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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2006 12:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Here's the long version of the question...
Is it possible to conceive of the aesthetically-satisfied, emotionally stable, all-loving, omniscient, infinitely-intelligent God...
1) internally feeling PERSONALLY DEVALUED by a person who sins against God
and...
2) having an active emotional response that exhibits divine displeasure towards said person BECAUSE of the internalized feeling of being devalued? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2006 2:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Jef:
I agree that God is not offended by creatures. But God could be jealous for the glory of Christ. In this case, the divine emotions spoken of in scripture seem to be explicable without positing a needy deity. This would also be consistent with a divine desire for eventual universalism once those who "suffer with him" receive their inheritance in the temporal portion of Christ's reign.
There's two ways that this wouldn't work:
1) Remember the Triune God and all that entails. Christ being glorified IS the Father being glorified. And the Son being dishonored IS the Father being dishonored. God would ULTIMATELY be getting offended because the TRIUNE GOD wasn't getting the worth due to God. It's the same problem...just a different form.
2) Jealousy for the glory of Christ (as I understand it from reading the other thread) essentially deals with Christ not getting his due. Here are your words...
In this case, God is not offended because He is not getting His due, per se. Rather, God is angry because Christ, for whom are all things, is not getting his due. IOW, God gets His satisfaction primarily from the glory of Christ, but Christ gets his glory from the creation. This is in agreement with the verses that speak of God "giving" followers and brethren to Christ.
For this, let's speak of the Father and the Son in personal form. What I hear you saying, jef, is that if the Son is not getting his due, the Father takes this devaluing on empathetically to the point of OWNING the offense for himself. The Father is angry at sinners for devaluing his beloved. But I'd like you to notice that this is STILL effectively the Father having an INTERNALIZED FEELING of devaluation and having an emotional response of divine anger BECAUSE of that internalized feeling of devaluation.
The...issue...is...still...there.
Why would a God, who KNOWS the worth of the Son, care a WHIT about other people devaluing him? As long as the Father knows the true worth of the Son...AND the Son knows that the Father knows the true worth of the Son (ie loving relationship between the Father and Son), then WHY would there be any problem? The Father would just enjoy his relationship with the Son...and understand that other people are truly missing out on something if they devalue the Son. It would not be emotionally NECESSARY for the Father to be angry on behalf of the Son.
What you are describing, Jef, is an emotional boundary issue right there, not a divine virtue!
Moreover, the Father's urge and activity to care for the Son would NOT be equivalent to the Father getting angry with people who "diss" his Son.
Do see what I'm saying?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/2/2006 2:31:44 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2006 4:34 PM (GMT -6) | | After thinking about all this...NOW read this...
Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
by Jonathon Edwards
www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html
Interesting part...
They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God, that is expressed in the torments of hell. And the reason why they do not go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as he is with many miserable creatures now tormented in hell, who there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell.
So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and does not resent it, that he does not let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/2/2006 4:38:53 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2006 9:48 PM (GMT -6) | | OK!
We got a yes vote!
Say, whoever you are who voted yes. Could you please IM me and help me understand how God internalizing personal offense is possible, given what we know about God's nature? You don't have to put your explanation out here if you don't want to. But I'm looking for any possible explanation for saying that God can genuinely be "offended" and angered by people who sin.
Help me out.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/5/2006 12:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi, I am SOOOO thankful you are asking this particular question right now because I have been wondering basically the same thing. I am impressed with the love that Jesus shows us and with the act of sacrificial love that Jesus gave for ALL humanity. However, I am totally confused on the incongruity from the Old Testament to the New Testament. "We do not wage war with FLESH AND BLOOD but with principalities..." so then WHY does God's wrath seem to be so prevalent in the Old Testament toward FLESH AND BLOOD?
I know that there is right anger verses inappropriate anger. I know you can get angry without sinning... but the actions that are exhibited in some of the Old Testament stories seem to go beyond anger to almost a rage. God destroys humanity, except for Noah and his kin, basically because he is angry at their sin. God had the firstborn boy killed, unless the blood was on the doorpost, because Pharoah wouldn't comply. Moses begs God to spare the people even though God has become angry with their sinful ways... This type of behavior reads to be so HOSTILE.
Yet in the New Testament we have Jesus hanging out with the sinners. Even when Jesus gets angry in the temple he doesn't harm people yet in the OT God destroys nations. Jesus tells Peter to put away his sword and yet in the OT wars are often faught.
Mephi, I'm with ya! I really want to fall in love with God the Father but in my mind God the Son seems so much more gentle and loving in the way he treats humanity. I LONG, LONG to understand how God can appear to be so different from the two parts of the bible. I LONG to have a sermon series on the Old Testament and how God interacted and showed his love to people. Instead I hide behind Jesus, peeking out at God the Father like a scared little girl.
Thanks,
trosie
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/5/2006 10:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Trosie:
I really want to fall in love with God the Father but in my mind God the Son seems so much more gentle and loving in the way he treats humanity. I LONG, LONG to understand how God can appear to be so different from the two parts of the bible. I LONG to have a sermon series on the Old Testament and how God interacted and showed his love to people. Instead I hide behind Jesus, peeking out at God the Father like a scared little girl.
WOW, Trosie. Thanks for such a open, personal, and transparent perspective. Mad props to ya! 
**********************
POW:
Addressing this ONLY at a human level.....
Do I get "offended" at a two year old who miss-behaves -- or do I sorrow?
Good show, sir.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/6/2006 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | |
trosie said...
Thanks Mephi. I just really am wrestling with this perspective of God the Father. My open, personal, and transparent expression is a plea for some insight. I want desperately to feel the same safety and love for that personhood as I do for Jesus.
POW, I appreciate the perspective of a parent of a two year old but here is my struggle:
God is LOVE
LOVE IS PATIENT = GOD is PATIENT
The way I see your example of the parent with the two year old is more one of discipline than anger. If a parent gets angry at their two year old I think the BEST thing to do is to take a 10 second time out. Yet in the Old Testament God seems to react out of anger in a rageful way. This is what I don't understand but REALLY want to.
Thanks!!!
trosie Often in the OT the language is that of one sovereign (ruler of a country) to another. And there were traditions for that. The kind of expressions warning that God would not always be patient, or that it was too late whatever Israel did, were fitting for that. Yet notice that God also presents Himself as free to stil extend mercy any time He wants.
Its court-transcript language, and PR.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
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nogodblog
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 9/15/2006 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | | How can your GOD who is non-existant be worried about a Sin (like you masturbating watching pamela andeson) which you did? the question itself is funny..and trosie if jesus is your father who is your mother? and mepheternal, you really want to fall in love with GOD and you cant find him/her/it? what a pity! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2006 4:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's another problem I have with the question "Does God Get "Offended" at Sinners?"
It's this: that the question seems predicated on a sort of junior high fairness that expects the "grown up" to always start over and count to five before punishing. (btw, as a parent I never count up or use 'halves' and 'quarters', I count down. 
Rather than that, scripture shows God sometimes saying "times up" when from a human narative it seems too soon. Scripture shows that God decides.
We might want to MEASURE offendedness. But scripture doesn't allow that. God DOES, and no one and no thing stands in his way when "the day" comes.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2006 4:20 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Pre-script: Mine are no longer two, but are thirteen and sixteen.
Substitute "zeal" for "rage." I'm told that is a better translation.
Then bump the age to seven and look to the zeal a loving parent knows when they not only have to punish to correct and train, but also to show through their zeal that it is not just a matter of the few persons involved, but of right and wrong -- of truth an falsehood. Through a mixture of anguish and tears that zeal is then funneled through punishment. Love does not lax; but it does not restrain consequences. ONLY patience superceeds it. But patience can also included and overlap the abiding "wrath." The child remains grounded/punished, suffering; while the suffering is reflected in the parent's heart too.
(But parents are limited to not being able to come back incarnated as a child.)
trosie said...Thanks Mephi. I just really am wrestling with this perspective of God the Father. My open, personal, and transparent expression is a plea for some insight. I want desperately to feel the same safety and love for that personhood as I do for Jesus. POW, I appreciate the perspective of a parent of a two year old but here is my struggle: God is LOVE LOVE IS PATIENT = GOD is PATIENT The way I see your example of the parent with the two year old is more one of discipline than anger. If a parent gets angry at their two year old I think the BEST thing to do is to take a 10 second time out. Yet in the Old Testament God seems to react out of anger in a rageful way. This is what I don't understand but REALLY want to. Thanks!!! trosie
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 9/15/2006 5:07:15 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2006 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | |
nogodblog said...
if jesus is your father who is your mother? ngb, when you read what you wrote, is that what you meant to say?
To a Christian that appears odd. For twenty-hundred years now Christians have been saying that Jesus was their brother.
The only one about whom we say "without a mother" is the "Living Word" of God; who we claim is not a creation of God, but is also God.
Lots of religions all over time and geography use the language of three words: god, word, and spirit. They all mean different things by it. And if you look at what they mean you can learn a lot about their view of the world, and their experience of it. One of those "god's word" ways-of-thinking is to reckon that word as something a certain god does (speak) and leaves behind to cause its effect. Partnering, in various ways with the "word" is the "spirit," which is ussually an impersonal power or effect.
What's different about Christianity and Orthodox Judaism is that they regard the messenger/word of God to be divine. By that I mean that the Word is not a creature. It does not get created and then pass into non-existance.
We still aren't to the point yet where we can address the notion of "brother"; so we'll keep going... We will head back to the personal word.
Lots of notions throughout history have concerned the subjects of time, and of origin and being. OURS is unique. We consider that the world was created BY the Word THROUGH the Spirit at the Will of the Father.
What that says is that the action of creating (and this says a lot about what and who is created, and their worth!) is that what-is created is not at all a removed, discarded, chaotic event -- something un-thoughtout. Not at all. What is done in Creation OF the Will of the Father is acted upon -- done -- by the Word ("Son," because he's the perfect reflection of the Father's Will). Creation is done with care and with appreciation by its maker. But rather than an entropy of first creator and sub-creator, OUR understanding holds within it the promise that God is always "everywhere present and filling all things" by His Spirit. Created by the Word THROUGH the Spirit AT the Father's will.
OK, so we've got the Son who is the "exact image of the Father" and perfectly reflects the Will and Goals of the Father for the Creation (which includes us, and shows that we all matter!). And we've got the mature notion that the Spirit is also God -- that EVERYTHING God does matters to God, and that the spirit everywhere and fillling all things is not a cast off; not a ricochet or a tidal "force."
All these things said are also about the nature of the cosmos. God is at its center, and beyond its center: present and transcendent.
And cornerstone to this is that God is with us. In will. In person. In spirit/act.
The ultimate Word of God "for us" is the same "Word" that created everything. But the ultimate "for us" word is the BECOMING MANKIND of the Son of God.
ONCE, and certainly for all, God became man, and remains one of us; while not ceasing to BE God!
"SON" of the Father. And now Son of Man. Born of a woman, without a (human) father, the Word, who was "begotten" of the Father (of whom He is the True Reflection) without a mother. (Divinities in religious myths that are the product of two deities -- one male and one female -- are less than or at least markedly 'different' and unharmoneous with their "parents.")
N O W .................. ( if you are still with me )
WE are "brothers" of the Son BY ADOPTION: BY HIS BECOMING ONE OF US AND SUFFERING OUR WORST, AND VICTORIOUSLY SURMOUNTING OUR CHALLENGES IN HIS LOVE FOR US. And he became our "brother" though and by his Spirit's power to adopt us and bond our hearts to His Love (which is the Love of the Father, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit). Adopted, we become "heirs" of the Father.
And in THAT way -- only that way -- we can call God "Father." And even "Daddy" if we do not presume to define it as fits our latest impulses (which are ussually reactions to whatever is hitting the fan at the moment.)
But when we can see each other with God's eyes -- the Father's will, the Son's action, the Spirit's endurance ... THEN when we see each other as brothers we can call God "Daddy."
When we will to be sons, then we have a brother and a father.
Hope that helped a smidge.
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