Read Scripture. God will show you if you sincerely ask, and He will provide the means to fight against it if it is unrighteous.
James 1:19-20 This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.
God did not impress that on my heart overnight. So no matter where you're at, take solace in knowing that He is God, and will complete His good work if you are in Him. And if you're not angry, forgive my presumption.
Edited by - allryledup on 04/24/2002 11:29:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/24/2002 6:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi all-
Can't comment now, but I really wanna come back to this 'cause I do believe it's important HOW we discuss the open view (and other issues too).
Love, love, love, love to all!
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/24/2002 6:29 PM (GMT -6) | | PS...
This is hal14x's fault! Let's gang up on him/her! 
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/24/2002 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | How come I get a little trash can that says "delete reply" on my posts? Is someone trying to tell me something? 
R.J.
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adiaphora
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 123
| Posted 4/24/2002 8:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How come I get a little trash can that says "delete reply" on my posts? Is someone trying to tell me something?
R.J.
Welcome R.J. The reason a little trash can shows up on your posts is that it is a symbol (not a suggestion  ) for deleting your own post, if you want to.
Blessings,
adiaphora
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/25/2002 2:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Couple of comments…
I’ve confessed this elsewhere several times, but it is frustrating to me to encounter so much misunderstanding about the open view, especially on the part of those one would expect to be able to articulate it accurately. I read and re-read Ware, Geisler, and others and just don’t see that they’ve even understood the open view, or if they’ve understood it, why they articulate it so inaccurately at times. I often say to myself, “If that’s what open theism was really saying, then I wouldn’t believe it either.”
I imagine that some of us bring our frustrations to this site and blow off steam sometimes. I know I do. Obviously we don’t want to be unloving to people, but if somebody who is known to be otherwise fair and objective lets off some steam, let’s think the best of them first. Of course, we open folk want to give others (like those I read on the site in question) the same freedom (we probably create steam in them too!). I didn’t particularly read enough of the site to notice. I saw more people dismissing the open view in a sentence or two. What attempts to articulate the view I looked at weren’t really that accurate.
Seer, thanks for the comment. Personally I’d be very happy if the several posts I looked at represent the minority of the posters and that most really understand the OV well. I’ll take your word for it.
RJ, I don’t think people are ignorant, but I do think many layfolk are mislead. Many hear about the OV and immediately jump into Ware and Geisler and never even get around to reading Boyd, Pinnock, or Sanders. And for them to form their opinions of the OV strictly on a reading of its opponents is to be mislead, for they’re not about to meet the OV there.
RJ: A sinister confidence brims in arrogant m[e]n.
Tom: I’m glad women are exempt from such arrogance!
RJ: All I know is that confining the Creator of the universe to some human level of comprehension is dangerous. That goes for Arminians, Calvinists, O.V.er's, etc. So I would caution anyone who tries to extrapolate any limitations on God, from Scripture, by particular passages, to be extremely wary of their purported confidence.
Tom: This is what I mean. How does the open view “confine the Creator to a human level of comprehension”?
Blessings,
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd
Edited by - TGB on 04/25/2002 07:56:44 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/25/2002 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tom,
quote:
Love, love, love, love to all!
Tom
Hey, I'm ready to paint flowers on a VW van and go for a ride!
quote:
I read and re-read Ware, Geisler, and others and just don’t see that they’ve even understood the open view
I've read and re-read Scripture trying to find the Open View. Snippets of Scripture standing alone may present it. Not when taken in with the full text of 66 books though.
quote:
Tom: This is what I mean. How does the open view “confine the Creator to a human level of comprehension”?
Well, there seems to be some sort of intent to determine what God does and doesn't know. It's like hyper-Calvinism in reverse. Hyper-Calvinism leads towards some sort of weird view that God is a puppet-master and controls every twitch and thought in a person. Not Scriptural. The Open View seems to strain for a sense of a God existing in time as fits our human desires. That's all. I understand why people would like that view. I think my life experience causes me to not want to tamper with how God sets things in motion and maintains it. I just don't wonder whether or not He may know something in the future. I just believe Scripture tells me He knows more than I can imagine. It's like trying to ponder the origin of evil and why God didn't just crush Satan when he rebeled. Interesting topic, but to try and determine God's role or "responsibility" is ridiculous. We'll know when we pass from this life. Main thing to remember is we're man and He is God. We are sinners in need redemption and He knew that was going to happen from the beginning of time; had our names written in the Book of Life before creation, and planned to have His Son die for those who are His children. Some people seem to forget that. (not implying that you do Tom)
God's blessings to you,
R.J.
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Seymour
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 4/25/2002 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Main thing to remember is we're man and He is God.
What if we are women?
Some folks dance cool, all angels and swaying hips, Sensual as all get out and in. Me, I'm a hick, and I dance like one, I just kinda jump around and grin.
--Greg Brown | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/25/2002 7:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: I’ve read and re-read Ware, Geisler, and others and just don’t see that they’ve even understood the open view.
RJ: I've read and re-read Scripture trying to find the Open View. Snippets of Scripture standing alone may present it. Not when taken in with the full text of 66 books though.
Tom: I totally appreciate your claim (and Ware’s and Geisler’s) to believe the OV is not biblical. That’s not what frustrates me. But if I were opposing your view I’d owe it to you and others listening in to articulate your view accurately (let’s say to articulate your view to YOUR satisfaction). See my point?
RJ: Well, there seems to be some sort of intent to determine what God does and doesn't know.
Tom: I don’t think that’s the intent that drives the OV, but certainly if it exists as an “intent” then it’s true of everybody on both sides of the issue. Ware, Geisler, and company are very intent on arguing their answer to the question regarding God’s knowledge. Open theists are not the first ones to make this a topic of discussion. So the desire (or intent, or whatever) to understand God’s knowledge as it relates to us hardly is a strike against the open view, wouldn’t you agree?
RJ: The Open View seems to strain for a sense of a God existing in time as fits our human desires.
Tom: It’s hardly a “strain” to argue that God experiences the flow of time. In fact, the timeless view of God has been questioned (and abandoned) by folks who don’t even like the open view, some on the Calvinistic end of the spectrum and others on the Arminian end. So it’s not exclusively an “open view” issue.
I’m not sure what “as fits our human desires” relates to.
RJ: I think my life experience causes me to not want to tamper with how God sets things in motion and maintains it. I just don't wonder whether or not He may know something in the future. I just believe Scripture tells me He knows more than I can imagine…Main thing to remember is…He knew that was going to happen from the beginning of time.[italics mine]
Tom: RJ, on the one hand you don’t wonder whether or not God may know something in the future, while on the other hand the main thing to remember is that God knew what was going to happen from the beginning of time. I’m confused. Which is it? When you say “God knew that was going to happen” are you limiting this to God knowing we’d sin and that Christ would die for us? Or would you include everything in that? If you’re just speaking of humankind’s sin and God’s plan to send Christ, then hey, you’ve got OVers who agree with you on that.
Hey adiaphora, can we get some peace signs, daisies and doves to paste in along with our smilie faces for those like RJ and me who like VW vans?
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/26/2002 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tom,
I really appreciate that you take time to respond to me. Too bad we don't have the time to hop in a VW bus go for a ride and talk about the God we love.
quote:
But if I were opposing your view I’d owe it to you and others listening in to articulate your view accurately (let’s say to articulate your view to YOUR satisfaction). See my point?
I confess I'm not the best at detailed debate. I don't think I contradict myself, but I do realize from my post that I sort of present a 2-sided argument. Dang this human brain! But I still think I know what I'm saying!quote:
Tom: RJ, on the one hand you don’t wonder whether or not God may know something in the future, while on the other hand the main thing to remember is that God knew what was going to happen from the beginning of time. I’m confused. Which is it?
I don't wonder about it because I believe He ordains all things. I don't think it's contradictory. I trust His sovereignty and purpose in "all" things, past, present and future. That oozes from Scripture to me. So, what I'm saying is what's the point of worrying whether He may or may not know something? Of course He does! (know and plan all things, that is)
quote:
It’s hardly a “strain” to argue that God experiences the flow of time.
I have no problem with that. I never said He doesn't experience the flow of time. I think the present as we see it is incredibly relevant to God. But I have a hard time trying to leave it at that. That's where I say we better be careful trying to assert whether God may know or plan anything from this moment on. When tragedy strikes, I cannot remove God from the equation (I know you don't either, yet I think we see the formula in a different way) but I believe from my life experiences that things which have gone wrong were not just under observation from God, they were under His guidance and occurred for a reason. I may feel pain, wonder why and complain to my Father, and at the same time I can't go to the extent of removing Him from the cause, and just look to Him for an explanation that there was some uneccessary reason behind event. If I'm wrong, well, I'm more comfortable believing experience and Scripture teach me that. I fret over the idea that God is not behind all things; even future events, and even planned them. I guess from a human standpoint that seems unreasonable, but I surely believe God has set me on a path that I will eventually get to the end of, as is the case with all creation with greatest care for all detail. Tom, sometimes I think we are not always so far apart on things, and at other times I see a great chasm. But I believe you are a Godly man who loves Jesus (for what that's worth ) I don't think I'll continue posting because I know I can't debate as this forum would look for. Tom, you could plow me under! In any event, I pray for all of us; that we tremble before our Holy God, and at the same time know we have the amazing comfort and joy of His grace poured out on us through Christ Jesus.
God's grace to you,
R.J.
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/26/2002 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Ron: Main thing to remember is we're man and He is God.
quote:
What if we are women?
One last post. I pray that this issue will soon die. It doesn't seem as it will though. Unfortunately Zondervan felt compelled to add to this disaster of semantics. Seymour, if someone who read my post wouldn't understand that "man" meant males and females, that's one where I'd have to lite up a good Dominican, sit back and shake my head at the absurdity of the human condition.
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 4/26/2002 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Allright, one more post
quote:
But if I were opposing your view I’d owe it to you and others listening in to articulate your view accurately (let’s say to articulate your view to YOUR satisfaction). See my point?
Dang it! I didn't read that right. You were saying that I need to articulate your position well to respond correctly. You're right about that. I don't think I could or ever will. It seems to take some wizardry of thought that I don't possess (The Open view probably says the same about my position!) Okay, now I'm done. I'll keep checking in to stay informed as best as I can.
R.J.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/26/2002 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | RJ: Too bad we don't have the time to hop in a VW bus go for a ride and talk about the God we love.
Tom: Now you’re talking! RJ…I like you.
RJ: I don't wonder about it because I believe He ordains all things.
Tom: So what that means I think is that you’ve stopped wondering about it. OK. That’s cool. As long as you still like VW vans. I mean, we have to draw the line of fellowship somewhere!
RJ: Tom, sometimes I think we are not always so far apart on things, and at other times I see a great chasm.
Tom: I know exactly how you feel! I think we have far more in common than not.
RJ: But I believe you are a Godly man who loves Jesus.
Tom: Two things: First, this is the basis upon which all disagreements ought to be discussed, and secondly, saying this reveals a lot more about YOU than it does ME!
RJ: I don't think I'll continue posting because I know I can't debate as this forum would look for. Tom, you could plow me under!
Tom: Get thee behind me etc. etc.! Keep the posts (if not on this thread, then elsewhere) coming, RJ. The forum is for everybody. Listen, I’m a total klutz when it comes to debating the finer points of philosophy and stuff. So don’t worry about me, I don’t even know how to plow! But I can drive a VW van.
RJ: In any event, I pray for all of us; that we tremble before our Holy God, and at the same time know we have the amazing comfort and joy of His grace poured out on us through Christ Jesus.
Tom: Preach it! I hear the choir singing…
RJ: You were saying that I need to articulate your position well to respond correctly. You're right about that. I don't think I could or ever will. It seems to take some wizardry of thought that I don't possess…
Tom: If it took wizardry I’d a never made it in the door. It’s really pretty simple and easy. In fact, you probably assume much of the open view in the way you live your life every day, the way you make choices, love others, and plan for the future.
Hang in there!
Pax,
Tom
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