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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/28/2002 9:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | Trusting the Lord and the Open View
The Bible teaches that one is have trust in the Lord; full assurance, unwavering confidence in God. What does that mean to an Open Theist, and how is it supported biblically? For what does the Open Theist trust the Lord and what is the basis of that trust? Here are some verses, followed by an analogy that I've pulled from another thread:
Ps 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Pr 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance ; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
As an analogy, I proffer the following hypothetical (which was first posted in another thread):
Let's say my 8-year-old son and I are together in the car on our way to the market. We see a horrible car accident: A man and his young son are struck by another vehicle that seems to come out of nowhere. Nobody sees it coming. At first, both trapped in the car, but the father gets himself free. Unfortunately, as the father is moving toward the back of the vehicle to attempt to get his son out, the car explodes, killing the son. Let's suppose this has a huge impact on my son, as it would anyone. He is afraid to ride in a car now because he doesn't want that to ever happen to us. Is there any way to relieve his worry based upon his trust in *me* to keep him from harm? Could I blame the father in the accident for being negligent and assure my son that I would be more careful than that guy? Could I say that the man in the accident didn't love his son the way I love mine? Could I say that father failed to do *anything* that would have prevented that accident? Why is it logical for my son not to trust my ability to keep him from this kind of harm should he decide to ever ride in a car again? Because, from his perspective, all future car excursions are *partly* open. I can do my best about the "closed" parts: making sure my son is in his safety seat, not driving recklessly, not driving with distractions, etc. So even though my son can trust me to do the best I can about those things, that still does not satisfy his anxiety. Why? Because maybe the father in the accident made sure of all those things, too, and he still couldn't do anything to prevent his son from dying.
Now let's ask the question differently: What would I need to do (or be able to do) in order to *truthfully* secure my son's trust that such an accident will never happen to him should he decide to ride in a car again? I would have to *close* the future. I would have to know exhaustively and control meticulously all things without exception.
So I must ask, precisely what are we trusting in God for, if He Himself cannot guarantee everything about the future?
Antio,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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Tom
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| Posted 4/29/2002 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | James-
I don’t know if I’m the only one who sees this, but it seems to me that your line of questioning is off. I don’t think the sort of assurance God gives us is analogous to the sort of assurance you’re supposing the father gives his child in this case. The analogy is less than true to life for the simple reason that this sort of assurance is impossible. We don’t make such assurances to our children, nor is such assurance possible; so I fail to see how this is “analogous” to anything. Analogies are supposed to link up to some aspect of life “as we know and live it.” For what it’s worth, as far as the analogy goes I’d simply tell my child that I can’t guarantee that a similar terrible thing will never happen to him. I would encourage him to consider the constant demonstration of my love for him in the past as reason for believing I’ll drive as safely as possible. But as for absolute assurance that accidents won’t befall him or me, there is none. So, your insisting on an answer to your question presupposes the answer your looking for. But it’s the question that’s off.
For what it’s worth,
Tom 
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/29/2002 9:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tom,
Thanks for your comments.
Tom writes:quote:
I don’t know if I’m the only one who sees this, but it seems to me that your line of questioning is off. I don’t think the sort of assurance God gives us is analogous to the sort of assurance you’re supposing the father gives his child in this case.
I'm willing to grant that, providing I can understand the sort of assurance God gives according to your view. Please explain: On your view, what kind of assurance does God give?
Tom writes:quote:
The analogy is less than true to life for the simple reason that this sort of assurance is impossible. We don’t make such assurances to our children, nor is such assurance possible; so I fail to see how this is “analogous” to anything.
It is intended to be analogous, or to draw out its incongruities, to the assurance, trust, confidence the Bible urges us to have in God. The analogy is purposed toward defining what is and is not required to have a true trust, assurance, confidence in God.
Tom writes:quote:
Analogies are supposed to link up to some aspect of life “as we know and live it.”
I agree. I want to see if it links up with life as Open Theists know it and live it trusting God and having confidence and full assurance as the scriptures exhort. Precisely where does the Open Theist's trust in God lie? And to what end?
Tom writes:quote:
For what it’s worth, as far as the analogy goes I’d simply tell my child that I can’t guarantee that a similar terrible thing will never happen to him. I would encourage him to consider the constant demonstration of my love for him in the past as reason for believing I’ll drive as safely as possible. But as for absolute assurance that accidents won’t befall him or me, there is none.
Very well stated. I fully agree. For the sake of the discussion, I want to ask what may seem obvious; please indulge me: Why is there no absolute assurance?
Domo arigato,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
www.tgfonline.org
Edited by - hilston on 04/29/2002 3:02:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 4/29/2002 1:33 PM (GMT -6) | | hilston
For the sake of the discussion, I want to ask what may seem obvious; please indulge me: Why is there no absolute assurance?
Iconoclast
Because God gave man freewill?
thanks,
Iconoclast
These two things are true of every living center:
1. Each center gets its life, always, from the fact that it is helping to support and enliven some larger center.
2. The center becomes precious because of it.
Christopher Alexander
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/29/2002 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Iconoclast,
Perhaps I need to be more specific.
TGB wrote: quote:
For what it’s worth, as far as the analogy goes I’d simply tell my child that I can’t guarantee that a similar terrible thing will never happen to him. I would encourage him to consider the constant demonstration of my love for him in the past as reason for believing I’ll drive as safely as possible. But as for absolute assurance that accidents won’t befall him or me, there is none.
Why cannot the father guarantee his son's safety or give his son absolute assurance that an accident won't befall him?
Put another way, what would have to be true in order for the father to guarantee his son's safety and give his son absolute assurance that an accident will not befall him?
Efcharisto polu',
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/29/2002 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Put another way, what would have to be true in order for the father to guarantee his son's safety and give his son absolute assurance that an accident will not befall him?
The Heidelberg Confession has an answer: Take him home.
quote:
The Heidelberg Catechism Q & A #42
Q.
Since Christ has died for us,
why do we still have to die?
A.
Our death does not pay the debt of our sins.^1
Rather, it puts an end to our sinning
and is our entrance into eternal life.^2
^1 Ps. 49:7
^2 John 5:24; Phil. 1:21-23; 1 Thess. 5:9-10
That is what the Father can do.
(Happened to my niece. She is with Him now.)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.S. - But besides that, there is no answer...because as Icon said: "Because God gave man freewill?"
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/29/2002 7:40:31 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/29/2002 2:38 PM (GMT -6) | | It looks like I'm not being specific enough. Let me try again:
Barring the removal of his son from this earthly life, what would be the required scope of the human father's ability and knowledge in order to guarantee his son's safety and give his son absolute assurance that an accident will not befall him?
Remember, this is a hypothetical analogy, drawn for the purpose of illustrating logical relationships and exploring the parameters of the Open Theist worldview.
Domo,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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Winghead
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 4/29/2002 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Hilston,
This is my second reply. My first one was of course awesome, and would have obsolutely converted you to Open Theism  . Alas, the web browser did one of those "things" and I lost my post, and I cannot reproduce it.
Hilston:
quote:
Barring the removal of his son from this earthly life, what would be the required scope of the human father's ability and knowledge in order to guarantee his son's safety and give his son absolute assurance that an accident will not befall him?
Remember, this is a hypothetical analogy, drawn for the purpose of illustrating logical relationships and exploring the parameters of the Open Theist worldview.
I do not thing this line of argument will help you understand the OV better. Neither the OV or Calvinism guarantees such assurance.
Scripture calls us to trust God in all things, and of course, to pray. In all cases, God remains trustworthy.
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/29/2002 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Winghead,
It's been a while. Good to hear from you again :)
For some reason, everyone so far has completely missed the point of my question.
Winghead writes:quote:
I do not thing this line of argument will help you understand the OV better. Neither the OV or Calvinism guarantees such assurance.
OF COURSE they don't! That's NOT my question. Look at it as a hypothetical scenario. For the sake of the discussion, forget Calvinism; forget Open Theism. Just imagine a scenario and see how it logically plays out. In order to free your mind, I will put this in terms of an imaginary creature in an imaginary universe.
Imagine a fantasy planet, Glerp, in a fantasy universe. There is a sentient Glerpian entity named Blark who has a sentient offspring named Krolp. Imagine that Blark has justifiably and truthfully informed Krolp that it can trust Blark to protect it from harm. That is , when Blark says, you may be absolutely assured that I will protect you from all harm, it is actually and absolutely true. So Blark is a being who is able to actually guarantee Krolp's safety and give absolute assurance that an accident or harm of any other kind will not befall it. Barring Blark's removal of Krolp from existence, what would be the required scope of Blark's ability and knowledge? What would it have to be able to know and do for this scenario to be actually and logically true?
Winghead writes:quote:
Scripture calls us to trust God in all things, ...
I agree. What, in your opinion, does that mean? Does it mean you should trust Him to keep you from harm? Does it mean you should trust Him to provide food and clothing for you and your family? Does it mean you should trust Him to fulfill His promises?
Winghead writes:quote:
... and of course, to pray.
On the Open View, what does that have to do with trusting God?
Winghead writes:quote:
In all cases, God remains trustworthy.
On the Open View, what does this mean? He is worthy of your trust regarding ... what? Your safety? Your sustenance? Your job? Your provision?
Thanks for considering my questions.
Gracie',
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
www.tgfonline.org
Edited by - hilston on 04/29/2002 9:31:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
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Total Posts : 132
| Posted 4/29/2002 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Hilston,
Winghead said:quote:
I do not thing this line of argument will help you understand the OV better. Neither the OV or Calvinism guarantees such assurance.
I want to take that back. In thinking about my own experience in processing the OV, I realize I also had to work though the idea of how I can trust God in the OV paradigm.
My answer to you partially reflects my own processing of the issue. In the OV, God is no less able to protect us, and he is just as trustworthy.
The challenge for all of us is when things go "wrong" -- when bad things happen. We are still called to trust God. It is often during these times that we find him conforting and guiding us, and of course loving us.
This scenario does raise issues of theodicy. IMO, the OV has better answers in this area, because it does not put the responsibility on God to the extent that the Augustinian position does. In any case, I think Wolfhart Pannenberg was right when he said that we cannot consider issues of theodicy without also considering eschatology. God's perspective is always eternal. At the consumation of the ages, God sets all things right. Then, there will be no more tears.
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/29/2002 5:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Winghead,
Thanks for your comments. I have a few questions:
Winghead writes:quote:
Scripture calls us to trust God in all things, ...
I agree. But I want your opinion on what that means:
(1) Does it mean you should trust Him to keep you from harm?
(2) Does it mean you should trust Him to provide food and clothing for you and your family?
(3) Does it mean you should trust Him to fulfill His promises?
Winghead writes:quote:
... and of course, to pray.
Question: On the Open View, what does that have to do with trusting God?
Winghead writes:quote:
In all cases, God remains trustworthy.
I agree. I wonder if you might elaborate. On the Open View, what does this mean? He is worthy of your trust regarding ... what? Your safety? Your sustenance? Your job? Your provision?
Thanks for considering my questions.
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/29/2002 5:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi, Winghead.
Winghead: I think Wolfhart Pannenberg was right when he said that we cannot consider issues of theodicy without also considering eschatology.
quote:
PoW:
Is TIME a two-way street? (Or, does what go around come around?)
===================================
I was reading Pavel Florevsky's "Iconostasis" last night. The first part pertains to dreams. As he puts it TIME moves BOTH forwards AND backwards. Interesting. In waking life time moves forwards. (Kant gets mentioned.) But in dreams it has a backwards dimension. On the boundary between the physical and the nonphysical dreams are a combination of two things: all the aspects that swirl and swell in that thin zone--due to life and its living and the nature of life (I'm my own words her, as I can't remember his words.)-- and the event from outside the dream that causes the dream to happen, such as a door slamming can cause the vastness of unformed elements to take the shape of a dream who's ending is also a loud noise...waking the dreamer. Both the unformed and the trigger are necessarily parts of the dream. But it is the END that causes the beginning, and not the beginning causing the end. I think you get it. So, dreams are dreamt in a sort of time that moves backwards.
Florevsky points out that to those who are in Christ this aspect of the end giving shape to the beginning and middle is also true. (Many will quickly think here of Pannenberg, particularly.) Somewhere I heard or read speak of life as being "front-loaded" like an old musket, where what goes in last gives all the rest its meaning.
My point is that we do, so habitually, and with such pressure to follow along, almost traditionally think ONLY in the forward-moving mode of time. But the MOST REAL even in Time, while it "has already happened" in the Resurrection of Christ, FOR US is YET to happen. But THAT future event works backwards to give our now and out past their MEANING.
I kind of likes the emphasis Bob Hill had on prayer too. Kind of gets to the core instead of the surface. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/29/2002 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Hilston: What would I need to do (or be able to do) in order to *truthfully* secure my son's trust that such an accident will never happen to him should he decide to ride in a car again? I would have to *close* the future. I would have to know exhaustively and control meticulously all things without exception.
Doc: Okay, I’ll bite. Yes, you would have to be God. Not only this, you would have to exercise your innate power to control every driver who could potential harm your son while driving, as well as all other variables that could negatively impact him (e.g. mechanical problems, etc.)
Hilston: So I must ask, precisely what are we trusting in God for, if He Himself cannot guarantee everything about the future.
Doc: Met a young lady several years back who was feeling very guilty she could not "trust God." She wondered if she was really one of "God’s elect" since, if she was truly one of God’s own, she would obviously be given grace to trust him. After getting to know her, I learned from her that she had been raped at the age of 9 while on the mission field by a fellow missionary. When I later asked her what she felt guilty about NOT trusting God for, she said "You know, his plan for my life, Jeremiah 29, to bless me, not to harm me, to protect me". "Protect," I asked, as in "protect from rape?" She hesitantly answered "yes, I suppose." I then responded, very bluntly, but out of love: "Well Suzy (fictitious name), no wonder you’re having trouble trusting God. You already know he can’t be counted on to guarantee that one. If 9 year old mission kids can get raped, so can 19 year olds." She initially responded like I’d uttered a blasphemy, yet she knew it was true. And, in a while, it helped her get over her senseless self-flogging for not being able to "trust God" for protection. She came to locate her trust where Paul locates it in Romans 8.
Rom. 8:35-39. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? … No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All these things CAN and DO happen to us, whether Christian or not. But the GOOD NEWS is that they CAN’T SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST.
Suzy was a Calvinist through all of this. Though she later came to embrace a more Arminian view, it is, I think, the only advice that could be given ANYONE, regardless of their theological persuasion. For we all live in the same warzone and serve the same God.
If Hilston disagrees with this, I wonder what guarantees HE is trusting God for?
Personally, I think a GREAT DEAL of harm comes back to bite people when they "cash in" their security in God in the wrong area. It provides an illusory comfort – but then blows up when the thing you thought you were protected against happens.
Hilston: Put another way, what would have to be true in order for the father to guarantee his son's safety and give his son absolute assurance that an accident will not befall him?
Doc: He would have to live in a different kind of universe.
Don’t know where Hilston is heading with this, but perhaps this helps.
Or not.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/30/2002 1:49 AM (GMT -6) | | This reminded me of the sermon Richard Coleman gave recently at WHC. He said (paraphrase) "To have faith we trust in the LOVE God has for us"
I thought about it for a long time. If we can't really fathom God...we can really fathom love. When we experience the LOVE God has for us over time it begins to BE the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for. Therefore we draw our faith off of this love which we experience.
I dont know if that makes any sense to anyone besides me
for what it's worth,
selah
I only wish I could write with both hands, so as not to forget one thing while I am saying another. (Saint Teresa of Avila)
Edited by - selah on 04/30/2002 06:51:49 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/30/2002 2:28 AM (GMT -6) | | General comment:
Sometimes the single trees can distract us from awareness of the might of the forest.
Thanks, Doc and Selah.
(Northern New Mexico Aspens, by Ansel Adams)
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/30/2002 07:30:20 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/30/2002 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg,
Thank you for your willingness to try to answer my questions. I'm not sure if the others were being deliberately evasive, or if the wording of my question was poor, but your candor is appreciated.
Hilston wrote: What would I need to do (or be able to do) in order to *truthfully* secure my son's trust that such an accident will never happen to him should he decide to ride in a car again? I would have to *close* the future. I would have to know exhaustively and control meticulously all things without exception.
Greg writes:quote:
Okay, I’ll bite. Yes, you would have to be God.
You've taken it too far, Greg. That isn't the kind of answer I was looking for. I'm looking for something like: "This father would have to be able to ________. He would have to know _________. He would have to be able to control ____________."
Greg writes:quote:
Not only this, you would have to exercise your innate power to control every driver who could potential harm your son while driving, as well as all other variables that could negatively impact him (e.g. mechanical problems, etc.)
Well, the "innate power" is a only a side issue at this point of my scenario (or at least an inference). I don't intend to contemplate the reason for the father's ability. I just want to know what he must necessarily be able to do and know.
Hilston wrote: So I must ask, precisely what are we trusting in God for, if He Himself cannot guarantee everything about the future.
Greg writes:quote:
... I then responded, very bluntly, but out of love: "Well Suzy (fictitious name), no wonder you’re having trouble trusting God. You already know he can’t be counted on to guarantee that one. If 9 year old mission kids can get raped, so can 19 year olds." She initially responded like I’d uttered a blasphemy, yet she knew it was true. And, in a while, it helped her get over her senseless self-flogging for not being able to "trust God" for protection.
I agree fully with the reply you gave her.
Greg writes:quote:
She came to locate her trust where Paul locates it in Romans 8.
Rom. 8:35-39. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? … No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I need you to unpack for me what this actually means. Does this also guarantee we ourselves will not stop loving God?
Greg writes:quote:
All these things CAN and DO happen to us, whether Christian or not. But the GOOD NEWS is that they CAN’T SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST.
On your view, can someone stop loving God? He/she may not be separated from God's love, per se, but they can fall away, right? Will he/she still go to heaven? If not, of what value is the fact of God's steadfastness if we ourselves can reject it?
Greg writes:quote:
If Hilston disagrees with this, I wonder what guarantees HE is trusting God for?
I trust Him to keep me from turning away from Him. I trust Him to work all things together for good and for the growth of my relationship with Him. I trust Him to work events and experiences into my life that cause me to make progress in my faith and understanding of His word. I trust Him to work in my will, to cause me to desire the things of God and the spirit more than the things of the world and the flesh. I trust Him to finish the good work He has begun, and save my "seat" for me (Eph 1:20 2:6).
Greg writes:quote:
Personally, I think a GREAT DEAL of harm comes back to bite people when they "cash in" their security in God in the wrong area. It provides an illusory comfort – but then blows up when the thing you thought you were protected against happens.
I agree completely.
Hilston wrote: Put another way, what would have to be true in order for the father to guarantee his son's safety and give his son absolute assurance that an accident will not befall him?
Greg writes:quote:
He would have to live in a different kind of universe.
Of course. That's the point. I'm asking you what kind of universe would that be. Describe its necessary characteristics and the father's necessary abilities and knowledge.
Thanks for trying. I hope I've clarified the intent of my questions with this.
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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chambes
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Total Posts : 41
| Posted 4/30/2002 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You've taken it too far, Greg. That isn't the kind of answer I was looking for. I'm looking for something like: "This father would have to be able to ________. He would have to know _________. He would have to be able to control ____________."
The father would have to know exactly what the other drivers were thinking and doing, exactly what the weather conditions were, exactly what the state of his car was, and be able to perfectly control his car. He would have to be able to control the other drivers actions, and the weather, and his car completely.
quote:
I trust Him to keep me from turning away from Him. I trust Him to work all things together for good and for the growth of my relationship with Him. I trust Him to work events and experiences into my life that cause me to make progress in my faith and understanding of His word. I trust Him to work in my will, to cause me to desire the things of God and the spirit more than the things of the world and the flesh. I trust Him to finish the good work He has begun, and save my "seat" for me (Eph 1:20 2:6).
What about Heb 6:4-8?
Heb 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
NIV
If God could be trusted to keep you from falling away, why did the author of Hebrews specifically warn against falling away?
chambes
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 4/30/2002 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Chambes,
Thank you for your contribution. See my replies and questions below:
Hilston had written: "... This father would have to be able to ________. He would have to know _________. He would have to be able to control ____________."
Chambes writes:quote:
The father would have to know exactly what the other drivers were thinking and doing, exactly what the weather conditions were, exactly what the state of his car was, and be able to perfectly control his car. He would have to be able to control the other drivers actions, and the weather, and his car completely.
All very well said. Would you then say that the father would have to have meticulous control over all mitigating factors?
Hilston wrote: I trust Him to keep me from turning away from Him. I trust Him to work all things together for good and for the growth of my relationship with Him. I trust Him to work events and experiences into my life that cause me to make progress in my faith and understanding of His word. I trust Him to work in my will, to cause me to desire the things of God and the spirit more than the things of the world and the flesh. I trust Him to finish the good work He has begun, and save my "seat" for me (Eph 1:20 2:6).
Chambes writes:quote:
What about Heb 6:4-8?
Heb 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. NIV
If God could be trusted to keep you from falling away, why did the author of Hebrews specifically warn against falling away?
Excellent point! It appears your question suffices to tell us alot about your worldview. Apparently, you do NOT trust God to keep you from falling away -- am I right? You must trust yourself to be saved. Is this correct? If not, please elaborate so I can better understand your position. In either case, may I ask, precisely what do you trust God for on your worldview?
Domo arigato,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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chambes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 4/30/2002 5:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Would you then say that the father would have to have meticulous control over all mitigating factors?
Yes. He would need to have complete control over the other drivers beceause if he didn't, a group of drivers could all choose to drive straight at him from all directions, leaving him powerless. He would need to have complete control over nature, because a storm could kill them.
quote:
It appears your question suffices to tell us alot about your worldview. Apparently, you do NOT trust God to keep you from falling away -- am I right? You must trust yourself to be saved. Is this correct? If not, please elaborate so I can better understand your position. In either case, may I ask, precisely what do you trust God for on your worldview?
This is all a very hairy issue, and I'm just thinking outloud, so take all this with a grain of salt.
Hebrews 6 seems to say that it is possible for one who genuinely is saved to fall away. So, I guess I don't trust God to keep me from falling away. I trust God that He has saved me and given me the opportunity to be redeemed, but I believe its up to me to accept that redemption, and I can fall away at any time. But I trust that if I fall away it is all my fault, because I trust that God did everything He could to keep me short of impinging on my free will.
I trust that God is faithful and keeps His end of all His promises, but I believe we as free agents can act against Him. I trust that when I draw near to God, He draws near to me. I trust that God can fill my life with peace, love and joy no matter my physical circumstances. I trust that God is always working for my good in this war we are living throug. I trust that I can never be seperated from the love of God. I trust that God has given me the grace that frees me from slavery to sin. I trust that in Christ I have the ability to enter the Most Holy Place and be in God's presence. I trust that if I seek God's face, He will direct my steps in a path that is better than any path I could have chosen on my own.
I guess to sum it up, I trust that even though there may be tragedies in my life, God is there with me comforting me, loving me and giving me joy and healing. And in the end, I trust that God truly has redeemed me, and I will spend eternity with Him. But, I believe it is within my power to reject all those things I'm trusting God for.
I hope this makes sense.
chambes
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to get what he cannot lose." ~Jim Elliot | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 4/30/2002 5:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Hilson,
Your second reply (to my clarification) seems to cover the same key points, so I will respond to it.
Winghead writes:quote:
Scripture calls us to trust God in all things, ...
Hilston: quote:
I agree. But I want your opinion on what that means:
(1) Does it mean you should trust Him to keep you from harm?
(2) Does it mean you should trust Him to provide food and clothing for you and your family?
(3) Does it mean you should trust Him to fulfill His promises?
With regards to (1), I agree with Greg, yourself, and others who suggest the nature of this world is such that we cannot expect that no harm will ever come to us.
With regards to (2) Yes. We are told that he will provide for our basic needs, though that needs to be put into perspective. This does not mean we will be provided with a $500,000 house and a six figure salary.
With regards to (3). Yes, absolutely.
Winghead writes:quote:
... and of course, to pray.
Hilston:quote:
Question: On the Open View, what does that have to do with trusting God?
In a way, nothing. However, we are told to ask, and we will receive. We are told to seek Him out for guidance in times of need. Prayer is a correct biblical response to times of need. (cf. 2 Cor 13:7-9) By praying, we are being obedient and walking in faith, which is an act of trust.
Winghead writes:quote:
In all cases, God remains trustworthy.
Hilston:quote:
I agree. I wonder if you might elaborate. On the Open View, what does this mean? He is worthy of your trust regarding ... what? Your safety? Your sustenance? Your job? Your provision?
The God of the Bible appears to want us to include Him in our lives. He is to be central -- no other gods, no idols, no competition with the things of this world. We are not to go to the "Egyptians" for help. Rather, we are to go to Him. And, the God of the Bible has proved himself trustworthy. He will either deliver you, or guide and comfort you in the midst of the trials, or welcome you home.
With regards to eternal security, I suspect there are various views represented on this discussion board. I am not sure there is one position within the OV. My position is that we have eternal security. I say this because of the many verses that suggest that God will complete what he started, that he sealed us, that no one will take us from Christ, that nothing can separate us from the love of God, etc. The responsibility to keep us appears to be God's, and God is able!
That said, any who believe in eternal security must deal with the verses -- and there are only a very few (e.g., those in Hebrews) -- that hint we might be able to walk/fall away from our salvation. Again, if salvation is by grace through faith, then I think it is highly problemmatic to suggest we can do something to walk away from it. In my thinking, this must mean that if people "loose their faith" and "walk/fall away from their salvation", that regardless of how "saved" they might appear on the outside, they must not have had a genuine, born again, saving faith in God. How can that be? Well perhaps because they were trusting in their fleshly security and/or religion, and had not had their faith tested? This, I believe, is why we are told to test our faith (2 Cor 13:5-6).
In any case, my current position is that once saved, we can trust God to keep us.
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 4/30/2002 8:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So I must ask, precisely what are we trusting in God for, if He Himself cannot guarantee everything about the future?
Resurrection.
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 5/1/2002 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Let me make this simple.
Things you can trust God for in the open view:
1. God loves us
2. God is "for us" in that he draws us towards Himself.
3. God empathizes with us.
4. God is always working for the "greater good" (MAD nuances to this!!!) in all things.
5. Because this "probationary period" is temporary, God will "win" (whatever that entails) It's a fixed fight ultimately.
You CANNOT trust God from keeping you from turning to or from Him, in this life. Corrolary of free will.
You CANNOT trust that every instance of evil is DEFINITELY for a "higher purpose"
You CANNOT trust that even God-given advice will lead to things working out as planned. (Ask Doc about the missionary marriage he talks about in God of the Possible)
Let me make it MORE simple...
If you want to know about the PROVIDENTIAL POWER of God, yes, it is very possible that God can REALLY, REALLY want to protect a given person from harm, but because of certain factors in Creation, God can be thwarted. God can fail.
The Bottom line: Providentially, God is the MOST INFLUENTIAL and MOST POWERFUL agent for activity in existence, but he can be thwarted on some significant things dealing with human suffering if Creation is so allayed against him. God has a good chance of doing what he needs to do, but he can fail. Moreover, we can never really know when either of the options may be the case. Mad ambiguity.
How's that?
Does anyone want to deny what I'm saying? If so, we can go back over all those posts (and the concessions therein) for about the last 6 months!
Busy as heck,
Edited by - Mephi2K on 05/01/2002 12:55:49 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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chambes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 5/1/2002 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for making it simple, Mephi. I'll go along with everything you wrote.
chambes
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to get what he cannot lose." ~Jim Elliot | | Back to Top | | |
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allryledup
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/1/2002 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God can be thwarted. God can fail.
If this is the God of Scripture...well, God help us. That is if He can.
quote:
but he can be thwarted on some significant things dealing with human suffering if Creation is so allayed against him.
Life must be very frightening for you, and if it isn't, no logic or faith you present to me would make me believe you know what you're saying.
(Sorry Tom, I thought I was done posting, but this one put me over the top )
Blessings,
R.J.
Edited by - allryledup on 05/01/2002 3:36:12 PM
Edited by - allryledup on 05/01/2002 3:36:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/1/2002 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
(Sorry Tom, I thought I was done posting, but this one put me over the top ) R.J.
That's alright RJ. Go for it! I really wanna jump into this discussion, but it'll have to wait until the weekend. We're finalizing corrections for the Arabic NT the next few days! Then we're done! The entire Bible in Arabic for Muslims.
Trusting God,
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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