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Torkuda
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Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 34
 
   Posted 5/20/2006 3:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A while back, a guy named Pascal made an arguement for belief in Jesus. Summed up it was, if you as an athiest are right and I'm wrong, I've nothing to worry about since we both go to the same place no matter what we believe. If I'm right and you're wrong, if you don't believe in Jesus you'll go straight to hell! So you best believe in Jesus.

Needless to say, as much praise and as many "amen"s as this arguement might get in a church, it's a pretty flawed arguement in the real world. One of the major reasons being, Pascal seems to be assuming an issolated system. Almost every religion (Athiesm being an exception) uses some form of penalty to pretty much scare people into belief. Committing out of fear then, is not only not genuine anyway, but rediculous to say the least.

I think Jesus is not a God of fear anyway.

In any case, I've devloped my own wagers for, Active God theology. I don't know how many people share it, but it is my belief that God is an "active" part of creation, here's a link to my site, explaining some of the ideas:
http://www.bibletruthseeker.com/cas...od_theology.htm

Active God theology is close in some respects to Open Theism, I won't deny it, so yes, some of my reasoning could help them just as easily.

Also I believe inclusivism.

I wanted to make a few wagers of my own and see what people thought:

If I'm right, then God plays an active role in creation, but my life's choices are still in my own hands. If someone then says, it's all planned ahead by God, and does not take reasponsibility for his own actions and make his own plans, he'll be utterly destroyed as a human being. Unless a man walks, talks and thinks like he really believes in human reasponsibility, he's actaully going to ruin things for himself and those around him.

If I'm wrong, and God really does plan everything out ahead of time, then first off, its not really my fault I don't believe that anyway! More seriously though, I risk nothing, since they aren't my risks to make anyway, I can't change the course of my life, only God Himself can, and nothing I do can change that. Basically, if its all planned out ahead of time, believe whatever you want and do whatever you want, since in the end, you can only do what you were pre-programed to do anyway!

If I'm right and God saves a man based on the condition of his heart, and you preach instead that salvation is based on praying a certain prayer for God's saving Grace, people will often act as though they have no accountability. Essentially that is what you have told them. They'll pray the prayer of salvation, and then many of them will later on realize, "Hey, now I'm heaven bound no matter what I do!". What a let down it will be for those people when they find out that when their hearts changed like that, and they stopped being humble like when they accepted salvation, they actually condemned themselves.

If you're right, and I preach that Jesus saves based on a man's heart, since the prayer of salvation is actually essentially a common sense committment for one who believes in Jesus, people whom I win over will probably pray it anyway. In the after life they and I will then have no real regrets from our beliefs, aside from getting some details wrong.

Not only that, but I will have hope for the unsaved in this life. I suppose I'll be disapointed in the next, but I'll at least have that hope in this one. (I expect electivist will be rather disapointed themselves if they are right, seeing the overwhelming number of people in hell, compared the teaspoon amount in comparason, in heaven.)
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Ronald A. Newcomb
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 45
 
   Posted 7/23/2006 10:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

While I can't agree that Pascal's wager is inadequate, I can agree you are thinking clearly about Calvinism and Arminianism. Those on this Openness Board usually refer to them together as 'classical theology' because they are opposites only in the idea of God's foreknowledge, and they both get that very wrong.

I came to O.T. on my own by realizing that classical theism(s) made God static (Greek model) and at the same time morally responsible for all evil by planning out all details ahead of time, the basis for judging a human for doing what he is programmed to do is ridiculous and really makes God out to be a sadist. Since God is good, this can’t be the case. I was told to leave a very famous church and declared a heretic because they had no valid arguments to counter my questions. It was more or less, “sit down, shut up and just believe what we say, or get out now.”

The ideas you put forth can be simplified somewhat once one argues that free will being are in fact free to do all the things they are able to do, thus the term. Angels are free to exercise their powers and either choose to follow God or not sometime in the past. God of course is free and limited only by his character, and those limits are substantive, he cannot lie, be immoral, etc., and, of course, humans are free to make moral choices and more limited by their lack of power.

Humans and angels are judged because they can choose evil and a just God must judge immoral things.

I don’t see a huge difference in your theology and OT.

I like the term “Active God Theology” better than “Openess Theology.” This was my point. See my post on time. The Greeks thought the “ultimate being” was outside of time because he could not ever move for any reason, could not change, therefore did not need time, and this rolled right into Christianity especially with Augustine, Calvin, Beza, etc.

Unfortunately, this plays into naturalisms unbounded universe vs. the Bibles bounded universe model and help set us up for naturalism/relativism via Einstein.

Keep up the good work, if you want to write, please do, I am infrequently on this board simply because it take too much time. r.newcomb@sciences.sdsu.edu or newcomb1@cox.net


R.A.Newcomb
 

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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
 
   Posted 7/24/2006 12:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Pascal's wager could be applied to any belief system, hence it doesn't seem very compelling an argument for Christianity.

You're gambling if you don't believe in Thor. Or the 'wee folk'. Or Baal. Or Amaterasu.....


"in the bar, in the senate, in the alley, in the study
pimping dreams of riches for everybody"

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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 7/24/2006 12:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
LAIKA!!!! How are ya bro?

Tom


 

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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
 
   Posted 7/24/2006 12:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
LAIKA!!!! How are ya bro?

Tom

Salmon
 
Back from my niece's wedding in Fairbanks, brought some smoked King Salmon home.  Want to try some?  Yum, yum.  Them bears ain't stupid.
 
How's come there's no thread on Lebanon?   Have they hit your house yet?  Maybe I should send the Israelis the coordinates.....
 
 


stained-glass windows in the sky

Post Edited (Laika) : 7/24/2006 1:10:27 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 7/24/2006 3:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nothing landing near our place. The Beirut damage is pretty much limited to the southern burbs where the Shi'ite/Hezbollah folk leave. Sad.

Hmmm. Salmon, eh?

Tom


 

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Laika
Registered Member




Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
 
   Posted 7/24/2006 3:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
Nothing landing near our place. The Beirut damage is pretty much limited to the southern burbs where the Shi'ite/Hezbollah folk leave. Sad.

Hmmm. Salmon, eh?

Tom

Yeah, clear a weekend evening on your calendar.
 
So will the Lebanese government be able to take control of the south with Israeli help?
 
hmmm 


stained-glass windows in the sky

Post Edited (Laika) : 7/25/2006 7:16:37 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 7/25/2006 11:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
 B e a u t i f u l !
 
Nature of Lebanon Photos
 
 
 
Go see!
 
hop 
Go see!
 
 


(o)

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