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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/11/2006 9:50 AM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said...
...aren't you implicitly saying that the starting point for all of our thinking about this should be our EXPERIENCE of the salvific effects ....
D., I can't BEGIN to tell you tell you how sappy the word "experience" looks to me!  I run from it. And there are some related things worth mentioning. Sometimes Christians go to church for what they can "get out of it." <buzzer> Nah. We worship because God is God and we have been given the office of doing so. God does not need, and worship only because God allows us to be able. Grace; not worthiness. Meetness/rightness; not what we might gain from worship. With Paul, I am the worst of sinners.
"Salvific effects"? Don't make me gag!
.
The starting point, then, is God. And the touchstone, then, is our salvation in Christ.
Christ is the bridge between God and man. And in him we can experience the divine life of the Trinity.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Vlathos is well worth frequent reading!!!!!!!!!!
Over and over.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2006 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the engagement, POW. I knew you'd have some goodies for me to consider.
POW:
I don't think that anyone would say that Scripture does not communicate anything about God's actual existence! To do so would require something that I can't stand: the notion that the Trinity is an illusion based only on the economy and not being true about God. The Triunity is a mystery!!!!!!!!!!! But it is true and "about God's existence." The fact of the eternal begottenness of the Son and the Progression of the Spirit are mysteries -- but they are true and they are "about" God.
Perhaps I should have been more precise. Replace "actual existence" with "essential existence"...God's essence.
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POW:
The WHOLE DISCUSSION about essence and energy SHOULD REALLY be recognized -- and historically it is -- to be attention to slavation of us men. ("...for us men/humanity and our salvation..." Salvation is NOT about an intermediary, like Thomas' followers morphed his theology into. Relationship with God is not solely in the intellect, like some strains of Scholasticism. PERSONAL relationship with God is a relationship with the PERSONAL uncreated energies of God. Lets be timely to reaffirm that I am not a member of the Trinity and neither are you. We do not relate to the Spirit or the Son or the Father as another person in the Godhead. But Orthodoxy affirms that this DOES NOT limit our relationship with God. And neither is salvation, then, limited to legal changes. SALVATION is becoming "engodded" just our Lord became enfleshed. And Christ is "the man" in whom our salvation is. The coinherence/perichoresis in Christ by the Spirit SHOWS US that humanity naturally is formed for communion with God.
I agree and disagree. I agree that Christ shows us that humanity was formed for communion with God. I disagree that salvation should be considered so anthropocentrically...which seems to be what you are doing. But again, that's just my perspective.
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POW:
And WHAT does Scripture tell us about how we can KNOW God, and about what the nature of that knowing is?
Christ
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POW:
D., I can't BEGIN to tell you tell you how sappy the word "experience" looks to me! I run from it. And there are some related things worth mentioning. Sometimes Christians go to church for what they can "get out of it." <buzzer> Nah. We worship because God is God and we have been given the office of doing so. God does not need, and worship only because God allows us to be able. Grace; not worthiness. Meetness/rightness; not what we might gain from worship. With Paul, I am the worst of sinners.
"Salvific effects"? Don't make me gag!
The starting point, then, is God. And the touchstone, then, is our salvation in Christ.
Christ is the bridge between God and man. And in him we can experience the divine life of the Trinity.
I think you may be responding way too reactively to your previous interpretations of the word "experience" here. All I'm saying here is that we don't start with DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of God, but with our experiences of God's working and the worldviews and interpretations that come from those experiences. We wouldn't even be able to give MEANING to the idea of "salvation in Christ" if we had no reflection on our EXPERIENCES of God's working.
Of course, God's working is always previous. No one said that it wasn't. But, as existential philosophers have (rightly, I believe) intuited, there IS no objective perspective from whence to appropriate God's activity. We always begin with our EXPERIENCE.
See what I'm saying?
*****************
POW, do you realize that it's genuinely possible for people to hold to trinitarian process belief (which has slightly different presuppostions than your position) AND still experience the divine life of the truine God in Christ? Do you realize that this IS possible?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...God's essence.
PoW: OK.
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I agree and disagree. I agree that Christ shows us that humanity was formed for communion with God. I disagree that salvation should be considered so anthropocentrically...which seems to be what you are doing.
PoW: Can you clarify? I don't get it.
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Christ
PoW: Amen.
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PoW: Don't make me gag!
M.E.: you may be responding way too reactively
PoW: I was (trying to be) being "funny" there.
.
M.E.: All I'm saying here is that we don't start with DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of God, but with our experiences of God's working
PoW: Can you parse this?
My first reading led me to conclude that you and Palamas (and all the Fathers) would be on different sides of this. Orthodoxy holds that the uncreated energies of God ARE direct in our contact/knowledge. We AREN'T limited to seeing the results of the Spirit's actions and then drawing conclusions. And that seems what you are saying. Do you understand what the Orthodox are saying?
.
M.E.: We always begin with our EXPERIENCE.
See what I'm saying?
PoW: No. I can take what you said and arive at "We always begin with our EXPERIENCE" and CONTRAST THAT WITH "experience of DIRECT KNOWLEDGE."
Can you make this clear?
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M.E.: POW, do you realize that it's genuinely possible for people to hold to trinitarian process belief (which has slightly different presuppostions than your position) AND still experience the divine life of the truine God in Christ? Do you realize that this IS possible?
PoW: I recognize that someone can have certain intellectual ideas -- which are descriptions and are often in flux, are they not -- and have a different actual experience of real reality.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 9/11/2006 11:05:25 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 9/11/2006 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | M.E.: All I'm saying here is that we don't start with DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of God, but with our experiences of God's working
PoW: Can you parse this?
My first reading led me to conclude that you and Palamas (and all the Fathers) would be on different sides of this. Orthodoxy holds that the uncreated energies of God ARE direct in our contact/knowledge. We AREN'T limited to seeing the results of the Spirit's actions and then drawing conclusions. And that seems what you are saying. Do you understand what the Orthodox are saying?
Hmm...let me try this.
Is there any way that a person can have OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE about God? Are even properly basic beliefs to be considered OBJECTIVE knowledge? Or is there always an irreducibly subjective element there? If so, could this subjective element be linked to "experience"? (Please note that I have a more process-influenced understanding of "experience" here when I'm using the term.)
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M.E.: POW, do you realize that it's genuinely possible for people to hold to trinitarian process belief (which has slightly different presuppostions than your position) AND still experience the divine life of the truine God in Christ? Do you realize that this IS possible?
PoW: I recognize that someone can have certain intellectual ideas -- which are descriptions and are often in flux, are they not -- and have a different actual experience of real reality.
Yet, the intellectual ideas CAN be meaningfully related to the actual experience of reality, n'est pas?
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Just thinking something through...after reading some stuff in the pelagia.org site. (Good stuff, too!)
Description of soul...remixed.
1. Soul: dispositional reality within creatures with holds the ontological seat of creaturely relationality.
2. Nous: Aspect of dispositional reality that prehends and interacts with God's subjective aims. (This is the "power of the soul" as well as being the "eye" of the soul!)
3. Word: The authentic expression of the Nous in determining the state of the Soul.
4. Spirit: Life-giving process of the soul's being/becoming.
This is how it make sense, using some altered process categories, to talk about the Nous being related to soul, heart, reason, and attention. ALL of those things are in some way reliant upon and impacted by the Nous. And this is why the idea of "self-disposing" dispositional realities is crucial. There is VOLITIONAL REALITY within the Nous...which is what makes for the possibility of a form of "willed" ignorance, spiritually speaking. Which is important when we consider the sickness itself.
Kierkegaardian despair (the sickness unto death) happens when we "leap" into a state of self-relation to our relation before God where we MISRELATE in that self-relation such that we 1) don't will to be ourselves and in so doing 2) fail to rest transparently in the Power that created us (God). And it begins, I believe, with the Nous. As the deterioration of that goes, so goes the sickness of the soul.
Despair is rooted out when "in relating itself to itself and in willing to be oneself, the self rests transparently in the power that established it" That is to say, when we purify our Nous, we percieve reality (including God and ourselves) accurately. And we become the true humanity that we were meant to be.
Basically, as our continued persistence is the sickness occurs...we are LESS and LESS able to accurately prehend and interpret reality. Which in turn, leads to pollution of the soul.
Matthew 6:22-23
"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! "
Luke 11:33-36
"None of you lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead you put it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are healthy, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are unhealthy, your body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you."
There's DEEP meaning in these passages.
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"Life is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived." - the saintly Bishop Gerasimos of Abydou
How about this:
Life is a mysterious process of discovery, creativity, and becoming...a lived process where some things are ultimately impentrable and some things are seen by us darkly. In all of these things, life is to be seen as a gift and vocation...and lived with one's whole heart.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/11/2006 11:18:03 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 9/11/2006 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Tell you what, POW.
Can we say this:
IF someone were to grant that the nature of reality is such that biblical statements about God COULD GENUINELY correspond in some meaningfuly way to God's inner experience and/or essential existence...
and...
this someone were to want to say that biblical statements about God being angry at a peson falls within this category...
AND...
this someone were to believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent, perfectly loving, infinitely intelligent, and has aseity, based upon God's perichoretic self-relation...
THAT particular someone would have a difficult time explaining how there exists a suitable context for God to have an angry, indignant disposition towards a person (and interact with that person OUT OF the angry, indignant disposition) for enacting sinful thoughts/behaviors.
Would you go with this? This is not saying you BELIEVE this. It's just asking would you agree with the general direction of logic.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/11/2006 11:29:27 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 9/11/2006 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/11/2006 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
Is there any way that a person can have OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE about God?
(O): Objective Knowledge of water is achieved by jumping into water. You can have subjective knolwedge that follows on the heals of that... BUT you know water as an OBJECT. You have true contact, in every way that water allows and that you are capable of (Did you remember to plug your nose, or are you coughing?)
Objective knowledge of God is dependent on God (who made, sustains and loves the world and is ever-present in his divine uncreated energies), AND it is also dependent on us.
What is desirable is knowing God as dovine Light.
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Just thinking something through...after reading some stuff in the pelagia.org site. (Good stuff, too!)
Description of soul...remixed.
...
This is how it make sense, using some altered process categories,
I'm not really interested in what I think you might -- and I can't tell, really I can't follow -- be doing. I just wonder whether this REMIX isn't just taking one person's words and giving them different definitions and background, and then saying something with a very different meaning. Such is Orwellian double-speak. You loose me.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Original Question: Does God get angry?
Instead, begin with the question of whether I have transgressed God, and what must be done about it, and what Christ has done and the Spirit is doing... And then get off of our a**es and... (and on our knees!)
Repent....
Prayers by the http://www.sv-luka.org/praylake/index.htm
(WHERE'S THE PROSTRATING IN PRAYER EMOTICON?)
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 9/11/2006 11:50:28 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2006 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | POW:
I'm not really interested in what I think you might -- and I can't tell, really I can't follow -- be doing. I just wonder whether this REMIX isn't just taking one person's words and giving them different definitions and background, and then saying something with a very different meaning. Such is Orwellian double-speak. You loose me.
Really?
I thought that I was trying to contextualize the author's meanings into process categories. Seeing similiarities and articulating them...while NOT outrightly obliterating the differences. Nothing more. I think I'm assuming to much here. I'll stop.
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POW:
ME: Would you go with this? This is not saying you BELIEVE this. It's just asking would you agree with the general direction of logic.
(o): Sorry, you lost me.
Don't even worry about it.
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Original Question: Does God get angry?
Instead, begin with the question of whether I have transgressed God, and what must be done about it, and what Christ has done and the Spirit is doing... And then get off of our a**es and...
Repent....
That's part of the point, yo. What does it even MEAN to "transgress" God and what does THAT have to deal with biblical testimony talking about God's anger at God being "transgressed"?
Oh, well...
How about we agree on this: One should always take EVERY possible occasion to focus on getting one's life from Christ. As one does this, the other stuff will work itself out.
Tight?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
POW:
I'm not really interested in what I think you might -- and I can't tell, really I can't follow -- be doing. I just wonder whether this REMIX isn't just taking one person's words and giving them different definitions and background, and then saying something with a very different meaning. Such is Orwellian double-speak. You loose me.
Really?
I thought that I was trying to contextualize the author's meanings into process categories. Seeing similiarities and articulating them...while NOT outrightly obliterating the differences. Nothing more. I think I'm assuming to much here. I'll stop. Thanks, D.
I really can't follow when there are too many things to keep track of. I have a slow "boot up" speed even if I can think quickly and well with what I already am familiar with.
As to the ease you seem to have with putting things into process "categories," I'm of the persuasion that tells me that the backgroud that builds the categories influences things from beneath. Process has somethings behind/beneath it, and the categories are shaped by them. My feeling is that trying to put Vlathos' terms into process categories you will do two things: ignore two thousand years of wisdom, and you will do all the things that happen when you try to force something nice into too small a box and close the lid.
Makes me neurvous. And all my academic training tells me I've got good basis to feel that.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
Original Question: Does God get angry?
Instead, begin with the question of whether I have transgressed God, and what must be done about it, and what Christ has done and the Spirit is doing... And then get off of our a**es and...
Repent....
That's part of the point, yo. What does it even MEAN to "transgress" God and what does THAT have to deal with biblical testimony talking about God's anger at God being "transgressed"?
What does it mean to transgress God? Good question.
What does the CHURCH say this means? Begin with God and with Creation. Begin there. God's "logoi" (commands) that Calvin called "Creation-law." Begin there. Transgressing God MEANS to go against the law/word that actually even DEFINES US. Doing THAT puts us against the grain of what God continues to do in us.
Ever seen someone like me center a pot. The clay is wiggling and the potter pretty consistently -- with a few strategic sidesteps -- continues to do the same thing. God does that. But God also does relationship building too. Part of us is creaturely and part of us is personal relationships. God created both. And God continues to work. And we can be at wobbly loggerheads with it. And feel God's "ZEAL." (Sometimes translated anger.)
.
YES, begin with "What does it even MEAN to "transgress" God "
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 12:27 PM (GMT -6) | | KINDLY PUT *your* definitions along side of the definitions that you find the Metropolitan using!
MephE. wrote...
Just thinking something through...after reading some stuff in the pelagia.org site. (Good stuff, too!)
Description of soul...remixed.
1. Soul: dispositional reality within creatures with holds the ontological seat of creaturely relationality.
2. Nous: Aspect of dispositional reality that prehends and interacts with God's subjective aims. (This is the "power of the soul" as well as being the "eye" of the soul!)
3. Word: The authentic expression of the Nous in determining the state of the Soul.
4. Spirit: Life-giving process of the soul's being/becoming.
Lets see you do that. Slowly, for me.
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One Love
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| Posted 9/11/2006 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
My feeling is that trying to put Vlathos' terms into process categories you will do two things: ignore two thousand years of wisdom, and you will do all the things that happen when you try to force something nice into too small a box and close the lid.
I think that I understand fairly clearly what Vlathos was articulating.
Man is made in the image of God. This image certainly does not refer to the body, but mainly and primarily to the soul. The image in man is stronger than that in the angels, for as we shall see, man's soul gives life to the attached body. In general we can say that the soul is in the image of God. And as God is threefold -Nous, Word and Spirit - so also man's soul has three powers: nous, soul and spirit (18). In all nature there are "iconic examples" of the Holy Trinity (19), but this appears mainly in man. The image in man is stronger than the image in the angels. St. Gregory Palamas, speaking of the baptism of Christ in the Jordan River and explaining why "the mystery of the created and recreated (man) reveals the mystery of the Holy Trinity", writes that this came about not only because man alone is an initiate and earthly worshipper of the Holy Trinity, but also because "he alone is in its image". The sentient and irrational animals have only a vital spirit and this cannot exist of itself; they have no nous and word. The angels and archangels have nous and word, since they are noetic and intelligent, but they have no life-giving spirit, since they have no body which receives life from the spirit. So since man has nous, word and life-giving spirit that gives life to the body joined to it, "he alone is in the image of the three-personal nature" (20).
St. Gregory Palamas develops the same teaching in his natural and theological chapters. As the Trinitarian God is Nous, Word and Spirit, so is man. Man's spirit, the life-giving power in his body, is "man's noetic love", "it is from the nous and the word, and it exists in the word and the nous and possesses both the word and the nous within itself" (21). While the noetic and rational nature of the angels has nous, word and spirit, yet "it does not have this spirit as life-giving" (22). As we have indicated, the image refers primarily to the soul, but since the body is given life by the spirit, therefore the image in man is stronger than that in the angels.
...
This sickness, bondage, impurity and dying of the soul is admirably described in the patristic works. Every sin is a repetition of Adam's sin, and with every sin we undergo the darkening and dying of the fallen soul. Let us take a closer look at these fallen states of the soul.
When man leaves his senses free and through the senses his nous pours out of his heart, then his soul is taken captive. "The unloosing of the senses lays fetters on the soul." This bondage is equivalent to darkening. The setting of the sun creates night. And when Christ withdraws from the soul and the darkness of passions lays hold of it, then "the immaterial beasts tear it to pieces" (46). Man's soul falls into impenetrable darkness and the demons work on him. He finds himself in a moonless night.
This also constitutes the soul's disease. St. Thalassios says: "The soul's disease is an evil disposition, while its death is sin put into action" (47). The ailing soul is led step by step to death.
Actually the soul's disease is its impurity. "Impurity of soul lies in its not functioning in accordance with nature. It is because of this that impassioned thoughts are produced in the intellect" (48). According to St. Maximus, "A soul filled with thoughts of sensual desire and hatred is unpurified" (49).
...
Health of the soul consists in dispassion and spiritual knowledge (58). "The soul is perfect when permeated by the virtues" (59). A soul is perfect "if its passible aspect is totally oriented towards God" (60). A pure soul is "one that loves God" (61). A pure soul is "one freed from passions and constantly delighted by divine love"
....
The nous is the eye of the soul, which some Fathers call the heart. The word is spiritual knowledge "implanted in the nous as always co-existing with it" (368). As Christ the Word is He who reveals the will of the Nous, that is, of the Father, so also the word of man is that which reveals what the nous perceives and experiences. And just as it is impossible to conceive of a word without spirit, so also in man the word is linked with the spirit (369). And just as the Spirit, which is a particular hypostasis, is "an ineffable love of the Begetter towards the ineffably begotten Word himself" (370), so also the spirit in man is a certain impulse of the nous, "which involves an extension in time, in conjunction with our word, and requires the same intervals and proceeds from incompletion to completion"
.....
It is not advice or medicines that heal the sick soul, that give life to the dead nous, that purify the impure heart, but the ascetic method of the Church, self-control, love, prayer and guarding of the nous from Satan's provocations through evil thoughts. Therefore we believe that the Orthodox tradition is very important for our time, for it is the only thing that can free a man and heal him from the anxiety and insecurity brought on by the death of his soul.
......
Actually when human intelligence has dominion in a man, it leads him to a variety of heretical theories. Here the difference between philosophers and theologians is evident. The former philosophise about God. The latter, after purifying their nous, behold God. The former have a darkened nous and interpret everything one-sidedly through intelligence, while the Holy Fathers, the real theologians, acquire experience of God through their nous; and then intelligence serves their nous by expressing this inner experience in propositions.
............
We have lost our tradition relating to it, and many of us identify the nous with intelligence. We do not at all suspect that aside from intelligence there is also another power which has greater value: the nous, the heart. The whole of civilisation is a civilisation of the loss of the heart. And a person cannot understand what he has not in his heart. The heart has died, the nous has been darkened, and we cannot perceive their presence. That is why this clarification has been necessary. A person who has the Holy Spirit within him, who is "in the revelation", does not need many clarifications, because he himself knows from experience the presence and existence of the nous, the heart.
Simply...
Transformation of the "nous" leads towards more ACCURATE perception of and relation to God, oneself, and one's world. As goes the "nous", goes the soul. And this is the sickness. Transformation of the "nous" occurs through cultivating a sense of HUMILITY before God...just like what SK basically says.
The way of knowing God in patristic theology is different from that of the philosophers. True knowledge of God is founded on humility: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt.5,3). On purity of heart: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matt.5,8). On keeping the commandments of Christ: "Anyone who transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son" (2Jn.9). On love: "If one loves God, one is known by Him" (1Cor.8,3). It is not through human wisdom, through mental wealth and intelligence, that one can know God. The wisdom of God was unknown to "the rulers of the age, for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1Cor.2,8). In fact "the unspiritual man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God" (1Cor.2,14).
Only through purifying the Nous...and bringing it away from it's own internal fragmentation and leading it humbly towards total focus on God...can the soul's sickness be eliminated.
Now...from YOUR perspective...do I have the general ideas down at least?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/11/2006 12:49:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2006 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
And what do you mean by "God's subjective aims?"
I assumed way too much with this. I see that now.
God's subjective aims, as was stated in the Orthodox/Process dialogue, would be like unto talking about God's energies to which souls can respond...or...ignore. If we are not in the process of purifying our "nous", we can IGNORE or PERVERT the direction towards which God is trying to lead us. From this we fall into the "sickness" A purified "nous" is have UNIFIED (rather than fragmented) activity and is able to perceive and respond to God in a faithful, humble way.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 9/11/2006 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | Well, whatever my answer might be, when I decide what it is, thanks for all the work and good intentions.
M.E.: Now...from YOUR perspective...do I have the general ideas down at least?
PoW: I don't know. There's the matter of surface versus intrinsic that I can't decide on.
Oh, I've got no questions about you PERSONALLY. But we're talking about not only what ideas but how they are handled. And when it comes to the Fathers I'm very conscious of how my own framwork is insufficient, and how I'm required to be a bit silent and listen to what comes through.
.
M.E.: Simply... Transformation of the "nous" occurs through cultivating a sense of HUMILITY.
PoW: "cultivating a sense of Humility" can mean a lot of different things. Humanistically it can be signed-off on by many I work with, and yet fall short of what it means for the Spirit to indwell.
I noticed your phrasing, and its structure, and wondered -- NOT about you (!), but -- abouthow that structure "objectifies" (automitizes) humility into something that "P.C." can handle. (Boomers have our own things like that too.)
Listen to the way Metropolitan H of V puts it: "The way of knowing God . . . is founded on: humility, purity of heart, keeping the commandments of Christ, and love."
Lots of things can pass for humility. Here it is "the way of knowing God" that is the subject of the sentence.
Continuing: In fact "the unspiritual man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God" (1Cor.2,14). Only through purifying the Nous...and bringing it away from it's own internal fragmentation and leading it humbly towards total focus on God...can the soul's sickness be eliminated.
There, humility is mentioned again; but there too humility is not the subject, but rather "focus on God" is.
As I'm gathering from Vlathos and the Fathers it is not that health, or life itself, is to be originated in me; but that like that ROD OF IRON one of the Gregories wrote of, which when placed in the fire takes on the characteristics of the fire (heat and light) and "becomes" the fire -- by grace -- though it is not fire by nature.
I hope that I don't frustrate you too much!!!
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 9/11/2006 12:59:56 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/11/2006 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
POW:
And what do you mean by "God's subjective aims?"
I assumed way too much with this. I see that now.
God's subjective aims, as was stated in the Orthodox/Process dialogue, would be like unto talking about God's energies to which souls can respond...or...ignore. If we are not in the process of purifying our "nous", we can IGNORE or PERVERT the direction towards which God is trying to lead us. From this we fall into the "sickness" A purified "nous" is have UNIFIED (rather than fragmented) activity and is able to perceive and respond to God in a faithful, humble way.
I'll take some of what you wrote here and just dump the weird-sounding term. But that's me?
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2006 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
As I'm gathering from Vlathos and the Fathers it is not that health, or life itself, is to be originated in me; but that like that ROD OF IRON one of the Gregories wrote of, which when placed in the fire takes on the characteristics of the fire (heat and light) and "becomes" the fire -- by grace -- though it is not fire by nature.
I'd COMPLETELY agree with that idea.
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POW:
I hope that I don't frustrate you too much!!!
Nah. This is fun. Reminds me of the heyday with me and Doc on the board.
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POW:
I'll take some of what you wrote here and just dump the weird-sounding term. But that's me?
You mean the "subjective aims" term? Cool with me, pahtna. 
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/11/2006 1:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
good listening
good listening
good listening
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/11/2006 1:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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