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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/9/2004 1:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | I keep having the troubling thought that if God can change His mind about little things what is to keep Him from changing his mind about big things like salvation, agape love, involvement with the Earth.
I still am troubled about OT view, because I don't think our intellect is a match for God. That we might be limiting God by trying to explain away inconsistencies. That maybe there is a level far and above what we can conceive where free will and determinism can meet.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/9/2004 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello wondering,
Ask that same question (i.e., can God be trusted if He can change His mind) about yourself. If you do this with most any question (no, not all, but a lot of them) by making yourself the object of the question, you will find amazing things:
Question: Can God be trusted because He can change His mind?
Answer: Can I be trusted because I can change my mind?
If you believe cold-blooded murder (murdering just to murder) is wrong, can you be trusted to not murder because you are able to change your mind? If you have children, can you be trusted to always love or take care of them just because you can change your mind? Can you be trusted with your love toward your spouse because you can change your mind? You might say, "Ah, but what if I find that I don't love my spouse anymore?" Well, that can happen, but that will not happen simply because you possess the faculty of being able to change your mind; it's because of numerous other issues, issues to which God is not subject.
Being able to change one's mind has nothing to do with whether one can be trusted. Heavens, we put our trust in sinful man all the time, believing that he can be trusted, though he possess the ability to change his mind. We testify in our daily lives, as in the examples I gave above, that a person's ability to change his mind is not the criterion for one not to be trusted; rather, it is something else: sin, screwed up character, darkness, hatred, self-centeredness, selfishness ... traits which God neither possesses nor ever will.
It is God's character and essence which are rock-solid, and they will never change. They are not, however, so solid in our lives. God changing His mind is only in contexts that never violate His holiness, righteousnes, character and essence. He will always be who He is.
Finally, being able to change one's mind is simply to say I thought to do this but I'm going to do that instead. It means that some of the future is open, that's all. It has nothing to do with God (or mankind) not able to be trusted. That's character that makes that happen, and God's character is ... unchanging!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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rossfadeinout
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 2/9/2004 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman said quote:
It is God's character and essence which are rock-solid, and they will never change. They are not, however, so solid in our lives. God changing His mind is only in contexts that never violate His holiness, righteousnes, character and essence. He will always be who He is.
Finally, being able to change one's mind is simply to say I thought to do this but I'm going to do that instead. It means that some of the future is open, that's all. It has nothing to do with God (or mankind) not able to be trusted. That's character that makes that happen, and God's character is ... unchanging!
Amen! I think that if we keep the idea in mind that God has infinite intelligence, then we really shouldn't say that God changes his mind, as if he intended to do one thing and then decided to do another. God changes in response to human free choices. (example,Because Israel insisted on a king he gave them one)
God does not get confused; he doesn't have a lack of knowledge, he knows EVERY POSSIBILITY (thats omniscience  )
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/9/2004 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika, you say that adaption is a trait that people favor, and that those who say God doesn't change His mind, are bounding God. But do we say that because God cannot do evil that He is limited? And do we view this as a bad thing? No. And so i wouldn't necesarily say that those who hold to God's immutability in the sense that He doesn't change His mind is a bad thing.
Also what do you think of 1 Sam 15:29 where it says, "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." Is this a declaration of God's immutability?
Regarding the king argument, if Israel had never wanted a human king, from whom would Jesus have descended from? We would no longer have the view of Jesus descending from the line of David. Unless one would hold that it was impossible for Israel to remain close to God and God had determined that Israel would fall away and become hardened, and using the earthly rule of men to establish hardness, so that the "fullness of Gentiles may be grafted in."
And about God reverting to plan B with Moses, you said, "this probably wasn't best" or something to that extent. What do you make of "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" Isa 46:10.
Blessings,
Borg
"The only man who has the right to say that he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ"
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 2/9/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Laika, you say that adaption is a trait that people favor, and that those who say God doesn't change His mind, are bounding God.
Yeah, when you deny God any personality traits, He's more an "it" than the personal God portrayed in scripture.
quote:
But do we say that because God cannot do evil that He is limited?
Being "adaptable" is a good trait. Is being "evil" a good trait?
I think God is "good" and "adaptable/flexible".
You think God is "inflexible", "good" and "bad". See the difference?
quote:
Also what do you think of 1 Sam 15:29 where it says, "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." Is this a declaration of God's immutability?
Ah, the out-of-context quotation. Here's the context:
28 So Samuel said to him[Saul], "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to your neighbor[David], who is better than you.
29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
God will not change His mind regarding taking the kingdom away from Saul. Borg, if God NEVER changed His mind, why would Samuel even have to spell that out in this situation? hmmmmmm?
quote:
Regarding the king argument, if Israel had never wanted a human king, from whom would Jesus have descended from?
If God had been king instead, would Jesus have been the son of a king?
quote:
And about God reverting to plan B with Moses, you said, "this probably wasn't best" or something to that extent. What do you make of "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" Isa 46:10.
He got the job done even with Aaron as spokesman. But look at the trouble Aaron caused in the desert!
Lucky for me God didn't say "I will accomplish all my BEST pleasure."
"nor did it ever enter My mind" -- God
Jeremiah 7:31; 19:5; 32:35
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/9/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by wondering04
I keep having the troubling thought that if God can change His mind about little things what is to keep Him from changing his mind about big things like salvation, agape love, involvement with the Earth.
I still am troubled about OT view, because I don't think our intellect is a match for God. That we might be limiting God by trying to explain away inconsistencies. That maybe there is a level far and above what we can conceive where free will and determinism can meet.
Heather
Hey there Heather!
The reason I can trust God to not change his mind about loving me even though he changes his mind about smaller things is the same reason my kids can trust me not to change my mind about loving them even though they see me change my mind about smaller things--character. God gives us every reason to believe he responds to changing situations and every reason to believe he doesn't love us one day and not the next.
Our intellect is no match for God, but it doesn't take a great intellect to understand that one can change in some respects (like the small things) and remain unchanging in others (like love).
Be encouraged! God loves you so very much!
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/9/2004 6:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Laika for your response. I have some follow up questions for you.
1) Why is adapting considered a "good" trait? Adapt can also mean conform and yet conforming is not viewed as a "good" trait. When are we ever comissioned to conform to the world? Where are we told to conform the Word of God, or for that matter, adapt the Word of God to the likings of the people? Some adaptation/conforming is clearly spoken against in the Bible. As a matter of fact I cannot think of a single time when we are ever told to adapt to anything besides Christ, can you help me here?
2) We are not making an "it" out of God. That is a well misunderstood idea that Calvinism in some way depersonalizes God. "In love having predestined us..." God is still a being that relates to His creatures, it's not a type of Deism.
3) The Samuel verse I feel you have still failed to prove your point. Why did Samuel answer the question? For the simple reason that "all Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, CORRECTING..." If God so chose to reveal through Samuel that He doesn't change His mind to teach people, so He would. And if you want to ask why these questions are raised, then how would you address Romans 9? If it is to be interpruted the way the Arminian and Open Theist would want, why does Paul even ask, "So is there injustice with God?" or "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" If taken in the way you would hold, these questions would NEVER have been raised, for there would clearly be in injustice and man does resist God's will.
4) Of course Christ was born a king regardless of whether or not Joe was. But you missed my point. On the one side you have a family traced as the High Priest setting Jesus as a Priest of the line of Aaron and in another He is traced HUMANLY as a king and heir to the throne. Two huge declarations of who Jesus was. Would this have lost it's meaning?
5) Your idea on Isa 46:10 is pretty weak and sounds like you want to avoid what it clearly says. "I will do all my good pleasure." have you ever had a "good pleasure" that you didn't believe to be your "best pleasure"? I think we would both have to answer plainly "no", lest my ignorance proceeds me on this point.
6) The Jeremiah verses you cited, hmm, what does that do to the OV's ideas that God knows all POSSIBLE outcomes? Those verses do not raise problems for the Calvinist only but if taken in the context you desire, attacks God's omniscence.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/9/2004 7:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Scripture unabiguously staes "God changed His mind."
Systematic theology MUST begin with the Scripture and not work around it as an after thought. This was Augustine's and Calvin's error. When systematic theology begins with what man thinks God ought to be over and against what Scripture says, you get a God who creates little babies and sends them to eternal hell as infants because they were not sprinkled.
The question we must deal with is, "SINCE God changes His mind" (as stated in Scripture) what does that tell me about how God operates, how He relates to the world, and what the world is like that necessitates that God must declare that He changes his mind in dealing with it?
So, "If God changes His mind" is not the question. THAT GOD CHANGES HIS MIND is the emphatic statement of Scripture. I believe your real question is that within the context of a God who does in fact change His mind about some things, "What assurance do I have that He will not change His mind regarding salvation, agape love, etc.?"
Those issues address character which is the aspect of the Godhead that God declares elsewhere will not change. So, just because God changes a method of accomplishing a task doesn't mean He may suddenly decide to become immoral. There is no necessary reason to confuse metaphysics and charater. Remember, He has been practicing benevolence from all eternity. Simply math is guarantee enough that eternity past is the only thing that will equate with eternity future regarding God's character. So, we can have our cake and eat it too.
To God alone be the glory
John | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/9/2004 9:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Tom, thanks for your post, quick question, where do you draw the line between "small things" and "large things"? Is one God's characteristics and the other not? Can you clarify that a bit? Thanks.
By Grace Alone,
Borg
Hi Borg-
I think we can draw the line where Scripture draws it. As John point out, Scipture unambiguously states that God changes his mind. It also unambiguously states that he loves us and gave Jesus for us to demonstrate his love.
What I can't understand is the question. Why would we wonder whether or not God will love us simply because he changes his mind about some things? We as parents change our minds about many things. Yet our children still trust that we'll love them. Our children change their minds about many things. Yet neither do we doubt they love us nor do they believe their love is in question. Our spouses change their minds about many things yet we don't on this account doubt their love. I'm questioning the question of this thread. On what basis are we justified in questioning God's love simply because he changes his mind sometimes when there is so much in our everyday life that demonstrates we're perfectly capable of trusting those who love us and change their minds about many things?
Is there anybody out there on this board who ONLY trusts the love of those incapable of changing their minds about anything? I can answer that. The answer is: No, there's no such person.
So why are we asking this question? I think we're asking it because we were brought up in the classical view. We were taught to trust God DIFFERENTLY than we trust any other person we trust. We were taught to trust THE CLASSICAL GOD and the classical God is lodged in our brains. It's hard to let go.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/9/2004 9:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
quote:
Originally posted by borg
Tom, thanks for your post, quick question, where do you draw the line between "small things" and "large things"? Is one God's characteristics and the other not? Can you clarify that a bit? Thanks.
By Grace Alone,
Borg
Hi Borg-
I think we can draw the line where Scripture draws it. As John point out, Scipture unambiguously states that God changes his mind. It also unambiguously states that he loves us and gave Jesus for us to demonstrate his love.
What I can't understand is the question. Why would we wonder whether or not God will love us simply because he changes his mind about some things? We as parents change our minds about many things. Yet our children still trust that we'll love them. Our children change their minds about many things. Yet neither do we doubt they love us nor do they believe their love is in question. Our spouses change their minds about many things yet we don't on this account doubt their love. I'm questioning the question of this thread. On what basis are we justified in questioning God's love simply because he changes his mind sometimes when there is so much in our everyday life that demonstrates we're perfectly capable of trusting those who love us and change their minds about some things?
Is there anybody out there on this board who ONLY trusts the love of those incapable of changing their minds about anything? I can answer that. The answer is: No, there's no such person.
So why are we asking this question? I think we're asking it because we were brought up in the classical view. We were taught to trust God DIFFERENTLY than we trust any other person we trust. We were taught to trust THE CLASSICAL GOD and the classical God is lodged in our brains. It's hard to let go.
Tom
Hi Everyone,
"Jumping on this train of thought." I praise the unchangeable God for His "changeable faithfulness." Unchangeable in character. Ever changing in His response to His creation. In my mind that makes Him more glorious, more sovereign and more loving that I could have imagined Him to be. Throughout scripture God changed His mind. At Ninevah God relented when the people began to respond to Him. (Jonah looked a bit foolish and was a bit miffed but praise God). If we didn't truly believe that God could change His mind, why would we plead with Him in prayer? If we believed that everything would happen according to a divine blueprint - then what good would our prayers be? He does respond to His people when they humble themselves and pray, when they seek Him. Scripture is full of that. Jesus was moved to respond to people as He encountered them, as they encountered Him. He responded. God responds.
Hope I haven't missed the boat here (or was that a whale?) "Ninevah" needs me! Anyway,whatever God has to use to get me to respond!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/10/2004 2:31 AM (GMT -6) | |
Question: Can God be trusted because He can change His mind?
Answer: Can I be trusted because I can change my mind?
Actually humans can only be trusted so far. If we are all honesst we would admit that we cannot be trusted in all things. And if God is changeable, the question is in what areas can God be trusted? In what areas can he change.
I would hate to think that we put limits on God with our intellect and then later find out that there is a simple solution beyond anything we ever could dream up. In science there are paradigms formed, and often these are changed as we receive new information. I guess my question about Boyd's book is that he is forming a paradigm based on what we know now, but do we know everything enough to make such conclusions?
"It is God's character and essence which are rock-solid, and they will never change. They are not, however, so solid in our lives. God changing His mind is only in contexts that never violate His holiness, righteousnes, character and essence. He will always be who He is."
But based on Boyd's book, how can we know that God's character and essence are rock solid? Could He not change His mind about what His character and essence is? We are, if we follow through logically, deciding with our intellect what is rock solid and what isn't. What if we are deciding wrongly that something is rock solid? What if it isn't so rock solid?
"Finally, being able to change one's mind is simply to say I thought to do this but I'm going to do that instead. It means that some of the future is open, that's all. It has nothing to do with God (or mankind) not able to be trusted. That's character that makes that happen, and God's character is ... unchanging!"
So God could say, I thought to save all of humanity, but now I think I will only save some instead. I thought to keep the earth around, so now I think it all needs to be destroyed. I thought gravity was a good idea, but now I think it isn't. what can we really rely on?
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wondering04
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/10/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | |
"Our intellect is no match for God, but it doesn't take a great intellect to understand that one can change in some respects (like the small things) and remain unchanging in others (like love)."
Dear Tom, I sure hope you are right.
Heather
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/10/2004 5:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey there, wondering ...
quote:
Actually humans can only be trusted so far. If we are all honesst we would admit that we cannot be trusted in all things. And if God is changeable, the question is in what areas can God be trusted? In what areas can he change.
That's why I said what I said right after I said the above: You might say, "Ah, but what if I find that I don't love my spouse anymore?" Well, that can happen, but that will not happen simply because you possess the faculty of being able to change your mind; it's because of numerous other issues, issues to which God is not subject.
That we cannot be trusted in all things is true; that we cannot be trusted because we possess the capability to change our minds is not true. Think about it this way:
All beings who can change their minds cannot be trusted
Wondering04 is a being
Wondering04 cannot, therefore, be trusted (in anything, mind you!)
It's simply not true that if one can change one's mind, one cannot be trusted. Think about it. If this were true, one wouldn't have to give anymore thought to this other than to say, "Well, people can change their minds; therefore, no one under any circumstance can be trusted." One minute we could decide that someone should live--perhaps our neighbor or even our spouse--and the next minute we could decide they should die. No reason needed. There doesn't have to be; it's already been concluded that if one possesses the capacity to change one's mind, one isn't trustworthy about anything. We can't have our cake and eat it too by saying, "Well, we humans can be trusted in some things, just not everything." Either the logic of the syllogism shown above is in regard to everything, or we're going to have to be very arbitrary deciding in what we beings can and cannot be trusted. After all, some can be trusted never to commit adultery (it's just not an issue to them); others cannot be trusted to not commit adultry. Some can be trusted not to kill their children; others cannot be trusted to not kill their children. Who's to say where it starts and stops. This untrustworthiness has nothing to do, however, with an ability to change one's mind; it has everything to do with a people pretty screwed up in what was otherwise a people made perfectly in the image of God.
The real heart of your concern, I believe, is will God's character (toward you) change? Just because God moves along in history, changing His mind from, say, destroying Nineveh to sparing it, because the people repented (see the book of Jonah where this is exactly what God did), will He one day decide to not have grace on you? Couldn't He decide, "Well, time for wondering04 to die, because I don't love her anymore. Sorry!" That would be character change--something God has quite emphatically stated will never (and can never) change.
It is oftentimes God "changes His mind when people repent. As I noted, Jonah is a classic example of this. Initially, God leaves no room for change: "Jonah, tell the city it's doomed. DOOMED, I tell you, doomed! forty days and that's it! The end, kaput, fin!" Well, the people of Nineveh repent, and God changes His mind ... toward grace! This is frequent in Scripture. Changing His mind, however, to have no compassion, to not be gracious, to not be loving is simply not part of God's character, and hence, is not demonstrated in Scripture.
God has demonstrated Himself to be willing to forgive, not hold grudges. He's demonstrated Himself to give another chance, not take away our chances. He's demonstrated Himself to be gracious and not whimsically capable of being ungracious--untrusted, therefore, because He can change His mind. The only time God calls doom on a city and does NOT change His mind is when the people of that city do not and will not repent. Only then is the final recourse destruction and judgement. Even then, it is in love that He must do so; love that is consistent with a character that always wants the best for someone, always wishes the best for someone, always desires a heart that will repent and learn, and always just.
Look at the wonderful assurance noted in Hebrew 6:17-18 "Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability (NKJV reference: "unchangeableness of His purpose") of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable (NKVV reference: "unchangeable") things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
No, He won't change His mind in regard to His character. Never!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 2/10/2004 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Good discussion, folks.
I'd like to add my two cents by suggesting that if we take the notion of an infinitely intelligent God seriously, then the idea of God "changing his mind" turns out to be a figurative way of speaking, an anthropathism that open theists ought not to read too much into.
What I mean is this, if God is infinitely intelligent then he has always already anticipated ALL possibilities. What this means is that God, like an infinitely intelligent chess master, can plan for ALL contingencies before the game has even started. Thus we can think of God's knowledge without creation as consisting of:
(1) A knowledge of all possible states of affairs and the causal dependencies among them.
(2) A knowledge of all that is settled, of all that he has sovereignly determined to be the case.
(3) With respect to whatever has not been settled, he has a complete set of conditional resolutions of the form "If state of affairs S obtains, then I will respond by doing X."
We can group these conditional resolutions into sets based on how God responds to relevantly similar situations. For example, God resolves to respond Xly if a certain range of states of affairs {S1, S2, S3} obtains, and Yly if a different range of states of affairs obtains {S4, S5, S6}. Thus, there is one set of conditional resolutions in which God responds Xly and a different set in which he responds Yly.
Furthermore, let's say that a certain set of conditional resolutions in "in effect" at time t0 if God believes at t0 that it is highly probable that one of the states of affairs in that set will obtain.
Thus, I suggest that when the Bible depicts God as "changing his mind" we read this as saying that, due to a change of circumstances which effects a change in God's assessment of which states of affairs are most likely to obtain, the set of conditional resolutions in which God responds Xly that was in effect at t0 is no longer in effect at t1, and a different set of conditional resolutions in which God responds differently is in effect.
In short, I don't think an infinitely intelligent God would ever need to literally "change his mind". What changes, rather, is the set of God's conditional resolutions that are in effect due to changes in God's assessment of which states of affairs are most likely to obtain.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/10/2004 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Good point, Alan.
The effect of God's movement in the context of conditional resolutions--the change from one to another as necessary--creates the illusion that God can change His mind. It truly is not a change of mind as we change our minds; we do not operate with a knowldge of all possibilities, a knowledge of all truth and a belief in nothing false.
On a side note, something I just thought about is the book of Job. God initiates the conversation with Satan about Job:
"Say, have you seen my servant Job. Quite the faithful dude, eh!"
Satan responds: "No, you've just hedged him in, that's all. Let me at 'em and we'll see just how faithful he is."
Now, what's interesting here is that it would seem that Satan would know if a) the future is completely settled; and b) if the future is settled, wouldn't Satan have been tipped of that there's no way he could get Job to abandon his faith once God stated Job's faith would not be shaken? Now, God doesn't come right out and say, "No, Job will never deny me," but the fact that God was willing to allow for a test should have been the heads-up to Satan that God already knew the outcome as settled, if, in fact, the future were settled. Instead, what we see is that it was possible that Job might buckle, not that God knew the future settled as Job will not (which then becomes "cannot") be shaken.
Just a thought.
Starkman
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Heather: Question: Can God be trusted because He can change His mind?
Answer: Can I be trusted because I can change my mind?
Actually humans can only be trusted so far.
Tom: True, but this has nothing to do with the mere fact that we are able to change our minds. It's not the capability to change one's mind that causes us to be less than completely trustworthy. It's our characters, our selfishness, etc., that causes us to change our minds about promises that is why other cannot completely trust us.
Let me put it this way, Heather. If you could prove that God is incapable of changing his mind, you would not have MORE of a reason to trust him. For knowing he can't change his mind about you doesn't tell you what crap God may have unalterably planned for you. It's not about the ability to change his mind that's behind your concern. It's the character of God you're wondering about.
Heather: What can we really rely on?
Tom: Tell me, what do you NEED to rely on? Do you need a God who is incapable of changing his mind? Will that make you feel better? If you knew your husband was incapable of changing his mind under any circumstance, would you trust him more? Let's say you gave him $10,000.00 to invest in some stock that was going up and up. He made up his mind to go by the broker's office after work and give him the check. But on his way to the broker's office the stock plummets and you telephone, "Hunny, I just heard the stock plummeted! Don't go through with the $10,000.00 on that stock, please!" Your husband says, "Sorry, I can't change my mind. I will invest in this loser stock regardless of the change in fortune. Sorry." Would you trust such a person to invest your money? No. The ability to change one's mind is a GOOD thing. It's our lousy characters as humans that hurts others, not the ability to change.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/11/2004 3:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Jo-Anne,
Yes, I think being able to pray to the Father believing it will have some sort of effect to change things is a strong, strong testimony to how we live our lives elsewhere; we do not live among each other or toward God as if, "Well, it's all settled; guess I'll pray (as being already settled) and watch whatever outcome come about that's already settled." Someone might respond to this by saying, "Well, if you don't pray then what is settled if you do pray won't happen." In other word, if I don't pray to the Father, then what happens after not having prayed is what's settled. So, choose which "settled" future you wish to go with: one in which you pray and make a change, or one in which you don't pray and, thus, have still made a change. Either way, we find that God moves as we move. The future is simply not exaustively settled. Prayer changes things (and so does not praying!).
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 2/11/2004 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | I think it is important to say that in the long run God's ultimate purposes will never be thwarted, in the sense that God's ultimate purpose in creation, redemption, and restoration of the image of God in "whosoever will" is unalterable.
However, as the Scriptures demonstrate time and again, God's proximate purposes/dealings with mankind are able to be changed when God has sufficient reason to alter thise immediate plans and purposes. The infinite intelligence argument I think does provide the lens through which we should view God changing his mind.
However, in the biblical narratives where God is said to change his mind, it seems quite clear that God makes a definitive decision to go in a different direction (proximate means to His ultimate purpose/end) with regard to the individuals in question (such as the whole world in Gen. 6, King Saul in 1 Sam. 15, or the Ninevites in Jonah 3) than he had originally intended, solely due to the human response in each situation.
It's not that God had no idea things might turn out the way they did, just the he "hoped always" as 1 Cor. 13 says, and had been working to bring about his desired results, though in such cases his proximate purposes were in fact thwarted due to voluntary human actions.
In the case of Nineveh, it was a VERY GOOD thing that God's proximate purpose (destruction) was able to be averted by the people's repentance, just as it is in the case of all rebels against God's righteous rule. He's still not willing that any should perish, but that all might be brought to repentance.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/11/2004 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Geebob, please explain how God cannot forgive us if He cannot change His mind. I would say that God doesn't change His mind, and yet He can forgive us. There is no contradiction here. That is why Christ is so glorious. In God choosing to forgive the elect He sent Christ to bear our sins, because God cannot simply let sin go unpunished. All punishment that was directed at me, Christ took, God didn't change His mind, especially if Christ was predestined before the foundations of the world. Your argument doesn't make sense and I would like to hear more about it if you have the time.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/11/2004 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | jo-anne to answer your post on prayer and what is the point if God doesn't change His mind. a quick several fold response.
1) We are commanded to prayer. Christ prayed in the Garden and contrary to what people may think, I think we can well resolve ourselves to the fact that while in the garden Christ's death by the cross was inevitable (even sanders i think would hold to this one), and yet He prayed that the cup pass Him. If Jesus prayed for such things, so should we.
2) The only way we are ever truly praying is when God extends His grace towards us to allow ourselves to humble ourselves. God gives us the ability to pray and even then, we don't know how to pray. But the Spirit intercedes for us.
3) God could use my prayers as a means to bring my unsaved friend to faith. Not only does God determine things, He also determines the means by which His will is accomplished.
4) We should never ever ask, "Why must we pray?" Instaed we should delight in the fact that God allows us to pray. This is a privelege not a right! We should be ever so thankful that God allows us to pray to Him and that perhaps He has determined our prayers as means to accomplish His will.
5) I do not think the ultimate goal in prayer is to be answered in the way that you want. I think it is a thing in which God uses to humble us before Him, once again allowing us to realize our fallen sinful state and our need for Him. Ultimatley, it is to glorify Him.
Tom I was curious by your idea about how we grew up with the classical thinking God. i did not. I grew up in a house that loved free will. I never heard of Calvinism until i think i was in 10 or 11th grade. I grew up under much of the same ideals in which OV's hold. To me, it's hard to break free from the OV into the more glorious and comforting view of the classical God.
Grace and Peace to all,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/11/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: Tom I was curious by your idea about how we grew up with the classical thinking God. i did not. I grew up in a house that loved free will. I never heard of Calvinism until i think i was in 10 or 11th grade. I grew up under much of the same ideals in which OV's hold. To me, it's hard to break free from the OV into the more glorious and comforting view of the classical God.
Tom: Sorry for not being clear. I was referring to the traditional belief that whatever happens in the world was either specifically determined by God (Calvinism) or specifically allowed by God (Arminianism). If we grow up believing in God at all it's with this belief. (Even those who grow up choosing not to believe in God, it's this God they start out rejecting.) But in both Calvinism and Arminisim (and the folks in between who pick and choose from these), what's "classical" is the belief that with every occurence of evil it's the case that God believed it was better that the evil occur than that it not occur, hence there's no real "change of mind" from God's point of view. His mind is eternally made up regarding the whole of history. And this is believed to provide a basis of trust for people who grew up believing it. The proof is in this thread. People feel that if God changes his mind he's LESS trustworthy than if he can't change his mind.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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