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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > If God can change His mind can we really trust Him | Forum Quick Jump
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/12/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | [quote]Originally posted by borg
thanks tom, though i would be a bit hesitant to say that the proof is in this thread. go to a reformed thread or talk to any calvinist and they would find it absurd to find more comfort in a God who can change His mind. it just happens that the vast majority of people on this thread happen to hold the OV poition thus perfering the idea of a God who changes His mind.
question: do you think at all that the fact that God is contingent upon man's free will and free decisions make much out of man and in a way creates him as a sovereign? In politics in a democracy the sovereignty is shared among people, so it seems with the OV that in part God's soveriegnty is spread into His creatures thus creating much out of man.
Blessings,
Borg
Good morning Borg and Tom,
I've enjoyed reading the exchange between the two of you. I can't say that I "embraced" the classical view up until 2 years ago because I wasn't even aware of what it was I really believed or why - had never heard of the terms "classical" or "open," didn't know what a calvinist or "arminianist" were. I guess that shows just what a "greenhorn" I am here.
Borg....up until a couple of years ago I knew that I was "supposed" to pray as a believer, but now I feel an urgency to pray that I never had before, precisely because God can and does change His mind. To say that He can't, in effect, limits God. God is God and can do whatever He chooses. I now believe that He chose to create us with free will and that He responds to His creation out of this loving position. I don't believe His hands are "tied" because He gave us the gift of free will though. He is sovereign and I believe He will accomplish His purposes. It is our choice as individuals whether or not we will co-operate with Him, partner with Him, to see His purposes (overarching purposes) accomplished. Dr Boyd commented in one of His books (can't remember which one) that the Father "knows each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility."
Borg, I know this doesn't make sense to you, but in my mind that makes God sovereign. Knowing what will happen, and having a blueprint is one thing, but knowing each and every possibility and being able to respond as if it were the only possibility (God is never caught off guard) is, in my mind, sovereign beyond what we can comprehend. We only try to understand.
It always troubled me - the "test" that God gave Abraham (with almost sacrificing Isaac). Was it a real test? What did the Father mean when He said "Now I know..." ? I believe God knew Isaac very well, intimately - but the choice was still Abraham's. The Father had the sacrifice ready. I find the O.V. much more comforting. I find it comforting to know that my Father responds to His people, that people with free will can change their mind and a Father (whose character never changes) can change His mind in His response to them (Ninevah being a classic example).
I guess I was a Christian who held the classical view of God for 23 years without knowing what it was I was holding to. This view of God has dramatically changed how I live and walk as a believer. I see the Father as being creatively sovereign, all powerful, all good, all loving. I feel even more morally responsible than ever. I have spiritual "say so" but that doesn't mean I share His sovereignty. Obviously though He asked us to pray for a reason ("we battle not against flesh and blood ...", "the fervent prayer of a righteous man...") I believe those things and they make more sense to me now than ever.
Borg...I'm not trying to convince you of what I believe. I began tentatively with more questions than answers, but I do embrace this view now. I love how I see the Father in this view and how He responds to His creation. It does make sense out of "the problem of evil" for me. I choose to embrace this view with the knowledge that it is not the only view and I am still exploring and learning.
I also realize that the spirit in which we communicate what we learn about the Father is at least as important, if not more important, than our differences.
I look forward to hearing more from you Borg and from Tom and John and others. I'm thankful to be part of this.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
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| Posted 2/12/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne thanks for responding. I have a few follow up stuff and a question for you.
1) To say that God cannot change His mind does not limit God in a negative way for several reasons. a) God cannot do bad, does this mean that God is limited? Perhaps we wish we could have a God that could do bad so that He is not limited. But I won't say God's not being able to do bad is a limit, but a perfection of His attributes. So to with God not changing His mind. It doesn't limit Him but in a sense shows the perfection of His attributes. b) If God does all things according to His good pleasure, Eph 1:11, Job 42:2, Dan 5, then why would He ever want to change His mind?
2) I'm glad that you have been more able to come into a relationship with God through the OV, as I do not believe it is impossible, however I think that what perhaps led you into the OV could pertain to some misunderstandings about Calvinism. We are still morally responsible. We are free moral agents in that, we are 100% responsible for what our wills do. Because our wills are corrupt and we desire nothing but evil, Gen 6:5, Rom 3, 8, all we can truly "freely" do is evil. Either we are a slave to sin and the devil and bound to do his will 2 Tim 2:26, or we are bound by righteousness and the seal of the Spirit. If we do bad, it's not that God is forcing us against our will to do bad, because the bad we do, is all that we want to do. I don't believe Augustine ever denied "free will" he just stated that our wills are in bondage to either the good or the bad, and Edwards seemed to want to maintain some level of freedom but stated that our wills act on our desires and until we have been regnerated our desires are nothing but evil. If our desires are nothing but evil, then how can we of our "free will" desire that which is good? We cannot, unless our desires are first changed, and this is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. To say that our wills have not been in some way tainted by the fall, in my mind is to deny the seriousness of the fall, which in my mind can lead to the pride of man. Does this all make sense?
3) My question to you, is what is your defintion of free will and how does it work?
I'm enjoying the conversation very much, thank you. If you have any questions fire them my way.
Grace Alone, Word Alone, Faith Alone,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/15/2004 10:53 PM (GMT -6) | | {originally posted by Borg to geebob]
"please explain how God cannot forgive us if He cannot change His mind. I would say that God doesn't change His mind, and yet He can forgive us. There is no contradiction here. That is why Christ is so glorious. In God choosing to forgive the elect He sent Christ to bear our sins, because God cannot simply let sin go unpunished. All punishment that was directed at me, Christ took, God didn't change His mind, especially if Christ was predestined before the foundations of the world. Your argument doesn't make sense and I would like to hear more about it if you have the time."
(From Jo-Anne to Borg and anyone else who cares to listen in)
"So many threads, so little time!" Ok, so it's late and I'm being more funny than theo-logical. Au contraire (quite the contrary) Borg. Scripture is full of examples of God changing His mind. And I think the cross was about redeeming and restoring all creation (humanity included) to it's original glory. You hear a lot about original sin, not so much about original glory.
Was Christ predestined before the foundation of the world? We, as His bride, were foreknown (semitic term for foreloved). Didn't Jesus have a choice about the cross, and if He did, how was He predestined? Just as "He was tempted in all ways as we are" (which means it was real temptation and He could have chosen otherwise), the cross was a choice. He could have chosen otherwise, in fact I believe that Gethsemane was about that. What a battle at Gethsemane, but Jesus chose the cross. It makes me love Him all the more. "Oh, the wonderful cross, on which the Prince of Glory died. My richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride."
What a Saviour!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
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| Posted 2/15/2004 11:12 PM (GMT -6) | | (Borg...you asked:)
"3) My question to you, is what is your defintion of free will and how does it work?"
Hello Borg,
First of all, let me apologize for taking so long to answer. I hope that you will read this and respond. I am very open to what others have to say here and am eager to learn. I guess that makes me a disciple or maybe just a 
You asked what my definition of free will is and "how does it work?" Well (dodging bullets), I must (sheepishly) admit that I hadn't given it a whole lot of thought. Let's see. God created us with a desire for us to join him in the perfect community of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He didn't need us. He loves so much that He wanted to create and share that with His creation. In His infinite wisdom He knew that the only way that true loving community would be possible was to create human and other agents who could choose other than to love Him. Think about it. Love is never love if it is coercion. Love is given and received freely - or it is not love at all. It is something selfish. Love is not self-seeking and if God did not create us with the ability to choose not to love Him - we would have been created only to meet His needs.
J.R. Tolkein said, "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." We all live near one. He seeks to destroy us as well as creation. In fact, he's already doing that. Each time we choose "other," the enemy smiles a little broader. But, "choice by choice we affect eternity." We are joint heirs with Jesus. He desires that we choose Him and choose each day we live to be a disciple.
Free will works choice by choice. I do not believe that we are sovereign, although we will reign with Him. I believe that the Holy Spirit draws us and convicts us of sin, gifts us (empowering us to build up the body of Christ). I believe we were saved when we first chose to accept His gift of grace, that we are being saved now and that we will be saved. i believe we are living in eternity (He has set eternity in our hearts).
Free will. We have moral and spiritual "say so" as Doc says. Our spiritual "say so" is prayer and heaven help us if we don't use that.
Free will was a gift of love. You know the 'ol Hymn, "He said freely, freely, you have received, freely freely give. Go in my name and because you believed, others will know that I live." How else can we love as He loved - if not freely? Jesus chose the cross. He is the imprint of God and we are created in His image.
Thank God we have a choice.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
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| Posted 2/16/2004 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you Jo-Anne for your response, don't worry about taking time to respond. I hope that we all have lives other than this board and far be it for me to get mad about such a thing.
I would tend to follow along your paths of love and see things somewhat eye to eye with you, however, i think there is one important difference in that I believe the Bible strongly teaches that we are totally depraved, I have yet to hear any circumstantial evidence against this. And while being a Calvinist I would still hold that God desires us to love Him, but because we are Totally Depraved we cannot.
I guess I was a little off when I asked about your definition of "free will", i didn't explain myself adequatley, but I appreciate the response anyway. But i do not believe that we can have a total grasp of what free will is, and that is what I am questioning. For we do not know what it means to "freely choose" anything. Our will works in accordance to our desires, meaning that we choose the thing that we desire. We cannot choose something we don't desire, at least I don't see how that is a plausible idea. And if "those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit," Rom 8:5 then I do not see how a sinful (unregenerate) person can ever set their own minds (desires) on the things of the Spirit, for "those controled by the sinful nature CANNOT please God" Rom 8:8. (However one might object and say, "well that's why God has given all perenial grace so that they can choose to do good, and can choose to submit to God". Then I would ask why is this included in the Bible? Are we now saying that no one is controled by the sinful flesh? That's contrary to Scripture.) And yet we are to think that in our sinful unregenerate state, we can submit our wills, which are enslaved to Satan "captive to him to do his will" 2 Tim 2:26b. We cannot, for when we are in bondage to our sins, we don't desire anything from God! Only evil, wicked, God-hating things; cf. Gen 6:5, Rom 3:10, 11, 19(?), Matt 7:18.
And yet we are to think that this "free will" of ours has within it's own power to turn it's evil desires into good? I don't see how that holds with Scripture.
Fitting into the context of love, we cannot choose to love God, for all we desire is to love ourselves and hate God. If God were to leave salvation up to mankind, to let them save themselves by making a choice, we should all be damned for all eternity, for we should only desire the things contrary to the Spirit. That's where God's grace comes into effect in that He gives us a heart of flesh and takes away our heart of stone, Ez. 11:19, 36:26. For Salvation is from the Lord, Jh 4:2. Because we are in this awful state of wickedness and unregenerate, God must unveil our eyes, He must call us from the Tomb like Christ Jesus did to Lazarus. We must be quickened, regenerated before we can ever respond in faith to God. Therefore we cannot "choose" to love God until God so chooses to "unharden" our hearts with His grace to allow us to love Him. This "love" isn't coherced, it's not rudely forced unto us, rather it's His kindness being extended to us and His grace that we have no other choice, once being regnerated, but to love Him for what He has done. That's what is so amazing about Grace. it isn't an impersonal extension that we have the power to reject; but a beautiful display of God's goodness, mercy, and love towards us, that all we can is stand and praise Him!
So then what is evil? Perhaps this is an elementary question, but when we are coerced by the Devil to sin, is it truly sin? Or must sin be chosen freely?
That's all for now, I have to go to class in a bit. But i'm looking forward to hearing from you.
For Christ's Grace and Love,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/16/2004 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Borg,
Well, here goes (good thing I brought my snorkel). Hope some of it makes sense.
(Borg) "I believe the Bible strongly teaches that we are totally depraved, I have yet to hear any circumstantial evidence against this."
(me) Borg what do you mean by "totally depraved?"
(Borg) "For we do not know what it means to "freely choose" anything."
(me) Being created in His image, do you not see us as capable of love? I agree with you in this much, that when He draws us (John 14:6) and we choose Him, that it is only with the spirit that we are able to worship Him (with our lives) "in spirit and in truth."
(Borg) "Our will works in accordance to our desires, meaning that we choose the thing that we desire."
(me) We are drawn to Him by love (through His spirit). That is a powerful persuasive force, but not an irresistable one. The choice is still ours to make. If love is coerced - it really isn't love - but rather fear (I may be out on a limb here).
I agree with you on Romans 5:8. It is the spirit that draws us and from the moment we believe, the spirit equips us, empowers us and keeps us.
(Borg) "Are we now saying that no one is controled by the sinful flesh?" That's contrary to Scripture.)
(me) I can be controlled by my "sinful flesh" today if I choose to be. Paul said, "I die daily." It is a choice. (John 15:5 tells us that apart from Him we cannot bear fruit).
(Borg) "And yet we are to think that in our sinful unregenerate state, we can submit our wills, which are enslaved to Satan "captive to him to do his will" 2 Tim 2:26b."
(me) ... and yet scripture commands us to "bring every thought captive," "to be transformed by the renewing of our minds," to "set aside the sin that so easily besets us" ...
Question: Is this not submitting our wills?
(Borg) "And yet we are to think that this "free will" of ours has within it's own power to turn it's evil desires into good? I don't see how that holds with Scripture."
(me) I agree. We do not have power to turn evil desires into good ones. We do have choices however. And beyond those choices "it is He who works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure..."
(Borg) "Fitting into the context of love, we cannot choose to love God, for all we desire is to love ourselves and hate God."
(me) (1 John 4:7,8) We can choose to love each other but only if we first chose God. We cannot love Him until we choose Him.
(Borg) "If God were to leave salvation up to mankind, to let them save themselves by making a choice, we should all be damned for all eternity, for we should only desire the things contrary to the Spirit."
(me) I agree. We can't save ourselves. Salvation is the work of God. All we have to do is accept it (choose). He chose us (all of us) at Calvary (not just the ones who receive Him, but the ones who would later reject Him. I believe He loved us (before the foundation of the world - not as individuals...but as His bride).
(me) Amen to being quickened!
(Borg) "This "love" isn't coherced, it's not rudely forced unto us, rather it's His kindness being extended to us and His grace that we have no other choice, once being regnerated, but to love Him for what He has done."
(me) What does it mean to love someone if there is no choice? Jesus chose to go to Calvary. If He could not have chosen otherwise, what would that mean?
(Borg) "it isn't an impersonal extension that we have the power to reject; but a beautiful display of God's goodness, mercy, and love towards us, that all we can is stand and praise Him!"
(me) I agree...grace is personal. I disagree...we have the "power" to reject it. It is beautiful beyond belief, but not irresistable.
(Borg) "when we are coerced by the Devil to sin, is it truly sin? Or must sin be chosen freely?"
(me) This sounds like "the devil made me do it." The enemy is powerful, deceitful, and at times what he presents appears worthy, at least desireable --- but for every temptaiton "He has provided the way of escape."
(me) Grace is a choice.
Love is a choice.
Obedience is a choice.
Sin is a choice.
Evil may not be a choice because more is at play than free will.
Borg,
This was a challenge for me, but once again --- good for me to think these things through. And as oft the case, leaves me with more questions. Ever get the feeling that we agree on far more than we disagree and that often times it's terminology, sometimes splitting hairs, occasionally spanning a greater distance..."
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
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| Posted 2/16/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | 1) By Totally Depraved I mean that our wills have become so corrupted and fallen that we can no longer choose to do good. We are evil, wicked, corrupt; and until regeneration all we desire is evil. We CANNOT will good. (But we are not as evil as we could be in man's eyes).
2) We were once in the image of God, once able to love God. But when Adam and Eve chose to sin, our wills became corrupt and we could no longer will good for we were blind sinners walking around in our own filth not knowing it.
3) We are also told to "fear" God Heb 12, (The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" Proverbs. I believe that there can be a feared love between an individual and the beloved. God does not force us to love Him, He just reveals Himself to us in such a powerful way, and glorious way, that we have no other choice to love Him. And we should love God out of fear as well as His kindness.
Where do you read IN THE BIBLE that love must be chosen?
5) We cannot be "controled" by the sinful flesh. 1 John tells us if we are, we aren't truly saved. We do sin, we do fall, but we are not controled by sin. To die daily isn't a choice, but a command. "apart from Him we cannot bear fruit" and yet in our sinful unregenerate state we can bear fruit to repentence? That doesn't make sense.
6) 2 Tim 2:26 I don't get what you are getting at with that? Sorry, my ignorance. The Bible does teach that. But when we are enslaved in our sins, unregenerate, we cannot do those things. Once the Holy Spirit moves in with it's power, and we become saved, then we are able to do those things with the grace of God. We cannot submit our wills UNTIL we have been saved. Regeneration PRECEDES faith. Salvation comes before we can do anything good, including submitting out wills.
7) The only choices we have in the unregnerate state are choices between evil. We cannot will good. And interesting that you should pick that verse, makes salvation sound as though it's God's willing it, not us in any way.
8) 1 Jn 4:7, 8 never leaves up to us to "choose" God, that's nowhere in the verse. I'm interested to see where that notion comes from. For the only way we know what love is, is because God first loved us, 4:10. 1 John isn't written to people who are in bondage (unsaved) to their sins but to John's "little Childern" ch. 2. He is commanding saved people to love, and the only way they can love, is through the Holy Spirit, no willing of their own.
9) Where in the Gospels or Acts, save John 3:16 does it ever say that Jesus loved the whole world, universally, and came to die for everyone? Jesus' will as laid out in John 6 is that He should lose none that the Father has given Him. Does this mean if the Father has given Him "all" that Christ has failed? John 15:10ff tells us that Christ came to lay His life down for His sheep. Matthew 1 says that Christ came to lay His life down for His people. Matt 20:28 says that Christ came to give His life as a ransom for MANY, not all. If Christ extended salvation to everyone, and "all" we had to do was "accept" it, than my final salvation is upon shoulders. Why did I "choose" Christ and John Doe didn't? Is it because God extended more grace to me? You would say, "No". Is it because God favored me more? You would say, "No". Is it because God loved me more? You would say, "No". Then what is it? It comes back to me and in some form or another my own righteousness. Yet if I'm saved because of my own righteousness, does that not mean I then have rights to brag about my salvation? This is contrary to Eph 2:8, 9. We cannot boast in our salvation, because it was nothing that we did, including "accepting" that bought me this salvation. It was solely the work of God, and Christ gives eternal life to as many as He pleases.
10) Why must love take on a form of "choice" especially when we humans, being Totally Depraved cannot "choose" rightly to love God? If it were all on choice, no one would love God. Therefore He had to illuminate our hearts and sweep us up with such grace that we could nothing but love with thankfulness. We only love Him, because He first loved us and sent His Son to save us from our sins. Only those who are already saved, can love God, and even then, we do a pretty horrible job at loving Him. If true love entails choice, then doesn't it also require committment? How often are we comitted to loving God? Our actions more often then not show us as not loving God, for if we loved God we would keep His commands and how often do we go even 10 mins obeying His commands? We don't. So true love entails a true choice, but not sold out 100% commitment? I don't think we as finite, sinful, human-beings even understand what true love is. Could Christ really have sinned when tempted by Satan? Hypothetically yes, but in truth no. I don't think Christ could have sinned, because if He had, then He would have no longer been God, for God by His perfect nature, is not a God who can sin. Could Christ have chosen someting other than the cross? Hypothetically yes, in reality no. Lest God be made out to be a liar and the Scriptures broken. And yet though Christ died for our sins, He did joyfully, knowing that He was redeeming the elect. His blood was required for atonement of sin. To say Christ could have got up and walked away from the cross is to deny prophesy in Scripture and to take a gamble and just brush the sweat off your brow and say, "wow, glad Christ did decide to go to calvary" still amounts Christ's work with some amount of possible failure, and that is something i am unwilling to accept. Does that clear it up at all?
11) When someone revives you from Death through CPR or other means, do you have a choice to reject that life that they have given you? Did Lazarus, when in the tomb, have the power to tell Christ "no don't raise me up again?" If we are truly "dead in our sins and transgressions" and yet Christ makes us alive, Eph 2, where is the power to tell God we don't want to be revived? Especially if we're DEAD! There is none. We're not all sitting upright in a semi-concious state at the bottom of our sins with God offering us oxygen before we die and we can say, "No." Lazarus wasn't in a semi-concious state when Christ called Him to life again. Nay, we were DEAD. The Bible doesn't say otherwise.
12) So you would say that we can sin, even if coherced; and yet not love if we are coherced? Hmmm... let me think about this one. Feel free to write back more if you want to.
13) Sin is a choice, yes. And we are bound by that "choice" in that all we can do is sin, until we are regenerated. Grace is not a choice, for it is grace that saves us from death, as explained above. Obedience is a choice, but the only way that we can keep the commandments is when God has restored our wills with His grace; after we have been saved.
Jo-Anne I am enjoying this conversation very much. You're doing good and I can see where your thinking is coming from. If you don't feel like responding to this email, I pose another question, if you don't mind. What is your view of Reformed Faith (Calvinism) and why don't you agree with T.U.L.I.P. The way I see it, is that many people have a distorted view of Calvinism, and yet I cannot begin to explain the joy it has given me, the glory of God I have seen in it, the grace that has gripped me like never before, and my only desire, is by God's grace; to share with others the magnificent, glorious, doctrine of Calvinism. So please, feel free to keep the lines of communication open, and i look forward to further dialogues.
Blessings,
Borg
p.s. who knows, we may agree on more than either one of might have thought.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/16/2004 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
1) By Totally Depraved I mean that our wills have become so corrupted and fallen that we can no longer choose to do good. We are evil, wicked, corrupt; and until regeneration all we desire is evil. We CANNOT will good. (But we are not as evil as we could be in man's eyes).
(ME) Borg, perhaps I am still not understanding. I know some (not many, but some) unbelievers who put believers to shame in the "goodness department"
(BORG) "we have no other choice to love Him. And we should love God out of fear as well as His kindness."
(ME) Borg, if we have no other choice than to love Him, that doesn't sound like real love...it sounds like coercion?
(BORG) "Where do you read IN THE BIBLE that love must be chosen?"
(ME) Throughout scripture people choose. Our salvation is dependent on our choice. If love is not chosen, it is coersion.
(Borg) To die daily isn't a choice, but a command. "apart from Him we cannot bear fruit" and yet in our sinful unregenerate state we can bear fruit to repentence? That doesn't make sense."
(ME) Paul said, "I die daily." It wasn't a command. It was a statement. He was declaring his own personal choice day by day to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. That is what we must do. We are saved by Grace through faith. It's a free gift (Ephesians 10). I wouldn't say we do any "fruit bearing" until we are grafted into the True Vine.
(BORG) "We cannot submit our wills UNTIL we have been saved. Regeneration PRECEDES faith. Salvation comes before we can do anything good, including submitting out wills."
(ME) I'm not sure where the confusion lies either. I agree with this. But salvation still requires us to choose. Submission is something that comes with relationship (after salvation).
(Borg) For the only way we know what love is, is because God first loved us, 4:10.
(ME) I agree. We can not love like the saved until we're saved. However there are some lovely and loving people who are not saved. Not the same quality of love, but some tremendous acts of love that we would do well to sit up and take notice. Sometimes they put us to shame.
Borg, I understand that the "Beloved, let us love one another...is written to the saved.
(BORG) "9) Where in the Gospels or Acts, save John 3:16 does it ever say that Jesus loved the whole world, universally, and came to die for everyone?"
(ME) "For God so loved the world..." "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." The amazing thing (well one of the amazing things) about the love of God is that He willed that none should perish but all should come..." The invitation has been given to all..."Go ye therefore into all the world..." The reason that some are "given to the Father" is because those who are given have responded to the Father's invitation. I could go on but it would just sound like I'm trying to superimpose my belief about this on you and that is not the point. But this is what I believe.
(BORG) Jesus' will as laid out in John 6 is that He should lose none that the Father has given Him. Does this mean if the Father has given Him "all" that Christ has failed?
(ME) Christ did not fail. God took a risk (one worth taking, in giving us the freedom to love, to freely choose Him or reject Him). "Greater love hath no man than that He lay down His life for His friend." How could that be failing?
(Borg) Why did I "choose" Christ and John Doe didn't?
(ME) Someone prayed? You chose and John Doe chose.
(BORG) Then what is it? It comes back to me and in some form or another my own righteousness.
(ME) All my righteousness is as filthy rags. He has put His robe of righteousness upon my shoulders. So, what would I boast in but Him?
(BORG) If true love entails choice, then doesn't it also require committment?
(ME) Absolutely! But we are human beings having a spiritual experience. I think that's why the were saved, are saved, will be saved thing comes into play. It's a journey. And He is committed to us far more than we are committed to Him. We fall. He picks us up, dusts us off and gives us a job to do (love). I love how He restores Peter after He denies Him. What a wonderful example of how we are to love believers who stumble and fall.
(BORG) Could Christ really have sinned when tempted by Satan?
(ME) If Jesus could not have chosen otherwise, what was Satan doing tempting him and how was that temptation? "He was tempted in every way as we are." And what would it mean to us? The Father understands what the battle entails. He has provided the way to victory. That doesn't mean we won't be battle scared, but ultimately we know who wins. Amen.
(Borg) "to take a gamble and just brush the sweat off your brow and say, "wow, glad Christ did decide to go to calvary" still amounts Christ's work with some amount of possible failure, and that is something i am unwilling to accept.
(ME) "Greater love hath no man than this, that He LAY DOWN His life..." If He didn't lay it down...it wasn't the love that we thought it was.
(BORG) "11) When someone revives you from Death through CPR or other means, do you have a choice to reject that life that they have given you? Did Lazarus, when in the tomb, have the power to tell Christ "no don't raise me up again?"
(ME) Forgive me Borg, but I believe this is what is referred to as a moote point? If we're dead, we don't have a choice. Lazarus was not in a position to choose. He was "mummified" if you know what I mean. But it sounds like he was pretty happy when he came out.
12) So you would say that we can sin, even if coherced; and yet not love if we are coherced? Hmmm... let me think about this one. Feel free to write back more if you want to.
(ME) YES, we can sin whether coerced or not and we can choose to love but human experience tells us that love is not forced. It is freely given. That is the Father's love and the kind of love that we are to have for one another. We can "act" in a loving manner without really loving someone. But that's not the kind of relationship the Father wants with us. He wants a "sacred romance."
(BORG) "13) Sin is a choice, yes."
(ME) even after regeneration
(BORG) "Grace is not a choice, for it is grace that saves us from death"
(ME) Receiving grace is a choice, not grace itself.
(BORG) Obedience is a choice, but the only way that we can keep the commandments is when God has restored our wills with His grace; after we have been saved.
(ME) Pretty tough even then, but we have the spirit to empower us if we choose to listen and follow. Thankfully Jesus condensed the commandments for us into loving Him and loving others (that should keep us busy enough)!
Thanks Borg and God bless you,
Jo-Anne
(BORG) "Jo-Anne I am enjoying this conversation very much. You're doing good and I can see where your thinking is coming from. If you don't feel like responding to this email, I pose another question, if you don't mind. What is your view of Reformed Faith (Calvinism) and why don't you agree with T.U.L.I.P. The way I see it, is that many people have a distorted view of Calvinism, and yet I cannot begin to explain the joy it has given me, the glory of God I have seen in it, the grace that has gripped me like never before, and my only desire, is by God's grace; to share with others the magnificent, glorious, doctrine of Calvinism. So please, feel free to keep the lines of communication open, and i look forward to further dialogues.
Blessings,
Borg
p.s. who knows, we may agree on more than either one of might have thought."
(ME) We may indeed agree on more than either one of us might think. People often have a distorted view of things they don't understand and we should be careful not to judge each other. I am so glad that you are full of joy and that His grace has gripped you "like never before."
My desire Borg is to know Him and make Him known (by loving others).
Thanks Borg and blessings,
Jo-Anne (whew...got through it!)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/16/2004 8:04 PM (GMT -6) | | 1) Goodness in whose eyes? the worlds? so, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags." If we do not do "good" things with the sole purpose of glorifying God, then we are sinning. Therefore all the sinners "good deeds" amount to NOTHING because they do it for selfish ambition, personal gain, pride, or some other sin. Apart from God there is NO good. The sinful soul CANNOT please God. Totally Depraved refers more to our own soul contributing something to our salvation in that we cannot.
2)The coercion thing I'm not quite sure about. Just because you are coerced to love your parents as a young child for the food they give you, the shelter, etc., does not mean it's not real love. Just as one can truly sin even if coerced by the devil; blame doesn't stop, so it works vice versa with love. However, the unregenerate person will never love God, for they are not able to. If love has to be chosen in order for it to be real, does God have to choose to love us? or could He hate us?
3) Scripture please if you don't mind.
4) we graft ourselves into the true vine? does Romans 11 back that idea? once we have bewen quickened by the Spirit, we can choose to do good or evil, for it is then that our souls have been once again given the grace to do so.
5) If submission is something that comes after we have been saved, not before, then you are saying the only way that we can be saved is if Christ saves us, or if He chooses us and gives us the grace to submit. That's not an open theist stance. they would say that faith precedes regeneration, i would say regeneration precedes faith.
6) Perhaps in a worldly sense they put us to shame. But God would rather delight in the works of His saints than the pagans. And we're here not to impress man, but to work for God's glory.
7) I said save John 3:16 because I believe through a more careful reading and understanding, that's not talking about Christ dying for everyone. The other verse you pointed out is Rom 5:8, and the letters bring in a whole new way of interpruting scripture i believe. The promises contained in them are not for non-believers but for the saved. 2 Peter 3:9, "the Lord is not slack towards us willing that none should perish but that all should come to repentence." the "us" stands for the reciepentents of the letter of 2 Peter and teh all ties back, with greek syntax, to the idea of the "us-ward" or the saints. therefore God doesn't want His elect to perish so He endures this evil world with longsuffering until the fullness of the Gentiles might be brought in. Yes, "many are called" or invited, "but few are chosen" Matt 13? (can't remember right now).
10)"then to lay down one's life for His friends." who are Christ's friends? those who keep His commandments, as He states. Therefore are we to assume Christ only laid down His life for those who keep His commands? John 6 clearly tells us that the will of the Father is that all that He has given Him should not perish. if you interprut 2 Pe 3:9 in your idea, God wills that none should perish. If my goal is to save everyone who is sinking on a ship, and i only save 85% of them, I have failed at my goal. Christ's goal is nowhere stated in Scripture that it was to merely lay His life down for a friend, but to save! His death wasn't merely a bridge to salvation, it was salvation.
11) Why did I choose? Why did I respond differently?
12) We boast because it was our decision to be saved. But you're right Christ came while we were still blind and lost in our sins and clothed us and declared us holy in His sight, and saved us, not based on anything I did, for all i could bring Him were my sins and corrupted will, and even then, I wanted to keep them because of my own wickedness.
13) Well I'm a pretty crappy lover. If it was all based on my choice, then I'd be slapping God in the face continually. I have no commitment to Him 99.99% of the time. True love doesn't bring with it affairs into the sinful state does it? true love is greater than that. It is 100% commitment, and without that, then we dont' have love.
14) pssh, yeah Jesus was tempted in every way we are, and yet by the definition of "Perfect God" He cannot sin. beyond me. Kind of like who died on the cross? God can't really die, so who was it?
15) You lost me on the Lazarus thing. How can a dead man choose to live?
16) yes after regeneration, it is then that we have the will to choose good or bad.
17) condensed the commandments, no He didn't. For the whole of the law is contained within those two commandments. Keep us busy? we still can't live up to them and we never will.
Blessings,
Borg
What is your view of T.U.L.I.P. Calvinism?
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/16/2004 9:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg,
Thanks for your reply. As you know, this is a challenge for me and takes quite a bit of time and thought and energy. So, I'll work on it tomorrow. I have to tear myself away. I think that we do agree on much more than either you or I realize, for in the short time that I have read your posts and replied to them - I see that many of the things I'm saying are misunderstood and I realize that I may not be communicating clearly enough. I very much enjoy the honest dialogue. I need to be challenged in my thinking and in my faith.
I am somewhat familiar with the basic tenets of calvinism...just from what I have read in "God of the Possible" and "Flame of Love" and other books like that. To be honest Borg, before a couple of years ago I couldn't have discussed anything on a board like this. I had no idea about calvinism or arminianism or the Open View. My view of the Father has radically changed how I see Him and how I live my life as a believer. I now have a passionate relationship with Jesus Christ. He is amazing, His changeable faithfulness, His creative sovereignty and extravagant love for people blows me away.
Tomorrow - another day, another challenge. I'll get back to you on this.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/17/2004 9:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Hello Borg,
Hope this covers some of it.
[quote]Originally posted by borg
(BORG) The coercion thing I'm not quite sure about. Just because you are coerced to love your parents as a young child for the food they give you, the shelter, etc., does not mean it's not real love. Just as one can truly sin even if coerced by the devil; blame doesn't stop, so it works vice versa with love. However, the unregenerate person will never love God, for they are not able to. If love has to be chosen in order for it to be real, does God have to choose to love us? or could He hate us?
(ME) Little children learn to love (or hate, or fear). Trust is a basic building block and coercion does not build trust...it builds fear and anger. God's character is love, so no..He couldn't hate us.
(Borg) Scripture please if you don't mind.
(ME) Nowhere in scripture does it describe salvation as being for an elect "few" He died for all.
(BORG) we graft ourselves into the true vine?
(ME) The H.S. grafts us into the true vine (JESUS)
(BORG) If submission is something that comes after we have been saved, not before, then you are saying the only way that we can be saved is if Christ saves us, or if He chooses us and gives us the grace to submit. That's not an open theist stance.
(ME) The Father chose each one of us - now it is up to us to choose Him and we must choose to follow Him ("I die daily") each day of our lives.
(BORG) Perhaps in a worldly sense they put us to shame. But God would rather delight in the works of His saints than the pagans. And we're here not to impress man, but to work for God's glory.
(ME) The Father delights in truth and so should we and He is pleased when we love Him and love others. That sums up the commandments.
(BORG) "then to lay down one's life for His friends." who are Christ's friends? those who keep His commandments, as He states.
(ME) He died for all. It is not His will that any should perish or HE wouldn't be all good and all loving.
(Borg) "If my goal is to save everyone who is sinking on a ship, and i only save 85% of them, I have failed at my goal."
(ME) The victory was won in principle at the cross. It was an act of war and Jesus was victorious over satan, over sin and death and hell (One day this victory shall be final and he'll claim His bride.
(BORG) Christ's goal is nowhere stated in Scripture that it was to merely lay His life down for a friend, but to save! His death wasn't merely a bridge to salvation, it was salvation.
(ME) Agreed. Not even a doubt - as long as we believe and receive.
(BORG) You lost me on the Lazarus thing. How can a dead man choose to live?
(ME) That's what I was saying. He can't. But we (who were dead in sin) can.
(BORG) condensed the commandments, no He didn't.
(ME) Perhaps what He did was simplify it so that we would know what is most important.
Blessings,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 2/18/2004 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
1) Goodness in whose eyes? the worlds? so, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags." If we do not do "good" things with the sole purpose of glorifying God, then we are sinning. Therefore all the sinners "good deeds" amount to NOTHING because they do it for selfish ambition, personal gain, pride, or some other sin. Apart from God there is NO good. The sinful soul CANNOT please God. Totally Depraved refers more to our own soul contributing something to our salvation in that we cannot.
So borg, according to "Total Depravity", you are a totally depraved person, correct?
Or does some spirit witness to you that you aren't totally depraved anymore?
Why would you believe a spirit that your total depravity could have vainly conjured up?
You read some words in a book written by other totally depraved people?
If every thing you do is sin and comes from your total depravity, what makes you think you've broken out of that total depravity?
If a totally depraved person tells you all people are totally depraved, can you believe him?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/18/2004 9:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Well, I guess in a way you are right, it is not the changing of the mind but the character of God which is the concern. Sorry to see Job was brought up, my nemesis keeps haunting me. Most people will say that God's character is pure love for his people. Yet He was the one who called attention to Job and used Job to prove a point to satan. He hardened Pharoah's heart at the end, did not keep trying to change it, He seemed to get carried away smiting people for offenses to Him - key one was the opening of the ark. Some of his corretions seem rather arbitrary. Uzzah a non Levite reaches out to steady an ark, and is slain, yet David, a non-Levite picks up the ark and puts it in a threshing floor and is not smitten. Some of His corrections seem very cruel to the people around the person being punished. For example the plague that was sent in response to David's sin of numbering the people. Why not just punish David, why take it out on those around David. These are a few examples that come to mind.
And if God is limited in His knowledge, where is the safety factor. It is hard to say "all things come together for good" unless you really believe that God is in control. The way this reads, really the people are in control and that is scary.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 2/19/2004 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by wondering04
And if God is limited in His knowledge, where is the safety factor. It is hard to say "all things come together for good" unless you really believe that God is in control. The way this reads, really the people are in control and that is scary.
Well, I don't think any of us would say God is limited in his knowledge (except I don't think God can know a circular square, that sort of thing). I simply say that God knows possibilities as possibilities and actualities as actualities. It's not that he doesn't know stuff, it's more that he knows it as what it is, which could be open.
And don't forget God knows all possibilities intimately because he created all possibilities. Wherever you go, whatever you actualize, God is there and waiting for you. I like that because it gives new life to the idea that no matter how many wrong roads you go down, you're never too far from God to turn back and find him.
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