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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 7:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/10/2003 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | | This is a typical objection raised by anti-openness folks, but the logic simply does not follow. Making a broad assumption about the nature of ALL events, based on a FEW instances in Scripture is just plain silly. A conclusion should never be drawn based on anything less than a clear preponderance of the evidence.
Their argument goes like this:
1. Jesus predicted Peter's denial.
2. Therefore, Jesus had to have exhaustive definite foreknowledge to be able to make such a prediction (logical fallacy).
To illustrate this fallacy, one need only think of how easily they can predict the behavior of someone they have had very close friendship with for an extended period of time. The fact that Christ "knew what was in the heart of men" only underscores the ease with which he was able to predict Peter's denial.
To the issue of rain, we all admit that God did in fact send the Great Flood. However, to argue based on this fact that ALL floods are sent from God is to quite literally jump to a conclusion without weighing all the evidence.
Also, to cite Scriptures which state that God sends the seasonal rains to bless mankind does not in and of itself require us to believe that He is up in heaven consciously willing each and every drop to condense in the clouds. When we have scientifically verifiable knowledge of the laws of physics that govern the workings of weather, it does not seem reasonable to conclude that God is actively directly causing each and every raindrop that falls. Doesn't it bring equal if not MORE glory to the Creator to think of how wonderfully he DESIGNED the weather to work?
I should hasten to add that an OVTer can unhesitatingly affirm that God sometimes directly intervenes in the physical world (this is the very definition of a miracle). I don't know of any Open Theist who denies the possibility of miracles (divine intervention in or suspension of natural laws).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/10/2003 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Chiam
If God is in control of ALL weather as you claim, then tell me what you think of this incident:
Mar 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mar 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
Mar 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
If God is in control of all the weather and Jesus REBUKED HIS FATHER'S STORM, wouldn't this be Jesus opposing the work of God? If we accept your premise then we would have to say that Jesus often opposed God's work. That would certainly contradict so many passages of Scripture like the one that says, ...The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)
What say ye to this?
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 9:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Since in Christ all things hold together (Col. 1:17), he being the master of the winds and waves uses this opportunity to deepen the faith of his disciple. They exclaim, "what kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!"
I think I will trust that God is in control of the weather in light of the many, many verses that show just that. Yet, I will allow for the possiblity that God could allow Satan to sift me and I will still have to agree with Job that, "the LORD gives and the LORD takes away..... blessed be the name of the LORD."
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/10/2003 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/10/2003 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | I think this weather thing is quite key actually.
Personally, if it's a sunny day I thank the Lord. And if it's a rainy and miserable day I'll thank the lord that I'm wearing a nice warm coat/am inside etc. We are meant to thank God in everything (not for everything). This is because he's the SOURCE of everything good. Anything good ultimately has it's source in God. If God wasn't there, no good thing would exist.
Obviously there are different levels of causation going on here. It's like with a TV screen - the tube making the dots has a different sort of cause that the motivation of the actors on the screen.
So with weather, God controls it in that he created the universe, he set up the laws that make weather happen, he sustains the universe by his word, and probably divinely intervenes when given legal rights by his kids. However, he doesn't stop the chain of causation of other free-will agents. The powerstations still polute the atmosphere, CFCs still make holes in the ozone layer and so on. I reckon demonic forces have impact on the weather too.
But I can still go WOW at the beautiful cloud patterns that God made. If I make a cake, I made it. However, to be honest, it was probably the egg and flour reacting together under temperature that did it, so I can't really claim much responsibility...
anyway
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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Polycarp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 12/11/2003 5:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
quote:
Originally posted by chiam
Since in Christ all things hold together (Col. 1:17), he being the master of the winds and waves uses this opportunity to deepen the faith of his disciple. They exclaim, "what kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!"
So basically what you are saying is that God caused a good storm so that Jesus could awake from a restful sleep and rebuke His Father's storm so that the disciples can make the above exclamation about Jesus. Basically what you are saying is that the Father and Son plays games with each other in order to demonstrate the power of both. Correct if I am wrong here.
The "Warfare Worldview" is seems to make more sense over the "Blueprint Worldview" every time I have a discussion with one of meticulous sovereignty advocates. This "God controls everything" doctrine seems to constantly portray a deity who plays these little games with His creatures for no other particular reason than to show how big and bad he is.
As A. C. Gaebelin once said about Arthur Pink's book on the subject, this view of God's sovereignty is the type of teaching that creates ATHEISTS.
I'm curious. Do you also view God as playing a game with his creatures when God saves us from his own wrath? Romans 5:9--Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! | | Back to Top | | |
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Polycarp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 12/11/2003 5:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by Polycarp
I'm curious. Do you also view God as playing a game with his creatures when God saves us from his own wrath? Romans 5:9--Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
You don't even read the verse you posted correctly. You say God is saving us from God's wrath.
The verse is saying that Jesus is saving us from God's wrath.
That's who the "him" in the verse is, Jesus. God's plan to save us from God's wrath, Jesus.
Now go read that verse again.
Actually, the text uses the passive voice--"we shall be saved from God's wrath." The implied actor is God saving us through Jesus Christ.
Of course, my question still stands. Do you also view God as playing a game with his creatures when God saves us from his own wrath? Romans 5:9--Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! | | Back to Top | | |
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Polycarp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 12/11/2003 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
quote:
Originally posted by Polycarp
I'm curious. Do you also view God as playing a game with his creatures when God saves us from his own wrath? Romans 5:9--Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
I honestly don't get your question (insert "apples and oranges comparison" analogy here ____________)
Now let me get this straight:God sends a storm that has to wake His Son from a restful sleep for no apparent reason other than for Christ to prove His authority. This is the belief of Chiam (and also YOU apparently). Yet you want to compare this to God saving us from the wrath to come.
The first one is utterly RIDICULOUS and makes no sense whatsoever. How does my comparing the first to a game have anything to do with the redemptive work of the Lord?
I'm not even sure why you bring this up. Jesus dying for us to save us from sin is a totally different animal than saying that God sends storms for Jesus to rebuke for some "power play" demonstrations. I am so flabberghasted at your logic that I will have to end this post here before I say what is REALLY on my mind.
Perhaps I'm dense. But the comparison with your framed scenario seems transparently obvious to me. My point is that if you are going to set up such a scenario, then it seems transparently obvious that the same thing could be said about God rescuing us from God's own wrath.
Because of human sinfulness God cursed all humanity with wrath. To rescue us from his own wrath God sent his Son to earth and inflicted his wrath upon his Son. Was this a game that God the Father and the Son have played? If you think it is not a valid comparison to your query, ignore it and go on.
(BTW, I do not believe what you imputed to me. Thank you! I prefer expressing my own beliefs. That's because I actually know what I believe and how I should express what I do believe.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Polycarp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 12/11/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Polycarp
Jesus saves us from God's wrath. I caught your illiteracy and you won't admit it. 
Nothing to admit! | | Back to Top | | |
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Polycarp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 12/11/2003 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by Polycarp
Actually, the text uses the passive voice--"we shall be saved from God's wrath." The implied actor is God saving us through Jesus Christ.
You still don't have it right. Here's the verse:
Romans 5:9--Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Now we'll replace the pronouns with the person's name:
Romans 5:9--Since we have now been justified by Jesus' blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Jesus!
Either you're ignorant of English grammar rules, or you're intellectually dishonest.
quote:
Originally posted by Polycarp
Perhaps, I'm dense.
Oh, so it's the former.
I give up! Since you have limited the options to two, I guess that I would prefer to be ignorant and stupid than dishonest, if those are the only two options you perceive to be available. There is one other option, and that is that you do not understand Greek grammar or English grammar. Oh, I forgot. You couldn't possibly be wrong. Have fun!      | | Back to Top | | |
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