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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/29/2003 9:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | This question was posed on another forum that I post at. I thought it was interesting enough to bring here as well as the answer that I actually worked out as I was typing it. I wanted to get feedback from you guys as well. Below is the exchange:
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quote:
To Those who hold to OV let me ask you this, when did God know about you???
I am not sure if the "big shots" in the Open Thiest ranks have dealt with this question yet. I will take a shot at it but my answer may not be the definitive one. Here are TWO possibilities:
Possibility One: God may have from eternity past, knew every person that was going to be born. Instead of creating each of these billions of people all at once, He instead decided that He would allow man to have some part in His plan through procreation. It is not a difficult task for God to know the billions of people who would have been born by procreation being that He is a God of infinite intelligence and wisdom. Knowing who each and every person would be that would someday come into existence requires no foreknowledge of when they would be born nor of which ones would be saved/unsaved. It simply requires a plan of God to know the billions of people individually that He wanted to bring into this world and a plan in which he would bring this about.
This would bring understanding to such passages of Scripture like Jer. 1:5 which states: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." (NIV) and also:
"Before I was born the Lord called me..." "And now the Lord says-He
who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5
Please note that this is nothing more than a philosophical assertion which cannot be backed by scripture though some passages such as Psalm 69:28; Rev. 3:5; Exodus 32:33 might suggest that God had a record of all who would be born, but who eventually get their names erased from the book for failure to receive salvation. Again, this is just philosophical assertions that I would not strongly advocate at this time without strong Biblical backing.
Possibility Two: God did not know of the existence of any person until the sperm hit the egg. This view seems to have more Scriptural support as seen below:
"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the
womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2
"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my
mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully
made." --Psalm 139:13-14
"But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15(NIV)
These passages seem to imply that God had no knowledge of the person before the inception. BUT, from this possibility, what are we to do with Jer. 1:5 and Isa. 49:1, 5? Here are some alternatives.
Alternative One: There is the possibility that translators were reading their theological perspective into these passages. The possibility of this is seen in alternative translations of Jer. 1:5:
"I chose you before I gave you life, and before you were born I selected you to be a prophet to the nations." (TEV)
5"Jeremiah, I am your Creator,
and before you were born,
I chose you to speak for me
to the nations." (CEV)
Unfortunately, it would take more time and research to dig up more proof for this. Therefore, just consider this as SPECULATION on my part.
Alternative Two: Due to the fact God needed prophets to preach to the depraved Israel and bring them back to Him, He chose certain vessels to be born at certain times and ensured their setting apart before their birth, as He did with Isaac, Moses, and others. Again, this does not require that God have foreknowledge of all events but simply that God is able to plan well in advance due to His infinite intelligence, wisdom and resourcefulness.
These are possibilities and alternatives that can be worked out with further study and research but I present them here simply to answer __________'s question. I am not dogmatic about any of the above so please do not hold me to any of it as though I am presenting a doctrine firmly established in my mind. I am still working through many questions concerning OV myself. Nonetheless, I have seen enough Scripture to accept it as a valid Biblical teaching in relation to God and the future.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 12/29/2003 11:49 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/29/2003 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Several thoughts:
* We don't have an record of all the people God "called" who thwarted God's call (which is why we don't have a record of them). Because God has a PLAN and a CALL on someone doesn't mean that its certain it will come to pass. (e.g. Lk 7:30). (e.g. Ever wonder how many people God called before Abraham said "yes"?)
* For a God of infinite intelligence, there would be no difference between knowing a loving a future possible person and knowing and loving a future certain person. You're NOT less love even if it wasn't certain you'd exist (unless you limit God down to the knowledge and love of a finite creature who has to spread his knowledge and love thin to cover possibilities).
* Part of the ambiguity of the question is that we don't know what a person's "essence" might be apart from all their historical particularities. It MAY be that God decided that "you" would exist, but left somewhat open to contingent decisions whether "you" would be born at such and such a time and in such and such circumstances. Still, its notoriously difficult (though perhaps not impossible) to specify what "you" are IN ABSTRACTION from the historical particularities that result from the contingent decisions that form the "you" you know. (The debate about "trans-world identities" is long, hot, convuluted and unresolved).
* Since the infinitely intelligent God perfectly anticipates all possibilities as though they were certainties, God could have, and would have, eternally known that IF Jeremiah or Isaiah or Paul came into existence in such and such circumstances, he would groom them (call them, set them apart) to play such and such a role in the world. This doesn't mean that any of these individuals HAD to exist. And if it turns out they DO exist, it doesn't mean they HAVE to fulfill their calling.
Yet, if they DO fuflill their calling, they can say, "God set me apart from my mothers womb" or even "God set me apart before I was formed in the womb." Only if we limit God's knowledge do we need to conclude that this implies there existence was certain from all eternity.
Just some thoughts,
Blessings
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/30/2003 1:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/30/2003 2:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I think God called Abraham and only Abraham (well OK, Sarah too). But Abraham brought extra baggage which perhaps at the time God was happy to allow but which had to left behind in Haran.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/30/2003 2:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: Did God call Abram in Ur or in Haran after Terah died?
Tom: Well, note Gen. 12.1: "The Lord HAD SAID to Abraham..." Don't have the Hebrew here at home. But the English would suggest a previous calling back in Ur.
Plus Acts 7.2-3 sort of clinches it: "The God of glory appeared to our Father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. 'Leave your country and your people,' God said, 'and go to the land I will show you'."
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/30/2003 5:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
Several thoughts:
* We don't have an record of all the people God "called" who thwarted God's call (which is why we don't have a record of them). Because God has a PLAN and a CALL on someone doesn't mean that its certain it will come to pass. (e.g. Lk 7:30). (e.g. Ever wonder how many people God called before Abraham said "yes"?)
* For a God of infinite intelligence, there would be no difference between knowing a loving a future possible person and knowing and loving a future certain person. You're NOT less love even if it wasn't certain you'd exist (unless you limit God down to the knowledge and love of a finite creature who has to spread his knowledge and love thin to cover possibilities).
* Part of the ambiguity of the question is that we don't know what a person's "essence" might be apart from all their historical particularities. It MAY be that God decided that "you" would exist, but left somewhat open to contingent decisions whether "you" would be born at such and such a time and in such and such circumstances. Still, its notoriously difficult (though perhaps not impossible) to specify what "you" are IN ABSTRACTION from the historical particularities that result from the contingent decisions that form the "you" you know. (The debate about "trans-world identities" is long, hot, convuluted and unresolved).
* Since the infinitely intelligent God perfectly anticipates all possibilities as though they were certainties, God could have, and would have, eternally known that IF Jeremiah or Isaiah or Paul came into existence in such and such circumstances, he would groom them (call them, set them apart) to play such and such a role in the world. This doesn't mean that any of these individuals HAD to exist. And if it turns out they DO exist, it doesn't mean they HAVE to fulfill their calling.
Yet, if they DO fuflill their calling, they can say, "God set me apart from my mothers womb" or even "God set me apart before I was formed in the womb." Only if we limit God's knowledge do we need to conclude that this implies there existence was certain from all eternity.
Just some thoughts,
Blessings
Greg
Thanks Dr. Boyd. I love that answer. I definitely want to copy and paste it on the other forum.
I definitely think I should have brought the question over here first before trying to articulate an answer myself in light of the fact that you and John have given better insights than I did.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 12/30/2003 5:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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