 |
| 
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/8/2004 7:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Mark 11:
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Considering these scriptures in the context of personal faith in God, do they teach original causes by man? It looks to me like Jesus is teaching how to make, within ones relative walk with God, the possible actual. I do not understand the scope of the possibilities of fullfillment described here in relation to anothers free will, but it sure looks like it is possible for man in relationship with God to have what he says, if the conditions are fullfilled. Prayer in the same context looks unstoppable if one believes they receive.
Notwithstanding the complex and relative situation of each individual in this world these scriptures point to a dynamic solution that is freely given for getting control into ones life, in relationship with God. I see in (he shall have whatsoever he saith) causative and possibility in (What things soever ye desire)
PS This is not designed to start anti-charismatic bashing, do the scriptures above have anything to say about the potential and original cause from a personal context, in relationship with God?
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/8/2004 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
You are so quick, I accidentally hit the enter before I was finished. | | Back to Top | | |
|
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/8/2004 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Ron,
I have pondered this account in Scripture a lot in the past. A couple of things seem clear to me. Let me know what you think. I appreciate your input.
1. Jesus said he always said the things he heard the Father say, and always did the things he saw the Father do. In short, Jesus was in every instance perfectly led by the Spirit as to what to speak and what to do, though certainly this involved his voluntary submission to his Father. That being so, the Father must have directly told or showed Jesus that he was supposed to curse that particular fig tree. Also, it seems that this was as sign of God's judgment against the rejecters of God (unbelieving Jews of that day).
Based on this fact (that Jesus was always led by the Spirit due to his perfect voluntary submission to the will of his Father), the application for us as believers seems to be that to the degree that we are submitted to the Father's will and are consequently and steadily led by the Spirit, we will be able to do as Jesus says to do in the passage in question. The problem seems to be that many think Jesus is here giving a carte blanche to just claim anything and everything, without reference whatsoever to God's will, without consulting God.
2. Paul said in 1 Cor. 13 that though he could say to a mountain be removed and cast into the sea, and had not love, it would amount to nothing. In addition, 1 John says that if we ask anything according to His will, he heareth us.
As to your question about causation/actualization, it seems to me that given that Jesus spoke at his Father's bidding, Jesus was not so much initiating anything as he was synergistically working with the Father (as He said, "my Father has been working until now, and I am working.")
They that are led by the Spirit are the children of God (Romans 8:14).
My 2.5c
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/8/2004 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | | John
quote:
Based on this fact (that Jesus was always led by the Spirit due to his perfect voluntary submission to the will of his Father), the application for us as believers seems to be that to the degree that we are submitted to the Father's will, we will be able to do as Jesus says to do in the passage in question. The problem seems to be that many think Jesus is here giving a carte blanche to just claim anything and everything, with no reference whatsoever to God's will.
Agreed, if the conditions are met, then Jesus, (the Father in Jesus) says whosoever shall say .... and shall not doubt in his heart but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he saith. As unreal as this seems, yet Jesus repeatedly taught it, the faith God has given, which is in our hearts must be spoken out of our mouth, and if we doubt not (in our heart) we shall have whatsoever we say. This is congruent with an open future which is created in the dynamic present with this faith speaking as part of the process. Once the conditions are met there seems to be a freedom of exercise of will authorized by the Father. Such as in John 15:7 "If ye abide in me and my words abide in you ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you." Ye shall ask what ye will.
Or in Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
What things soever ye desire. Apart from the abuses of this, Jesus repeatedly teaches that the kind of faith he wants us to have is a word of faith that we speak. Paul teaches this explicitly.
What I am getting at is in this dialogue about an open future, the pragmatical part is God producing faith in the heart of man to speak it forth for the good of man and creation. Faith which worketh by love. Of course word and deed are included.
It just makes sense we can have an expectant hope when we believe and speak the Words of God. Then if we don't, we don't enter in because of unbelief. It validates free will because if you don't cooperate, without God's saving grace, it won't happen for you.
Peace
| | Back to Top | | |
|
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/12/2004 10:12 AM (GMT -6) | | The missing link to make the possible actual.
The missing link for internal peace and order.
The missing link for protection in chaos and evil free wills.
The missing link to make the indeterminate openness determinate, in the will of God.
The Confession of Faith - I will say of the Lord -
Young's Literal Translation
Psalm 91
1 He who is dwelling In the secret place of the Most High, In the shade of the Mighty lodgeth habitually,
2 He is saying of Jehovah, `My refuge, and my bulwark, my God, I trust in Him,'
3 For He delivereth thee from the snare of a fowler, From a calamitous pestilence.
Young's Literal Translation
Luke 8
11 And this is the simile: The seed is the word of God,
12 and those beside the way are those hearing, then cometh the Devil, and taketh up the word from their heart, lest having believed, they may be saved.
Applied Theology - Pragmatic Openness
The missing link - The confession of faith.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/14/2004 3:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Since name it claim it, you have what you say (out of context), and the get rich gospel have so tainted minds, I want to present another view of the confession of faith.
homologeo (confession, profession in the KJV) in the common Greek of the day was used in a legal way. Such as confirmation of receipt, or formally affirming a legal agreement. I suggest it is best understood in the new testament as ratification of the covenant. Verbal agreement with the covenant, Jesus is the covenant.
confession of faith
confess Jesus before men is ratification of the new covenant
Since this is a new and living way, of the spirit, Christ in us, it still is the missing link of expressing a living faith of Jesus in the dynamic present in order to activate covenant agreements for the person. The new covenant is with Christ and those who confess Him.
All that he was then, he is now, in us, by the power of the Holy Spirit. In the reign of God the ratification of the covenant of Christ is present tense and ongoing in that one apply the authority of the covenant in the good fight of faith.
So when you hear confession of faith or speaking your faith. Think ratification of the new covenant of God in Jesus Christ. He is of God made unto us wisdom, santification, power, and righteousness.
With the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ratification of the covenant is a real time transaction before principilities and powers affirming your rights before God in the covenant of Christ. Believe is a verb.
Peace
| | Back to Top | | |
|
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/14/2004 10:12 AM (GMT -6) | | John
quote:
As to your question about causation/actualization, it seems to me that given that Jesus spoke at his Father's bidding, Jesus was not so much initiating anything as he was synergistically working with the Father (as He said, "my Father has been working until now, and I am working.")
I agree and no longer consider free will as originating,other than entering into by decision the new life already existing by the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Peace | | Back to Top | | |
|
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/15/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | VW
quote:
Do you think that speaking "word of faith" or a "word of authority" (or whatever implication one might derive from Mark 11:22-24) could possibly be an aspect of our "spiritual Say-So" that Dr. Boyd mentions in some of his books?
I know that Dr. Boyd is making direct reference to prayer and free-will in his "spiritual say-so" principle, but maybe the ideas you are presenting here have some relationship with it as well.
Ron
Ahh, I looked at the chapter "Praying the Whirlwind" (Problem of Evil) again and had all the say-so portions underlined. Great chapter but GB is the only one who could say if the say-so is the say it we are talking about.
I also liked his illustration page 234 from Paul Billheimer, quote:
God's will is like a business check that must be cosigned in order to be validated. We the church are the cosigning party, and prayer is our signing. Hence the essence of prayer is, as Jesus taught, to align our will with the Father's will--to cosign his will, as it were-- so that his rule is established "on earth as it is in heaven".
I looked up some definitions of ratify today and one on the encarta site says
quote:
formally approve something: to give formal approval to something, usually an agreement negotiated by somebody else, in order that it can become valid or operative.
As I understand what the language scholars have said about the new testament Greek, it was written in the common Greek of the day.
Well I read in Kittel's dictionary of the new testament about the word group that includes homologeo (to confess, promise, praise) and it said of the group in secular Greek usage. "to say the same thing"
senses "to agree to something" (an affirmation, a charge) "to confirm receipt" ect. Also in Socratic dialogue as indicating consent to what is found to be valid followed by the appropriate resolve and action; theoretical assent is not enough.... In the papyri the word takes on the sense of a "compact" or "agreement" of a legal character...
Then in thinking of the way Paul and Jesus used the word confess (homologeo) it made sense it was with this sense in mind. Then the thought came "ratification of the covenant".
On page 232 (Problem of Evil) The Rationale for Prayer
quote:
First, if we have correctly identified empowerment (possessing say-so) as the key to morally responsible personhood, then we can understand why God would empower us to influence things through prayer.
There are different types of prayer and the kind David used in Psalms 91 is one. I wouldn't fall into the trap of the "either or" argument but just believe the ability of Jehova was sufficient to protect.
If one doesn't become distracted with the contemporary arguments against faith speaking and is more organic in their thought processes Mark 11:22-24 is a logical progression from a faith that comes from God.
PS Clarification of the "either or" argument. Either God did or didn't will it or you didn't have enough faith. Forget both, begin with new mercies daily saying "The Lord is my helper I will not fear what man shall do unto me. Or I will not yield my mind to evil, I will not speak guile over my lips"
quote:
Hebrews 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord [is] my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
My emphasis in bold. | | Back to Top | | |
|
rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 1/30/2004 2:32 AM (GMT -6) | | albert
Thanks for the comments. I hope you stick around for awhile. Your input sharpens the discussions. | | Back to Top | | |
|
victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 1/30/2004 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by albert
Just two quick comments:
Firstly, I would fully support John Earp's comments about the receiving of whatever we ask for being dependent on total submission and obedience to God's will. It seems to me there are plenty of scriptures that make this clear, such as I John 3:22:
"... and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight".
Note the "because" clause!
Secondly, regarding the free-will/open theism implications of these verse, I tend to agree with Ron that this verse does imply that the outcome is dependent on our choices. However, this verse will not convince any Calvinist, because they will say that what we ask for is itself first determined/decreed by God. Such an interpretation is counter-intuitive and implausible, but it can't really be proved wrong without examining a whole raft of scriptures. I guess that what we can say is that Mark 11:22-24 is one of many scriptures which adds credibility to the free-will case, but which on its own can't be conclusive.
Albert
You might be surprised at how inconsistent some Calvinists are when it comes to their personal theology of Calvinism and the belief in faith and prayer. A. W. Pink, who I would have thought at one time to be the most extreme Calvinist on that ever lived made some very surprising statements. Let me quote at least two of them:
"And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief"(Matt. 13:58). What place has such a statement as that in the theology of hyper-Calvinists? None whatever. Yet it should have, otherwise why has it been placed upon record if it has no analogy today? As Matthew Henry rightly insisted, "Unbelief is the great obstacle to Christ's favour .... The Gospel is 'the power of God unto salvation,' but then it is 'to every one that believeth' (Rom. 1:16). So that if mighty works be not wrought in us it is not for want of power or grace in Christ, but want of faith in us." That was putting the emphasis where it must be placed if human responsibility is to be enforced. It was nothing but hardness of heart which precluded them from sharing the benefits of Christ's benevolence. When the father whose son was possessed by the demon that the disciples had failed to expel, said unto the great physician, "If Thou canst do anything, have compassion on us,"He at once turned the "if" back again upon him saying, "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." (Mark 9:22-23). - from his book, Practical Christianity
Also, here is a surprising teaching by Pink on Mark 11:24:
"What things soever ye desire when ye pray believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them" (Mark 11:24)
By the words "believe that ye receive them": we understand, expect God to give them to you. But it is at this point that so many of God's people fail oftenest in their prayer lives. There are three chief things to be attended to in prayer.
First, make sure that you are asking for something that is in accordance with God's Word: see 1 John 5:14. But right here, the devil will foil you unless you are upon your guard. He will come as an angel of light and preach a sermon to you on God's holy will. O yes, the devil is quite capable even of that! It is our privilege and duty to know what God's will is! "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is" (Eph. 5:17). It is the revealed will of God which is in view in these passages, for with His "secret" will, we have nothing to do; that is none of our business. - from an article on prayer found at John Piper's webpage.
Charles Spurgeon and other Calvinists taught nearly the same way when it came to prayer. Very inconsistent with their theology but I guess it's the case of "not taking one's theology to its logical conclusions." As you can see, Pink considered those who embraced the belief that you describe as hyper-calvinists.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:22 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|