 |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/15/2006 12:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Hi Ed-
The whole question of the history of open theism is still waiting to be explored and answered. There are bits and pieces, but no exhaustive study.
You have Calcidius, a 4th/5th century Christian philosopher who clearly was an open theist (Calcidius on Fate: His Doctrine and Sources, J. Den Boeft, Brill Academic Publishers, 1997). He was well-respected and so far as we know was never accused of heresy for his views. Greg is reading more carefully through Calcidius (and other neo-platonists, and Cicero). He was saying the other day how unusual it would be if Calcidius were the only person of his day or previous to his day to hold such views. When you read Calcidius he’s very casual about his views and doesn’t give any indication of an ongoing debate or of the possibility that anyone would think they posed a problem for Christian faith.
As for others who held to an open view but who were thought to be heretics, what’s the point? Guilt by association? I mean really, what then should we conclude about Calvinists because they have in common with Muslims the belief that God unconditionally determines everything that happens in the world? Are Calvinists as religiously lost and in error as Muslims? Look, we’re ALL (as Christians) going to have SOMETHING in common with Christian heretics. They were CHRISTIAN heretics after all, something they couldn’t be unless we had a good deal about which we agreed on and other things we disagreed over! So Socinius was an open viewer. Big friggin deal. And Muslims are theological determinists. So friggin what.
So far as I know, nobody in ancient church history was ever condemned as a heretic simply because they held to the open view. In fact, there is not a single word in any of the ecumenical councils about the manner in which Christians were expected to believe God was omniscient or the nature of foreknowledge. On the contrary, you have at last one example of an open theist who was not condemned, Calcidius. Then you have to come all the way up to the 18th century to discuss others. If you see the online version of my paper (http://www.opentheism.info/pdf/belt/summary_aog.pdf), footnote no. 38, there's a bit about Billy Hibbard, Adam Clarke, and Lorenzo McCabe. There is an awesome article on McCabe here: http://www.opentheism.info/pages/information/porter/things_only.php. There was no tribunal and no charge of 'heresy' in the cases of Hibbard, McCabe, and Clarke. I think too many evangelicals have just grown Pharisaical and are control-mongers. They get life and fulfillment out of being increasingly in a position to tell people "this is wrong," "that's right," "you're OK," "you're not OK."
But of all the things that we use to measure the likelihood of a belief’s being true, tradition/history is the last (in my mind) in importance. Think of Wesley’s Quadrilateral: Reason, Scripture, Experience, & Tradition (I’m not assuming a particular priority by listing them this way; just getting ‘em out there). If we have three of the four that strongly support the truth of our claim and SOME support from Tradition, then I think we’re in a very good position! Sure, we should never dismiss church tradition lightly, but everybody in this debate admits that tradition (church councils and decrees) can be wrong. So the argument against the open view from history/tradition is the weakest possible objection there is. I'm not sure there's any real 'bite' to it at all.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 3/15/2006 12:57:07 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 3/16/2006 7:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | Today I just started listening to a serious of lectures by Bruce Ware on Systematic Theology. He couldn't get through the first lecture, the introduction, mind you, without slamming Open Theists: how can they (Open Theists) not see that they can't possibly be right because that would mean traditional church doctrine on the omniscience of God from ages past would be wrong; the church fathers would be wrong, and that simpy cannot be. This was the thrust of his (quick) argument.
All along, however, there have always been two people on this planet who do not share the same Christian concepts about God, in many areas. That Open Theists have come on the scene namely in the last few years is nothing more than Luther and Calvin and Arminius coming on the scen in the 15th & 16th centuries. If the earth sticks around for another five hundred years, Open Theists will be in that same category (time wise) as Luther and Calivin are now. In other words, once enough time goes by, the "but, the church fathers" argument becomes moot. (I guess ol' Galileo still can't be right, because it was how many thousands of years later that he discovered things don't rotate around each other quite the way they thought they did?!)
Church history theology is relative in time, not absolute in truth. Starkman My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/19/2006 12:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
Yo, Stark. Yeah, I see your point. And Ed asks a good question. Deciding how much weight to give to tradition is a balancing act. An art as much as a science (if it's a science at all!).
It simply can't be that tradition is infallible (if Protestants are right on Scriptural authority and even close on the unique character of Scripture as inspired). For starters, we Protestants (Ware included) reject elevating tradition to such a level of authority (though Ware essentially does this). We only recognize Scripture as bearing that kind of authority. If this is the case, then in principle we have to concede that the Church can be wrong. And since the Church has believed a great many things, a lot of those in the Church have been wrong a lot, a lot of the time.
Ware's point seems to be this: some of the Church can be wrong some or all of the time, but ALL of the Church can't be wrong ALL of the time. God just wouldn't permit it. The correct view HAS to exist in some ongoing tradition of the Church. Moreover, whatever the Church has unanimously affirmed as true HAS to be true. But this assumes God has inspired church leadership and councils throughout Church history in the formation of doctrine to an extent that’s very difficult to defend. Look at what this amounts to. God is able to and has determined universal affirmation of correct doctrine in SOME instances (like omniscience) but not in others. There is longstanding difference of opinion over so many doctrinal issues it’s not funny. There was never universal agreement over the nature of justification, salvation, views of the atonement, the nature of grace, the identity and validity of the gifts of the Spirit, nature and extent of divine providence, human freedom, eschatology, ecclesiology, inspiration of Scripture, understandings of sin, nature of the Fall, biblical history, gender issues, church discipline, evangelism, the fate of the unevangelized, the nature of hell, divorce & remarriage, the nature of church authority, the ordination of clergy, the priesthood of all believers, the role of prayer, physical healing, veneration of the saints, status of Mary, and try this one—the TRINITY!—and let’s not forget Christology! We could go on and on listing important doctrinal matters over which the Church historically has NOT been in totally agreement.
Ware essentially claims that though God is perfectly capable of guaranteeing universal agreement on some doctrines (very few in fact, but omniscience is one of them!) God just didn’t see the need to do the same in all these other areas. Ware wants us to believe that because the Church has universally affirmed that God eternally knows all that shall ever come to pass it must be the case that GOD is the one who guaranteed that the Church got it right? What, don't these other doctrines matter? If the omnipotent God can with little effort guarantee that the WHOLE Church throughout history got it right on omniscience, where was God on all these other doctrines? Puuuleeease.
Historical theology is important. I want to know what Christians before me have believed, what questions they've struggled with, what answers they've found, WHY they felt believing this or that was important, etc. It's all important. We'd be insane to ignore history. Open theists have an interest in history too--Calcidius! But the Reformers were prepared to start over. Look at Luther and the Epistle of James (the "Epistle of Straw" I think he called it). Luther was open to redefining the canon. Imagine that. Were he to apply for membership to the ETS they'd slam the door in his face.
Gotta run! Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 3/19/2006 2:17:22 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 3/20/2006 9:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Excellent point (as usual!), Tom.
I value church history for two reasons. First, the Fathers and subsequent giants worked their butts off (over many, many years) in order to hammer out what could be thought of as established orthodox (accepted) theology. But, as Tom has noted, even then there were rumbles, upsets and turnovers. Second, the very process of church histories reveals the influence of cultural context and theological presupposition. These two ingredients not only greatly affect the flavor of church history, but without these ingredients, there could be no church history! As it turns out, if one pays close enough attention, it is in a context and in theological presupposition where ALL of us interact to form our doctrines.
What does all this mean? It means working out our theologies (no matter what period in time) is never simple; it is never clear cut; it is always in cultural context; it is always with presupposition; it is always dynamic. Truly out of all of church history comes a few constants, a few certainties and, for sure, enough quality to feed the soul; however, not without plenty of gray area for each culture, each presupposition to have something to say about past, present and future church history. Church history is a solid—in that it is not etheral or liquid—piece of malleable substance that is always ready to be shaped without sacrficing or loosing its distinctive nature and observable identity
Starkman My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/22/2006 12:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | It would be a GREAT issue to pursue! Greg and I were talking about it recently. It's the main thrust of his upcoming third in the trilogy (Myth fo the Blueprint). There is SO much stuff out there in the first four centuries to mine. But you gotta know Greek and Latin and take the time to just wade through it patiently. There are MORE Calcidiuses (sp?) out there. It's super unlikely that he's the first one to come up with his ideas.
You should meet and talk to Greg about some ideas. For my M.A. thesis I'm thinking of:
A Critical Evaluation of Calcidius: Toward an Open View Approach to Biblical Prophecy
Luckily Calcidius's On Fate is in English and it's only an M.A. thesis!
Tom
| | Back to Top | | |
     |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 3/28/2006 1:19 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Sir_Edward said... A question about Calcidus:
Is there any place where his writings are available for a price reasonable to a poor scholar pastor?
Borrow Tom's copy.
Don't return it.
"in the bar, in the senate, in the alley, in the study
pimping dreams of riches for everybody" | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 3/28/2006 1:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
  |  Pentz Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 59 | Posted 3/29/2006 8:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Ed, You can do Interlibrary loan at your local library if the library does not have the book. All you have to do is know the title and the librarians should know how to order it for you.
Nate | | Back to Top | | |
 | Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:27 PM (GMT -6) There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|