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Sir_Edward
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Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 66
 
   Posted 11/3/2005 8:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Genesis 6:5-6 -- NIV - 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

I am fairly new to this site and open theism as part of my beliefs. All of you seem much father in the development of you beliefs than I so this post is done as an effort to catch up. Please bear with me.

The above scripture goes along with some of the discussion on God emotion and suffering.

If the various views are considered:
The determinist view of this passage would be that God predestined the world to evil and then was sorry that he did it -- God's pain is illegitimate because he determined things to happen so he cannot be expereinceing any legitimate emotion becasue he planned and forced it to happen.

Simple forknowledge to me is no better as it has a God who knows this is going to happen and sees no other outcome, but is sorry he made man in the first place. Why would be sorry you did something if you knew what end it would have in the first place? Seems like you would have planned for what end it (either changing the way of the thing's creation or created something else ot deal with it) would have and not be sorry at all. Emotion is just a facade at this point.

Open theism seems to have a better answer as God is legitimately suffering. He saw that there were other real courses humanity could have taken but they did not take them. He knew it was a possibility that they would reach thinking of evil all the time, but He had hoped it would be better and not come to it. His emotion is truly genuine about this and his course of action is to find anyone serving him and save them while destroying the rest. Seeing all future contingencies -- it ain't going ot get better God determines and destruction is all that is left or a forever waiting game in which nothing will get better.

Now, am I on the right track here or are their some holes in this interpretation? Be gentile as I am new to this and completely harmless (The knight says as he hides his sword behind his back smilewinkgrin )

Blessings


Sir_Edward -- Knight of the Theological Roundtable - 2 Timothy 4:1-5

Post Edited (Sir_Edward) : 11/3/2005 7:16:23 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 11/3/2005 8:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Sir Edward-

Good to hear from you. Hope you enjoy things. Watch out for "Mephi" (ha ha!). He's EXTREEEEEMLY consistent. ;o)

Well, of the three options you described, the best in my view is the third (of course!), the open view take on the passage. You describe it pretty well.

There's a big showdown debate going on right now here between those open theists who believe God really does "feel" joy, grief, anger, whatever and him (Mephi, an open theist too) who feels that since God possesses aseity (since God is self-existent and self-sufficient) it has to be the case that God, as God, is unsurpassably satisfied in terms of loving relationality and that this core, this essence of God, cannot be disturbed or accessed by us. It's what GOD IS. It's God's 'Godness'. And we can't influence that. So Mephi would say, OK, yeah, God feels our pain and grieves but only in the sense that this is an EXPRESSION of God's unsurpassably satisfied loving relationality IN THAT SITUATION. In God, where God does God, there's no emotional drag of disburbance whatsoever.

It gets kinda complicated and "out there," but don't think we're left with much of a choice biblically speaking that to affirm chancing emotional states in God, of joy, grief, etc. But I do think Mephi is on to something and we ought to view God's 'self-sufficiency' as in some sense inaccessible to the world.

Peace,
Tom


 

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Sir_Edward
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Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 66
 
   Posted 11/3/2005 9:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom,

Yeah. I kind of got the idea of what was going on. Don't worry my friend if I can handle some of the Calvinists on the other forum we have had anything else will seem very harmless I am sure. yeah

If I am in trouble drowning then I am sure you or John will throw me a life preserver or something. Pull hard because I keep my armor on.

Blessings.


Sir_Edward -- Knight of the Theological Roundtable - 2 Timothy 4:1-5

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Lee Merrill
booted




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
 
   Posted 11/6/2005 1:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Welcome, Sir Edward...

Sir Edward said...
The determinist view of this passage would be that God predestined the world to evil and then was sorry that he did it.

I would say God was grieved at this, though he knew it would happen, and it was in his plan from the beginning, as was the cross, which was also a source of grief to the "man of sorrows."

And the cross was not unforeseen by God:

Revelation 13:8 ... the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

So how can we see that the cross was foreseen, and yet a cause of grief, and then say that Genesis 6 and other similar passages cannot mean this, too?

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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cbost6421
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
 
   Posted 2/1/2006 11:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee Merrill said...
Welcome, Sir Edward...

Sir Edward said...
The determinist view of this passage would be that God predestined the world to evil and then was sorry that he did it.

I would say God was grieved at this, though he knew it would happen, and it was in his plan from the beginning, as was the cross, which was also a source of grief to the "man of sorrows."

And the cross was not unforeseen by God:

Revelation 13:8 ... the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

So how can we see that the cross was foreseen, and yet a cause of grief, and then say that Genesis 6 and other similar passages cannot mean this, too?

Blessings,
Lee
 
 
Lee,

A very good point towards the Biblicalness (is that a word?) of determinism. Hard to think of a counter point for me so Let me spit this out and Maybe we can refine it later.

three things to remember.
This nor any other One verse in the Bible Proves that ALL things are forseen. But I do realize that is not your point here either so I will move on
Secondly, The Open View does not neglect the idea of things being foreknown. In the Open View  there are two sense of things being foreknown, one set of actuallities... Things that cannot be altered because God or other agents has determined them and Thus God knows them as facts ahead of time. Then there is the things which are Undetermined and are abled to be influenced by GOd and other agents and incoporated into the plan. These thigns are Foreknown by God in the realm of Possibilities. God is no fool or Idiot, Those things which are not determined He can certainly plan for their possibility and foreknow those contigents.
This applies to this verse surpisingly well. As Open Theists We believe that God created the World planning that we would not sin and that we would follow Him in a real and Genuine Loving Relationship. Yet HE also knew for the relationship to be real and genuine (not a determined robotic programmed realtionship)that the risk of the human not wanting the relationship had to be real, thus including a reality of Possibilities. 

But Praise God He did not make this Choice out of the relationship a one time deal, HE had a plan "Foreseen from the creation of the world." When the risk He took ended up the way it has... God implented the plan He had. He sent Jesus to Die for our sins, And not only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) Thus HE foresaw Jesus's death as a Possibilty (though one may argue against this possibility argument simply by saying that the word here is "was" which means that it seems definite, as I said this is a difficult point and I am slowly working it out)
This is further supported by my final point. As you said That the "cross" was foreseen. However this is not what the verse says. This verse States that the Lamb and what happened to him was forseen, Not necessarily How it happened (i.e. the cross). It just says that the Lamb was slain was forseen, Not the Cross. Nor is there any mentions of the cross in the following or preceding verses. you cannot not use these verses to say that The Cross was forseen, only The Lamb that was slain.
 
God BLess,
Chuck


stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
-Evagrios The Solidary

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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
 
   Posted 2/4/2006 3:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Chuck,

cbost6421 said...
... you cannot not use these verses to say that The Cross was forseen, only The Lamb that was slain.

I could still make the point, however, that an event that would be the cause of grief was foreseen, the Lamb being slain, and yet this was in God's plan...

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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