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markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 2/20/2004 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

Well? Are there any? (of a philosophical nature) From what I have read, science seems inconclusive, but I haven't really explored the philosophical literature.

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 2/20/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6)

Are you looking for arguments for physical indeterminism, or for libertarian free will?

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 2/20/2004 10:17 PM (GMT -6)

I'm not sure. I wasn't thinking specifically of libertarian free will, but that would be the obvious place to lead on to.

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 2/20/2004 10:19 PM (GMT -6)

(I don't really want arguments such as "I feel I have an ability to choose freely so I must have libertarian free will")

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 2/21/2004 3:24 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry mark that doesn't work. that would almost be equivelant to say that i feel i'm perfect, so i must be perfect. our experiences and senses can and do mislead us quite often.
blessings,
borg

"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 2/21/2004 3:53 AM (GMT -6)

Borg, your statement is true enough as it goes. Sometimes our experiences are distorted by lack of knowledge or pride. But the subjective experience of actually having choices seems to me to be a good place to start the free will debate...

If first hand experiences are always deceptive, can you be sure that God loves you? Perhaps we should not believe God on the basis of the internal witness of the Holy Spirit if we can't trust experiences.

Doc has an excellent chapter on the problem of free will in SATPOE. It's a good place to start, and he references several works if you would like to go deeper into the subject. (I just picked up "The Significance of Free Will" by Kane cos of how Doc uses it in his book)

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 2/21/2004 7:22 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by borg

Sorry mark that doesn't work. that would almost be equivelant to say that i feel i'm perfect, so i must be perfect. our experiences and senses can and do mislead us quite often.
blessings,
borg

I wasn't implying that it did necessarily work.

anewbeginning
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88

Posted 2/22/2004 1:01 AM (GMT -6)

Hi:

You might find this interesting.

www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwVariousKane.html

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