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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/9/2003 6:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | For you who are Open Theist: Do you thank God for rain?
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/9/2003 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | If you hold to OV do you believe that God sends all rain? Is He in control of the weather?
Chiam
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/9/2003 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I think Chiam simply doesn't have an argument that will refute open theism so he throws up such questions, hoping something will stick...
for those who must believe that God controls everything, open theism isn't simply another belief...it is a death sound to their basic way of thinking. The line of thinking goes, if God doesn't control everything, how can you thank him for anything... | | Back to Top | | |
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Polycarp
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Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 12/9/2003 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Is Chiam's question misguided? Given Greg Boyd's "warfare world view," does God send the rain? At what point does God control the rain or not control the rain, given the WWV? If God sends a lot of rain, then the ground floods. Floods drown people, destroy property, impose great hardship. Does God do this?
I think Chiam's question is a necessary question for anyone who embraces the WWV.
John Sanders has argued in presentations that I have attended that God does not control the natural forces, for they are under Satanic and demonic dominion. Thus, he has argued that God does not know in advance whether an earthquake will occur here or a tornado will occur there. I realize that John Sanders does not represent all open theists. I also realize that Greg Boyd does not represent all open theists, but if his WWV is going to have any consistency and coherence to it, surely Chiam's question about the rain is quite cogent. Isn't it?
Perhaps it's not a question many open theists have thought about, but it seems to be an important question. I am interested to know how you folks would address the issue of raindrops, the accumulation of raindrops, and the mass accumulation of raindrops that devastate life and property when too many raindrops form a flood. Does God control the rain? | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/9/2003 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you Polycarp, you hit the nail on the head! That is exactly where I was headed.
Dear honorman, you said "I think Chiam simply doesn't have an argument that will refute open theism so he throws up such questions, hoping something will stick..." Since you do not have complete foreknowledge I will let you know that I am not throwing up questions hoping that one will stick. Actually, I really want to know the thinking of Open Theist.
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/9/2003 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | I think a clear distinction should always be made between the moral and the physical universe.
I once heard of a young lady who gave God glory for "turning the traffic light green for me." It seems clear to me that the reason the light turns green is because of the laws of physics, not the direct hand of God.
Same thing with rain. God created the physical universe to operate on the laws of physics, and rain is a common occurrence in that system. Even so, an OVTer can definitely praise God for the rain as a secondary effect of his creating of a physical world with occasional rain as a component. Also, as with the case of Elijah, God can certainly "shut up the heavens so that there is no rain," as well as cause torrents to come down (the Great Flood) at his discretion. But I don't think even Noah thanked God for the Great Deluge. I rather think that awe and fear would be a more appropriate response to something such as that. That said, in the Open View one need not see all natural catastrophes as directly caused by God or even allowed by God.
As to catastrophes, some theodicies present these as a necessary corollary to the inherent randomness and nature of the fallen physical world. My guess is they probably didn't have to worry about tornadoes, hurricanes, and earthquakes in Eden.
The Open View is specifically about the ontological status of the future; that is, the OV states that the future is not yet 100% determined, but in fact the future includes some possibilities that people can influence the outcome of.
But yes, Open Theists definitely can and should thank God for rain. Without it, everything would be very dry.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/9/2003 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm an open theist. I thank God for the rain that makes the crops grow and provides us with goodies to eat and that cools me down on hot afternoons when I visit my parents in Southern Florida.
I'm an open theist. I don't thank God for torrential rains and hurricanes that destroy crops, homes, and bury people under meters of mud.
I don't see a problem here. But if someone can manage to find one, I suggest that it will pale in comparison to the problem embraced by those who thank God for specifically and unconditionally determining the torrential rains and hurricanes that destroy crops, homes, and bury people under meters of mud...for God's glory. And I'd further suggest that those who see no problem in God's unconditionally determining people for becoming toast in hell can have nothing to say by way of criticism against those who believe SOME weather patterns are destructive in ways God does not intend.
Does God know when a specific earth-quake will occur? Absolutely. Does he know this matter eternally? No. He knows it when it becomes certain. When the physical laws that govern earth-quakes make it inevitable that an earth-quake will occur, God knows it. It that's 10 minutes before the earth-quake occurs, fine. If it's 100 years before it occurs, then that's when God knows it.
It's important to remember that on a compatibilist scheme, God knows that earthquakes will occur eternally becasue God unconditionally determines that they occur when and where they occur.
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Let us therefore move on from thanking God for the nice steady rain that we receive for our crops and lawns. I did not at all mean that we must say thank you God for the flood that is now happening, but I do believe that He is the one who sends all rain and not just the rain that we deem as “good.”
We all know about the physical laws of the universe and it is God who upholds and sustains everyone of them so the biblical writers have no problem at all saying that God sent the flood, the lightning and the wind.
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/10/2003 4:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Chiam: Let us therefore move on from thanking God for the nice steady rain that we receive for our crops and lawns. I did not at all mean that we must say thank you God for the flood that is now happening, but I do believe that He is the one who sends all rain and not just the rain that we deem as “good.”
Tom: If you believe God is equally responsible for sending destructive weather and constructive weather, and if you believe all God does is good and praiseworthy, then why would you only thank God for the constructive weather and not the destructive? Why would you not praise God for everything an all-determining praiseworthy God does?
Chiam: We all know about the physical laws of the universe and it is God who upholds and sustains everyone of them so the biblical writers have no problem at all saying that God sent the flood, the lightning and the wind.
Tom: Can you fill out this a bit more? I think I know what you're point is, but can you unpack it more?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 4:53 AM (GMT -6) | | God is in control of all weather. The “plain reading of the text” would lead us to this conclusion.
Gen 7:4 "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."
Lev 26:4 then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
Deut 11:13 "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,
Deut 11:14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.
Deut 11:15 "He will give grass in your fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.
Deut 11:16 "Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them.
Deut 11:17 "Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.
1 Sam 12:18 So Samuel called to the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.
Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
Jer 10:11 Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
Jer 10:12 {It is} He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.
Jer 10:13 When He utters His voice, {there is} a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.
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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok, you have 100 verses that clearly show that God is in control of all weather and you a text in Job where God gives permission to Satan to carry out a certain task. Yet, Job says (1:21)"the LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Do you believe that God has the freedom to bring about destruction with weather if He so chooses?
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Chiam: God is in control of all weather. The “plain reading of the text” would lead us to this conclusion.
Tom: OK, let’s see.
Chiam: Gen 7:4 "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."
Tom: This doesn’t say God alone determines all the weather. All it says is what it says: God sent the rains of the flood in judgment of the earth. Does God send all floods that drown everybody? Does Gen. 7.4 have to entail this? Not at all.
Chiam:Lev 26:4 then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
Tom: Again, all this says is that God is responsible for establishing the seasons and their roles in the production of harvest time. Can this not be true without God being thought to unconditionally decree from eternity every destructive weather event?
Chiam:Deut 11:13 "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul, 14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil. 15 "He will give grass in your fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied. 16 "Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them. 17 "Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.
Tom: Two things. One, in my view this is evidence against your claim that God eternally determines the weather. Good weather and crops will follows national obedience. Bad weather and poor crops is the cost of rebellion. But the people determine whether or not they obey or rebel which means they partly determine whether the weather is good or bad! Secondly, believing the God is able to reward obedience and judge rebellion with the weather doesn’t entail the belief that SOME of the world’s weather doesn’t sometimes unfold in ways he doesn’t desire.
Chiam: 1 Sam 12:18 So Samuel called to the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.
Tom: So God sent thunder and rain that day. Wonderful. And this means God is as directly responsible for all the destructive rain that ever occurs? Why the all or nothing, either/or thinking Chiam? We certainly don’t compartmentalize our lives and our involvement in what happens in our lives in such either/or ways.
Chiam: Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. 11 Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens." 12 {It is} He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens. 13 When He utters His voice, {there is} a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.
Tom: Amen. Where’s the problem? | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | God will not destroy the whole earth by flood. But do you believe that God is in control of the weather?
How do you respond to the Scriptures that have been used?
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/10/2003 5:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiam
God is in control of all weather. The “plain reading of the text” would lead us to this conclusion.
Gen 7:4 "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."
The flood, no universal qualifier there.
quote:
Lev 26:4 then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
God's promise to Israel, concerning their growing seasons. No universal qualifier there.
quote:
Deut 11:14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.
Deut 11:17 "Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.
Rain [conditional] to Israel. No universal qualifier there.
quote:
1 Sam 12:18 So Samuel called to the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.
Rain for Samuel. No universal qualifier there.
quote:
Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
Poetical. No universal qualifiers there.
quote:
Jer 10:13 When He utters His voice, {there is} a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.
Poetical unless chiam can show me where these storehouses are located.
chiam, 100 - 6 = 94. You're 94 passages short of 100 AND I see no universal qualifiers.
Therefore, God causes some of the weather.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika, you said
quote:
Gen 7:4 "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."
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The flood, no universal qualifier there.
Could you please explain what you mean when you say that there is no universal qualifier there......?
Look at the context:
Gen 7:4 "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."
And the following verses....
Gen 7:17 ¶ Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth.
Gen 7:18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water.
Gen 7:19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.
Gen 7:20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
Gen 7:22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
Gen 7:23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.
Gen 7:24 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 6:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Laike, you said regarding Jeremiah 10:
quote:
Poetical. No universal qualifiers there.
Jer 10:13 When He utters His voice, {there is} a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.
Poetical unless chiam can show me where these storehouses are located.
Please, did you even read Jeremiah 10:1-16?
Clearly Jeremiah 10 is devoted to showing how ridiculous idolatry is by contrasting dead material idols with the true and living God.
Jer 10:1 Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
Jer 10:2 Thus says the LORD, "Do not learn the way of the nations, And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens Although the nations are terrified by them;
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the peoples are delusion; Because it is wood cut from the forest, The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
Jer 10:4 "They decorate {it} with silver and with gold; They fasten it with nails and with hammers So that it will not totter.
Jer 10:5 "Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they, And they cannot speak; They must be carried, Because they cannot walk! Do not fear them, For they can do no harm, Nor can they do any good."
***Jer 10:6 There is none like You, O LORD; You are great, and great is Your name in might.
Jer 10:7 Who would not fear You, O King of the nations? Indeed it is Your due! For among all the wise men of the nations And in all their kingdoms, There is none like You.
Jer 10:8 But they are altogether stupid and foolish {In their} discipline of delusion--their idol is wood!
Jer 10:9 Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of a craftsman and of the hands of a goldsmith; Violet and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skilled men.
***Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
Jer 10:11 Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
Jer 10:12 {It is} He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.
Jer 10:13 When He utters His voice, {there is} a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.
Jer 10:14 Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge; Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; For his molten images are deceitful, And there is no breath in them.
Jer 10:15 They are worthless, a work of mockery; In the time of their punishment they will perish.
Jer 10:16 The portion of Jacob is not like these; For the Maker of all is He, And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance; The LORD of hosts is His name.
It is the true and living God that creates the heavens and the earth and who causes the clouds to ascend and he makes lightning for the rain etc….
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chiam
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/10/2003 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Laike, can you acknowledge that God destroyed many people with water just as Genesis 6 and 7 say? Yes or No
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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