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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 5:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
...a theologian ... who spends a lot of time and energy doing THEODICY which often builds itself on trying to tell us that finite human beings have enough insight in particular situations of pain, suffering and "evil" to judge God via establishing moral criteria by which certain actions and inactions of God would (or would not) be morally justifiable or otherwise.
Yeah...
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/31/2004 9:03 PM (GMT -6) | | No fair pickin on my twin brother while he's in Asia. I just might have to come out and stick up for him.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/1/2004 7:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Now Mephi, this is interesting. You don't want anybody to stand up and say about any event, "that's evil" because God might be behind the event for some good reason (which only God defines). Remember way back when you were explaining how you then would determine your response to events (a murder, a rape, child-abuse, or...racism) you said (in essence, as I remember): Not by any standard outside myself, but rather by prayer and the guidance of the Spirit." You chided us a bit for not looking to the Spirit to discover what God was doing in some so-called "evil" situation. The idea was (I took it), once the Spirit informs us what our response ought to be (to oppose or not to oppose some so-called evil event going on in front of our eyes) we can then act. But Mephi, how does this not boil down to the same thing you're criticizing Doc of, i.e., making ourselves the ultimate standard of what's good and evil (i.e. in your case, our interpretation of the Spirit's voice and guidance)?
Do you do this with your program at WHC against racism? Do you oppose racism all the time because you believe it's wrong all the time or do you pray and seek to discover from the Spirit which racist acts are brought about by the devil for no good (and which God opposes) and which are brought about God for some good (and which you ought not to waste your energy opposing)? Do you decide as a team which racist acts to oppose, which communities to try to reconcile, or does one person alone listen to the Spirit? What if the team is divided, some convinced you all ought to oppose a particular expression of racism and some convinced the Spirit told them God is behind that expression of racism and therefore you ought to leave it alone?
Trick is, we HAVE to render some judgment, judgment enough to determine what our response will be to events. One could I suppose render no judgment and offer no response to anything. Interesting way to live, and hardly compatible with discipleship to Jesus I should think. Or one could attempt what you suggested last time we hashed this out, i.e., pray and ask God to tell you what your response ought to be so that we don't waste our energies fighting against God by working FOR racial reconciliation, or helping a lady being beating up and robbed, or reporting somebody we know is abusing children. Or we set the default unapologetically on opposing racism, abuse, hatred, rape, etc. If you go with your second option, OK, but the only criticism you can really raise against those who go with the third default setting is that they oppose racism, rape, or child abuse when these are not really evil acts. I don't mind at all standing before God some day and giving an account for myself in this respect. If he judges me for trying to reconcile people he was determining in their racism, or for reporting to the police a neighbor I know is abusing children when God was determining the abuse for some higher good, so be it.
Whooooo doggy! Slam that domino on the table! Wash the dishes! Gi'me my money.
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/1/2004 3:35 PM (GMT -6) | | I believe that one assumption might clarify the distinction that is submitted between “judging” God and judging man.
The fundamental basis of “finite human beings have enough insight in particular situations of pain, suffering and "evil" to judge God via establishing moral criteria by which certain actions and inactions of God would (or would not) be morally justifiable or otherwise” is the assumption that God IS good. “God is light and in Him is no darkness AT ALL…” Hence everything that God is about IS good. I would add that our intuitive sense of justice originates with God and is of the same like and kind
This revelation of God as good is a given. We are to never “judge God” (cf. Job). Rather, we concede the assumption that God is always good. There simply never is a “judgment” to make relative to God.
In contrast the assumption of absolute moral goodness does not hold with any man. Hence I agree with Dr. Boyd that "In our fallen delusion, we believe it's our right and within our capacity to declare unambiguously who and what are "good" or "evil"...we have difficulty accepting our finitude and the massive ignorance and ambiguity attached to it."
To God alone be the glory
John
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/1/2004 4:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm...
We need some clarity. This is what you seem to be saying that I believe, Tom:
If we are ever in a situation where there is pain, suffering, destruction, or dysfunction, we must seek discernment from the Spirit BEFORE we do anything. We do this so that we make sure not to oppose what may be the work of God. Therefore, there is no default setting for opposing situations of pain, suffering, etc.
This is not my position. My position that I stated LONG TIME ago (that Electra and BJS agreed with) as follows:
In any given situation that involves pain, suffering or destruction, or dysfunction, we are to immediately respond to that situation in faith, hope, and love as we understand that conveyed in Christ, biblical principles, and reasonable morality, empowered by and open to the Spirit not only in activity, but discernment. In other words, I leave it OPEN what the ultimate source of the pain, suffering, and evil is. In short, I concern myself much more with RESPONSE to pain, suffering, and evil...rather than it's ultimate or penultimate source.
Doc and I have different default settings. Doc's default deals primarily with the SOURCE of the pain, suffering, etc. That is, unless serious warrants say otherwise, ALL pain, suffering, etc. are ultimately the products of satanic, demonic, or human activity...NOT God. My default deals with the RESPONSE to the pain, suffering, etc. That is, unless serious warrants say otherwise, we are ALWAYS to respond in faith, hope, and love acting AGAINST dyfunctional situations.
I believe that we have to be open to the Spirit as we operate by what we "know" to do, in faith, hope, and love...because it may be the case that God has OTHER plans in mind. One example was the whole "thorn in the flesh" thing with Paul. Paul prayed in faith against the "thorn" UNTIL it was revealed to him that the "messenger from Satan" actually had a DIVINE purpose in it being allowed. Paul did what he knew to do UNTIL the Spirit told him otherwise. Another example. Paul and Barnabas were well within their rights to think that the Gospel needed to go EVERYWHERE. So, they were doing well to try to go to Bythinia. But what happened the Spirit of Christ didn't allow them (Acts 16:6)
Make sure you have my view down, 'kay?
Heh. You miscounted those dominoes, dawg. Take back that money! LOL! 
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/1/2004 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
MephiThis is what you seem to be saying that I believe, Tom:
If we are ever in a situation where there is pain, suffering, destruction, or dysfunction, we must seek discernment from the Spirit BEFORE we do anything. We do this so that we make sure not to oppose what may be the work of God. Therefore, there is no default setting for opposing situations of pain, suffering, etc.
This is not my position. My position that I stated LONG TIME ago (that Electra and BJS agreed with) as follows:
In any given situation that involves pain, suffering or destruction, or dysfunction, we are to immediately respond to that situation in faith, hope, and love as we understand that conveyed in Christ, biblical principles, and reasonable morality, empowered by and open to the Spirit not only in activity, but discernment. In other words, I leave it OPEN what the ultimate source of the pain, suffering, and evil is. In short, I concern myself much more with RESPONSE to pain, suffering, and evil...rather than it's ultimate or penultimate source.
Not sure I see the difference. You respond in faith, hope, and love without rendering any judgment whatsoever as to the source of evil? So in responding to racism, you say nothing about its damage, its threat, its filth? You render no judgment whatsoever regarding the source of racism?
quote:
MephiDoc and I have different default settings. Doc's default deals primarily with the SOURCE of the pain, suffering, etc. That is, unless serious warrants say otherwise, ALL pain, suffering, etc. are ultimately the products of satanic, demonic, or human activity...NOT God. My default deals with the RESPONSE to the pain, suffering, etc. That is, unless serious warrants say otherwise, we are ALWAYS to respond in faith, hope, and love acting AGAINST dyfunctional situations.
And you do this without rendering any judgment whatsoever as to the source of the "evil" you act against? Personally, I wouldn't know how to ACT in love against racism while leaving open the question as to the source (Satan or God) of the racism I was acting against. But I hear you saying that's precisly what you do. Doc only takes a position on the source of evil (without acting against it is what your comparison seemed to imply) while you take no position on the source of evil but act against it (unless God were to specifically tell you otherwise). I'm baffled. But I love you too much to let it matter when I cream you at dominos when I'm back in town! 
quote:
MephiI believe that we have to be open to the Spirit as we operate by what we "know" to do, in faith, hope, and love...because it may be the case that God has OTHER plans in mind. One example was the whole "thorn in the flesh" thing with Paul. Paul prayed in faith against the "thorn" UNTIL it was revealed to him that the "messenger from Satan" actually had a DIVINE purpose in it being allowed. Paul did what he knew to do UNTIL the Spirit told him otherwise. Another example. Paul and Barnabas were well within their rights to think that the Gospel needed to go EVERYWHERE. So, they were doing well to try to go to Bythinia. But what happened the Spirit of Christ didn't allow them (Acts 16:6)
Maybe we're talking about different animals. Not sure. Paul's thorn in the flesh, whatever it was (a "messenger from Satan"), doesn't seem to me to be in the same class as 9/11 or child abuse, or murder. If I was being personally hounded by some demonic force or influence, believing God would permit it to keep me humble is entirely different (in my view) than believing God orchestrates child-abuse or racism. Don't you think so? And being led by the Spirit to avoid Bythinia for some other potentially more fruitful field just makes good sense to me. There's no evil involved in such guidance.
Love ya bro. See ya soon. Hey, God make you a blessing next Sunday. Preach it!
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/4/2004 4:26 AM (GMT -6) | | See my repose to Meph
Book of Job, How about it Doc under the Let's solve the problem of evil thread
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