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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/11/2006 4:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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jasonlevene
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 40
| Posted 6/11/2006 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff: 2) The incident with Pharoah was not an incident to show that God is interested in trumping ALL free volitional acts that result in evil. It had specific purposes that are revealed in scripture for us. None of those reasons have to do with some supposed intention of God to prevent ALL evil in a fallen world. As C.S. Lewis has rightly argued, a world where ALL evil is resisted by supernatural intervention would not be a rational order at all.
In short, you ASSUME that Christ is glorified MORE by radical providential interventions than by suffering for the joy set before him. How would you argue that?
Jason: The point of this thread is that if Jesus had trumped Adam and Eve's volitional act of sin in Eden, not only would he not have had to suffer on the cross, which Jesus did not want to do, but he would have been protecting the creation you all say he loved so much by giving them the free choice to sin. In other words, for God not have intervened in Eden as he did in Egypt proves that God is a show off who cared more about making a name for himself in Egypt than he did the needless brutal death of his own son. You all say God had a purpose in Egypt that compelled him to intervene...well wasn't protecting Adam and Eve from certain death a purpose that would compel him to act? Wasn't his plan that Adam and Eve live forever? It makes no sense whatsover. Take this illustration...if I as a police officer sit by and do nothing while a man brutally assaults his wife but then I blow away some 16 year old thief because I catch him stealing a comic book...how do you think I will be judged by those I'm accountable to?
The point: don't cry about suffering you are about to endure when you could have prevented it. Post Edited (jasonlevene) : 6/11/2006 4:13:21 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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J.N.Darby
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 124
| Posted 6/11/2006 5:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Well, jasonleven, thank you for your "participation", but I reckon that this is the end of the "conversation" for me, given your "response" today. [But, on the off chance you somehow "missed" my last post to you, it is copied below].
jasonlevene: You guys have said time and time again that the situations of Pharaoh and Adam and Eve were different in that God was fulfilling his purpose through Pharaoh...well wasn't sin a distruption of God's purpose in Adam and Eve? Why didn't God throw some miracle muscle around to preserve his purpose of Adam and Eve ruling the world? You can't have the same Jesus raise heaven wnd earth in Egypt crying about an excruciaitng death he was going to have to endure because he did nothing to stop ADam and Eve. Again, 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time.'
Ricco: jasonlevene, I've been waiting to see if you'd respond to me saying that you've read the webpages I'd referred you to, to see if you're actually interested in the pursuit of knowledge; instead, it seems you haven't taken the time to read what I've pointed to you, and have instead demonstrated an unwillingness to learn. TGB, Bryan L, and JEE have all offered you some great teaching, but it seems obvious to me that you are either not genuinely reading their responses, or not taking a moment to process what they're telling you. Your replies are starting to remind me of a child who, against an elder's explanations that the moon is really big, continues to insist "but you're wrong, look, it's small, like the coin I'm holding up next to it!"
I had already told you that God's purpose in the garden with Adam and Eve was to test them and see whether or not they would sin; thus, sin was not a "disruption" of God's plan with Adam and Eve, as you falsely insist we believe. Thus you are offering falsehood by saying that we're telling you that God's purpose with Adam and Eve was to prevent them from sinning. Either listen to what we're actually telling you, and stop ascribing false ideas to us, or drop this altogether. You're starting to sound both belligerent, and in my opinion, nearly blasphemous - calling God stupid, and implying that He is cowardly; you're judging Him by your own human short-comings and frailties, forgetting that Christ is the Almighty Creator, fearless and courageous, and knew before Creation that, should it be necessary, He would suffer a painful death on behalf of His creation, and seeing that He went ahead and made the world, obviously He was not fearful, not daunted by the prospect of His own sacrifice - do you not think that, in His own omniscience, He didn't know that He'd have to face His human nature in Gethsemene? That He didn't know prior to Creation exactly what He was going to have to endure if humans should sin? Again, obviously in His wisdom (not stupidity) and fearlessness (not being a coward), He wasn't frightened at the prospect, seeing that He went ahead and made humans after all.
Look back over Bryan L's responses (especially the first one), and think them over carefully; and I'd encourage you to not post another response until you've read the webpages I've referred you to, because otherwise you're just demonstrating an unwillingness to communicate or learn. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/11/2006 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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jasonlevene
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 40
| Posted 6/12/2006 12:49 AM (GMT -6) | |
John N. Darby said...
You're starting to sound both belligerent, and in my opinion, nearly blasphemous - calling God stupid, and implying that He is cowardly; you're judging Him by your own human short-comings and frailties, forgetting that Christ is the Almighty Creator, fearless and courageous, and knew before Creation that, should it be necessary, He would suffer a painful death on behalf of His creation, and seeing that He went ahead and made the world, obviously He was not fearful, not daunted by the prospect of His own sacrifice - do you not think that, in His own omniscience, He didn't know that He'd have to face His human nature in Gethsemene? That He didn't know prior to Creation exactly what He was going to have to endure if humans should sin? Again, obviously in His wisdom (not stupidity) and fearlessness (not being a coward), He wasn't frightened at the prospect, seeing that He went ahead and made humans after all.
Look back over Bryan L's responses (especially the first one), and think them over carefully; and I'd encourage you to not post another response until you've read the webpages I've referred you to, because otherwise you're just demonstrating an unwillingness to communicate or learn.
John I don't think I'm going to be checking out any websites...I think I got everythng I need in your response right here. You say Jesus was undaunted by the prospect of his own sacrifice...well like I told the other open theist I"m debating, there's a little thing called 'the bible' that clearly refutes that statement. Not only was Jesus was sweating blood in Gethsemane but he asked God the Father to get him out of the suffering...thus nullifying YHWH altogether. Is this what you call 'undaunted'? As I've said time and time again, Jesus was smarter in our inferior flesh than he was as Almighty God because in our flesh, he sought an escape from his impending suffering while as God, he let Adam and Eve sin and thus call for the very suffering and death he so dreaded. You guys have tried [quite valiantly I might add] to differentiate Adam and EVe from Pharaoh but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there is no difference...in fact it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that God had more than enough cause to intervene in Eden than he did in Egypt...especially since he so dreaded the consequences of his very own inaction in Eden.
So to basically recap, your Jesus [not mine] lets Adam and Eve sin without lifting a finger, he raises heaven and earth to free some Israelites, and when the time comes for him to suffer the consequences for not doing in Eden what he did in Egypt, he seeks to evade those consequences - even calling for the abolition of YHWH himself. So again, in contrast to what the bible says, it wasn't our sin that put Jesus on the cross. It was his own 'mistake' in not stopping what required the suffering in the first place. | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 6/12/2006 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm going to boot him unless there arises some outcry on his behalf. The only rule of thumb for this site is that it is here for productive discussion. People who persistently demonstrate an unrepentant lack of intellectual virtue are not welcome here. I believe Jason has sufficiently demonstrated his lack of virtue. | | Back to Top | | |
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jasonlevene
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 40
| Posted 6/12/2006 3:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Corey, you tell me why Jesus would not lift a finger to stop Adam and Eve from sinning, raise heaven and earth to free the Israelites, and then try to get out of the consequences for not stopping ADam and eve from sinning as he stopped Pharaoh from remaining obstinate. You say I have lack of virtue...well why don't you prove how virtuous you are and explain the unexplainable.
I think we've pretty much exhausted all rational thought on this topic so if you do decide to boot me, e-mail me when you finally realize how odd it is for God to cry about suffering that he himself could have and should have prevented.
See ya | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/12/2006 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Jason: You say I have lack of virtue...well why don't you prove how virtuous you are and explain the unexplainable.
Tom: Corey's talking about the virtue involved in public discourse, an academic virtue. You made a claim and invited debate. We asked you for an actual argument supporting the assumptions behind your claim. You pontificated.
Jason: ...so if you do decide to boot me, e-mail me when you finally realize how odd it is for God to cry about suffering that he himself could have and should have prevented.
Tom: We tried to get you to examine the presuppositions behind your inistant claim that God should have done this or that in Eden, presuppositions about God, his purposes, the nature of providence, and your refusal to even consider the relative nature of the exercise of divine power (relative to purpose, to covenants, to human freedom, to creational variables, etc.). You refused to offer any argument whatsoever about the assumptions underlying your openning claim. In fact, you refused to recognized that your claim rests upon presuppositions, claiming your beliefs on this matter were self-evident and simple logic.
Take care Jason,
Tom
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