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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/5/2003 6:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey, it's been awhile since I've posted, but I've been trying to keep up on what's been happening. Recently I ran across an explanation and a defense against the OV's theory that because the Bible speaks in conditional statements, of necesity it must produce free-will. Well, I think this argument is worth checking out and I'm greatly interested in seeing what you all have to say. Especially Boyd ;)
Now according to this particular theologian, man hath not freewill. When God speaks in conditional statments such as, "this day I have laid before you life and death, choose life that you may live" or many of the other verses used in backing the idea that God works under conditions to the will of man; God is not showing us that we actually have the power to do so, rather He is showing our inability. Accordingly there are two disticnt "voices" in the Bible, one of the Law and two of the Gospel. The words of the law, are the words that are commanding us what to do. They are God's commands as to how we should live our lives. For example, Peter in Acts 2 says that all should repent and be baptized. This is law from God. The Gospel of God is that which God reveals His grace to us. His workings and His doings for us. He draws men unto Himself, this would be a semi-example of God's gracious words.
Now when God commands us to trun and repent and be baptized, words of the law, God is not telling us that in some way we are able to do so. Instead God is showing us our inability to make such "choices". God is showing our depraved sense in that we, of our own power cannot choose God, cannot repent of our own power. This seems to be a fair, and yet not as detailed explanation of this theologians standpoint on this topic. more to come later, let me know what you think of it so far and any objections. Thanks much.
by GRACE alone,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/5/2003 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi borg-
Your friend can only even attempt to argue this in cases where a) the choice is predicated to humans and b) the choice involves salvation. But in the Bible a) "mights" are predicated not only to humans but to God (would your friend suggest that this means God is really not able to do either of the acts embraced by the condition?) and b) not all choices are embraced by the doctrine that we cannot save outselves. Sometimes we have a choice between two very mundane routes, neither of will involve "grace" or "salvation." Point is, even if your friend was right (and I don't think he is), he would only be right about ONE choice, i.e., salvation. It wouldn't apply to any of the other choices we make.
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borg
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| Posted 12/5/2003 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom, thanks for responding. I believe this certain theologian was referring to free-will in the free-will to salvation. I'm not denying that man cannot make choices. That would be a rather ignorant statement if i so claimed it to be true. But this theologian is arguing that in no way do we have the freewill to accept or reject God because we are so bound by sin. God is not bound by sin, hence God can make free choices, but even here, I'm not refering to God's abiblity to make choices that lead to His slavation; complete nonsense. The verses that are often pointed out by the OV's are verses that revolve around us being able to choose of our own will to accept or reject God; as i understand them.
Thanks again
By Grace Alone,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/6/2003 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | How can you be guilty of something over which you had no control? So the gospel means I can sin all I want so long as I believe the right things and I am still be saved? Oh goodie!
The Bible itself makes clear that the commands of God are NOT too hard, but that humans are in fact able to obey (Deut 30:14). This establishes beyond any doubt the complete blameworthiness of all who have sinned (and all have). It also boldly underscores the only means of justification for these who have been righteously condemned before God--justification by faith (which, by the way is the only way of justification in both the Old AND New Testaments).
Romans 1, 2, and 3 show clearly that moral depravity is entered into volutarily, and that all men are without excuse, because they have chosen to not "retain the knowledge of God in their understanding," and as a result God gave them up to deprave themselves.
As to salvation, of course it is true that one can only come to Christ by the Spirit's drawing (prevenient grace). But to say God gave his commands to make us realize we couldn't keep them represents God in the following passage as a LIAR:
Deut. 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Sin is not a valid choice, ever. Sure, people can choose to sin, but it is never with God's approval, and always has severe consequences.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/6/2003 7:42 PM (GMT -6) | | John, I fail to see why are you saying that according to my above postings it is permissable for us to sin. No Christian in the right sense of mind would ever say that. And your verses don't do much to defuse the argument raised against it.
Boyd, i'm intrigued by your response. I understand the previent grace part, and I guess I would really want to know what is your view of grace and why is it such a gracious and worthwhile gift? Does God deal more faith to some and less to others? If yes, then why woudl God not deal more faith to everyone to ensure salvation? If no, then why is it that some of the smartest men on earth, i.e. Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, etc. who, it cannot be objected were seeking truth, not find it? Were they that blind? That ignorant? Why doesn't God give us just enough grace to push us over the boundries of sinner to saint? Perhaps you would respond that He desires us to choose Him of our own free-will, but then how far does grace actually take us? and what is so amazing about this grace that can't save but needs the acceptance of man? Does this make sense? if not, let me know.
By Grace Alone,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/8/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
By the way John, your interpretation of Duet 30, where does that ever explain our easy ability to carry out the laws? And if it's so easy, then did Christ die as a fool?
grace,
borg
Hi borg,
First, it's not my interpretation of Deut 30, it's God's own word on the subject -- "this commandment is not too hard for you..." Check it out for yourself. I believe Deut. 30 is part of the inspired, infallible word of God. The interpretation you advance requires one to say God was lying to his people when he said his command was not too hard for them to do. The New Testament makes the very same claim "his commandments are not burdensome." (1 John 5).
Second, Christ died to save sinners. Sin is the transgression of the law. All have sinned (broken God's law) and therefore fall short of the glory of God. If one has sinned (even once--and all have) one can never be justified by keeping the law, one must have one's sins atoned for, and that is precisely what Christ's death accomplished for all. The atonement of Christ makes it possible for God to righteously forgive sinners. "That he might be just and the justifier of him that has faith in Jesus." (Rom. 3).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/8/2003 12:52 PM (GMT -6) | | "According to my grammer, these words signify neither the extent nor the degree of human power, but local distance... In the same way, 'far off', 'in heaven', 'across the sea', do not refer to any power in man, but to a place at a distance above us, to the right, to the left, behind us or over against us. Someone may laugh at me for arguing at this elementary level, setting before such great men a primer, as one would before schoolboys who did not know their ABC, and teaching them how to put syllables together; but what can I do, when I see them looking for darkness in such clear light, and aspiring to be blind? They list a vast sequence of ages, many wits, saints, martyrs and doctors; they flaunt this passage of Moses most overbearingly; yet they will not deign to look at the syllables, nor to rule their thoughts so far as to give a moment's consideration to the passage of which they boast!... Now come and tell us how it is possible for one ordinary person to see what all these public figures, the chief men of all these ages, did not see! Even a schoolboy would conclude that thsi apssage proves them to have been blind pretty often!
What then did Moses mean by these extremely plain and clear words, if not that he was excellently discharged his office as a faithful lawgiver, one who does everything necessary to ensure that men have the commandments set before them, and know them; and that therefore no place is left them for making excuse that the did not now the commandments, or did not possess them, or were obliged to seek them elsewhere; so that if they do not keep them, the fault is not in the law or the law-giver, but in themselves." Martin Luther
The law is near us, it's not above us, it's not that we aren't able to understand it, it's that it is plain, obvious, and right in front of our noses and we still reject it. We are not able to. But in our blinded ignorance God is saying, "Reach out, take ahold of these laws. All you have to do is love me, with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. Come on it's not that hard! You think you have the ability so do it. Reach out." While all along our hands, our eyes, and our minds are so decieved and blinded that we cannot reach out and yet we still strive to do so. Until God so chooses to remove the veil and show us our depraved state, and how in desperate need of a savior we are, we can never totally learn to appreciate God's great grace and the love by which the Son (Jesus) has bestowed upon us. The worse we look, the better He looks, the more we glory in His saving act of redemption. So by all means, take ahold of the law, take ahold of what God requires of us with your free-will. But I submit that you will be fumbling in the dark, unable in the slighest bit to acheive what is commanded. And all we can do is cry out for another's righteousness, a savior, a Lord, a Messiah. Until we learn what we need to be saved from, and it's not just a "bad" thing, we will never fully know how we have been saved.
Grace and Peace,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/8/2003 2:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
By the way John, your interpretation of Duet 30, where does that ever explain our easy ability to carry out the laws? And if it's so easy, then did Christ die as a fool?
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
How was Jesus tempted "in all things as we are?"
1. My temptations are real, I could possibly sin,
Jesus' temptaions were real, He could possibly have sinned
2. Jesus was able to resist sinning,
I have the power to resist sinning
Since He was tempted JUST LIKE ME, He can be my High Priest. He can sympathize with me.
Since I truly have the power to resist sin, I can be held responsible for my actions if I do choose to sin.
There, Jesus proved we all have the ability to resist sin.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 12/8/2003 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | borg,
It is my observation that Luther, Calvin, and others who hold to the bondage of the will have misunderstood Romans 7 and never allowed the whole tenor of truth to inform them as to the nature of Paul's witness in Romans 7.
First of all Romans 6 states clearly sin shall not have dominion over us. Romans 8 says the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 7 begins with Paul saying he spoke to those who knew the law. He wanted to speak to their specific condition under the law. He gives a quick deliverance summary to verse 6.
Then in verse 7 a summary of why he was about to give his testimony of what happened to him in the past. Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. The law was given not to put in bondage but to reveal the enemy. Paul goes on to give a detailed account of his subjective experience and of how the law helped him to see another law at work in his members. He was enlighteded, the light of Christ first reveals our condition, not to condemnation, but to set us free from the deception, that spirit that blinds the mind to the truth of the fact we have been given liberty by the creator, the bondage is a deception. The truth sets us free, because we had believed a lie we were in bondage to sin we couldn't see how to do what was right, the law revealed that experiencially to Paul so he could choose the truth as it is in Jesus and walk at liberty through faith in Christ. Jesus, the last Adam, showed man what man was created for and provided his own life for our past sins. This is all the initiated act of God, grace, so we might be set free from that awful delusion of bondage to sin and the bondage of the will. The fact is people still have the option believe the lie or the power of God unto salvation. Its all grace, its just, do you want to receive the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness and reign in life by one Jesus Christ or remain a slave to who you yeild your members to. Peace be with you. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/8/2003 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika would I punish a dog if he can't speak proper english to tell me what's wrong with him? what kind of analogy/ question is this? Absurd is what it is. humans are not some dumb beast, we weren't created like that. you are presupposing innocence and i'm presupposing guilt. would a doctor be condemned for knocking his patient out and killing the cancer that the patient refused to admit he had? NO. he would be viewed upon as a hero. is God therefore condemned for quickening our spirits so that we can see how far we've fallen from His perfect state? NO. is it "punishment" to do such a thing? NO. Does God have the right to punish the one who disobeys His command and pridefully and arrogantly proclaimed that they weren't breaking the laws? I fail to see how this analogy does anything.
Ron, thank you for your post. it was most interesting. Could you explain it a little bit. I fail to see how Romans 7 tells us that we are not bound by sin anymore. True those whom Christ accepts are no longer bound by sin, but those who are in an unregenerate state are still victim to the slavery of sin. This is Biblical. We were once slaves of sin, objects of wrath, antichrists, but we are no longer because Christ has paid our due in full. If Christ paid for all man's sins once and for all, then the sin of unbelief should as well be covered and everyone should be saved, but we do not get this from scripture. I also fail to see where the law was to show us who the enemy is. What verse is that? I didn't find it. And if it does reveal to us the enemy, who is this enemy? it's our own carnal self! But until we are redeemed we are at enmity with God and we cannot submit to God's law or even please God in any manner. Perhaps i have failed to understand your point, but I see no reasoning to your conclusion. But I'm interested to hear. Let me know what you think and what else you have.
G N P
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 12/9/2003 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | borg
quote:
Ron, thank you for your post. it was most interesting. Could you explain it a little bit. I fail to see how Romans 7 tells us that we are not bound by sin anymore.
That is why I prefaced my comments with Romans 6 and Romans 8. Romans 7 should not be interpreted in isolation. Romans 6 free from sin, sin shall no longer have dominion over you, Romans 8 The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets us free from the law of sin and death. I'm doing rapid fire at 500 yards so don't hold me to exact wording.
quote:
True those whom Christ accepts are no longer bound by sin, but those who are in an unregenerate state are still victim to the slavery of sin. This is Biblical. We were once slaves of sin, objects of wrath, antichrists, but we are no longer because Christ has paid our due in full. If Christ paid for all man's sins once and for all, then the sin of unbelief should as well be covered and everyone should be saved, but we do not get this from scripture
True, but its continuance over even lost man is because of Satan blinding the mind. The acts of sin, because we are responsible, needed propitiation.
quote:
I also fail to see where the law was to show us who the enemy is. What verse is that? I didn't find it. And if it does reveal to us the enemy, who is this enemy?
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me]. Edit.
Paul says he hadn't known sin except the law had said, ect. In the chapter he says by it deceived me. Pauls says I then see another law in my members warring ect.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Another scripture says your adversary the devil. The prince of the power of the air the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. Adam and Eve, the commandmant came and here comes the deceiver, the enemy, that old serpent, the devil. I'm sure you see the connection. I apologize I didn't make myself clear, I let the whole tenor of truth inform and my statements don't necessarily inform you of that.
quote:
it's our own carnal self!
Only partially true. Granted a personality is formed by decisions and actions, and needs to be denied, crucified, reckoned as dead with Christ. But the enemy is primarily Satan and his devils. I usually ask a person who takes a stand on still in bondage to sin, Romans 6:11. I ask them, are you reckoning yourself dead to sin and alive to God or are you reckoning yourself dead to God and alive to sin. Its a daily choice.
quote:
But until we are redeemed we are at enmity with God and we cannot submit to God's law or even please God in any manner.
We cannot because we see not. We have been blinded and act on the lie instead of the truth. But that doesn't mean we are not responsible for our acts. Turn to God by faith and in any generation he gives us revelation. The devil is the enemy, he deceives, and captures at his will those whos eyes have not been opened to the principalities and powers opposing God.
quote:
Perhaps i have failed to understand your point, but I see no reasoning to your conclusion. But I'm interested to hear. Let me know what you think and what else you have.
borg OV is not trying to present another way to God except through Jesus Christ. You don't deny we are accountable for sins. So OV and others see we are accountable because we have free will. We are not trying to preach free will saves us. No, Jesus is the savior. Jesus also said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. We love the truth as you. No one is preaching keep law as the way of salvation. Just because there is hight interest in free will, moral law, and open future doesn't mean those subjects are implimented in our lives apart from Jesus. Free will should, could, but may or may not abide in Christ and His word in us. Peace.
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 12/10/2003 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | borg
quote:
this is something that just triggered in my mind,
quote:
if you have any pressing questions direct me to them and i'll answer
What do you see? | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/15/2003 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry I haven't responded for awhile. I've been working my tail off for finals. I don't think i'll allow you to throw that one back at me until you've clarified your stance on it. I'm just curious how you view Christ, His mission, His work, His character, etc. It intrigues me. Thanks.
By Grace Alone,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/15/2003 7:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
I'm just curious how you view Christ, His mission, His work, His character, etc. It intrigues me. Thanks.
By Grace Alone,
borg
The Open View does not present any different views of Christ than the free will tradition in Xtianity in general has always taught concerning Christ.
The OV is in agreement with the Nicene creed's statements about Christology. Some OVTer's differ on whether or not Christ had the ability to sin. For my part, I go with what the Scripture says when it says that "He was tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15). The ability to be tempted means the possibility of succumbing to the temptation is real, or else the supposed temptations can only be farcical.
That said, we can all breathe a big sigh of relief because of the fact that Jesus Christ never did sin, and therefore was worthy to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tom
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| Posted 12/15/2003 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | borg: Sorry I haven't responded for awhile. I've been working my tail off for finals. I don't think i'll allow you to throw that one back at me until you've clarified your stance on it. I'm just curious how you view Christ, His mission, His work, His character, etc. It intrigues me. Thanks.
Tom: Christ: God-incarnate, 100% divine, 100% human. Mission: To save whosoever will by dying and rising from the grave for them. Work: Lots of stuff! He created the world, saves whosoever will, runs the universe, battles evil, sanctifies believers, empowers them to battle evil too, intercedes for us, and is coming again to party with us forever. Character: Pure, perfect, holy, faithful, true, loving, and omni-benevolent with sugar on top.
John’s right. The OV adds nothing unique to the Christological debates surrounding Christ’s person and work. No ammunition here for ya borg. 
borg: By Grace Alone
Tom: Me too.
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Tom
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| Posted 12/16/2003 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: TGB can you give me verses of Jesus saying that His will is to save all who are willing?
Tom: Does it have to be Jesus? Would a biblical author do? How 'bout John 3.16?
borg: Or better yet, how would you respond to John 6 or 15? Especially 6.
Tom: Specify the verses for me, borg. I think I know, but I don't wanna check out the wrong passage.
Blessigns,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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